Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

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edatoakrun

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Avoiding the insurmountable (?) obstacle of developing hydrogen infrastructure by using alternate fuels has been proposed by many Fuel Cell advocates, but Nissan may be the first vehicle manufacturer to offer a practical alternative.

IMO, Nissan would be wise to utilize this technology primarily as a range extender for its BEVx vehicles of all sizes.

Electricity from the grid off-peak will always be much cheaper (and in terms of total environmental impact, usually "cleaner") that ethanol or any other hydrocarbon fuel.

Nissan to develop ethanol-based fuel cell technology by 2020

...Nissan said its technology would be ready for use in vehicles in 2020, adding it could be used to extend the range of larger, electric vehicles such as delivery vans.

It would target a cruising range of around 800 kilometers per fuelling, more than the range for gasoline-powered vehicles of just over 600 kilometers.

The automaker said running costs for the FCVs would be roughly similar to those of electric vehicles, while declining to give details on vehicle pricing...

Unlike its rivals' offerings, Nissan's technology does not require hydrogen to be stored in vehicles, reducing the need for expensive bulky hydrogen tanks, and would not require fuelling stations, which have been slow to spread globally...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-nissan-fuelcells-idUSKCN0Z01BG

From the press release, below:

Jun. 14, 2016

Nissan announces development of the world’s first SOFC-powered vehicle system that runs on bio-ethanol electric power



YOKOHAMA, Japan – Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. announced today that it is currently researching and developing a Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell (SOFC)-powered system that runs on bio-ethanol electric power. The new system –­ a world first for automotive use – features an e-Bio Fuel-Cell with an SOFC power generator. SOFC is a fuel cell utilizing the reaction of multiple fuels, including ethanol and natural gas, with oxygen to produce electricity with high efficiency.

About e-Bio Fuel-Cell
The e-Bio Fuel Cell generates electricity through the SOFC (power generator) using bio-ethanol stored in the vehicle. The e-Bio Fuel-Cell uses hydrogen transformed from fuel via a reformer and atmospheric oxygen, with the subsequent electrochemical reaction producing electricity to power the vehicle.

Unlike conventional systems, e-Bio Fuel-Cell features SOFC as its power source, affording greater power efficiency to give the vehicle cruising ranges similar to gasoline-powered cars (more than 600km). In addition, the e-Bio Fuel-Cell car's distinct electric-drive features — including silent drive, linear start-up and brisk acceleration — allow users to enjoy the joys and comfort of a pure electric vehicle (EV).

Fuel-cell systems use chemicals that react with oxygen, generating power without release of harmful byproducts. Bio-ethanol fuels, including those sourced from sugarcane and corn, are widely available in countries in North and South America, and Asia. The e-Bio Fuel-Cell, using bio-ethanol, can offer eco-friendly transportation and create opportunities in regional energy production, while supporting existing infrastructure.

When power is generated in a fuel-cell system, CO2 is usually emitted. With the bio-ethanol system, CO2 emissions are neutralized from the growing process of sugarcane making up the bio-fuel, allowing it to have a "Carbon-Neutral Cycle," with nearly no CO2 increase whatsoever...

The e-Bio Fuel-Cell will realize the concept of "Nissan Intelligent Power," promoting greater efficiency and electrification of cars and the joys of driving, alongside battery EVs, such as the Nissan LEAF, Nissan e-NV200 and "e-Power," which is equipped with an engine housing an exclusive large-capacity motor and power generator...
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-development-of-the-world-s-first-sofc-powered-vehicle-system-that-runs-on-bio-ethanol-electric-power
 
GCC reports on the obstacles to SOFCs which Nissan claims to have overcome, and advantages over the present HFC vehicles:

Nissan developing electric vehicles powered by ethanol-fueled solid oxide fuel cells; commercialization in 2020

...Because of their fuel-flexibility (i.e., no need for a dedicated hydrogen production and refueling infrastructure), solid oxide fuel cells have been of interest for transportation applications—especially as APUs or in lower power situations, for years...

SOFC systems pose a number of challenges, especially for automotive, however. Because they run at higher temperatures than the PEM fuel cells typically currently used in automotive applications, there is a need for high performance, low cost insulation; robust balance-of-plant components; and fast startup and thermal cycling....

The solid oxide fuel then generates electricity via the reaction of hydrogen with oxygen from the air. Oxygen ions move through the fuel cell’s electrolyte, generating power. A benefit of the high operating temperature is that a highly active catalyst is not necessary; no rare metals are needed...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/06/20160614-nissan.html

A prototype "you can drive" is reported to be only a few months off:


Kampai: Nissan's Alcohol-Powered System Answers The Big Fuel Cell Question


Nissan today showed off a fuel cell system that could overcome the main drawback of current hydrogen fuel cell systems: how to get the hydrogen to the car. Nissan’s system uses readily available ethanol alcohol. An on-board “reformer” converts the ethanol to hydrogen. In the fuel cell stack, the hydrogen is converted to electric power.

“In August, we will have a prototype you can drive,” Nissan EVP Hideyuki Sakamoto promised the reporters at Nissan’s global headquarters in Yokohama. The first commercial cars powered by the system are expected around 2020...

The system reuses the heat generated in the hydrogen stack to power the reformer, which the company expects to give the new system a thermal efficiency rating of up to 60%...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/06/14/kampai-nissans-alcohol-powered-system-answers-the-big-fuel-cell-question/#756e09804a44
 
TonyWilliams said:
I'm surprised nobody thought this was significant...
I'm sure those EV manufacture's who have invested heavily in HFCVs, like Toyota, or humongous-battery-pack BEVs like Tesla, think this story is very significant, and are hoping Nissan will not be able to follow-up on its claims.

Because if Nissan can, it will probably destroy those companies' business plans...

For anyone who did not follow the links I posted above, I want to emphasize that it seems very likely to me that Nissan will have a significant battery pack in all its EVs, including those equipped with SOFCs, so you will be able to charge the pack from (and soon I hope, also discharge to) the grid.

The big question is, will the first SOFC car's FC be sized as a range extender, designed to charge as you drive, which might be as small as five to ten kW, will it be sized for a PHEV like the Volt, using a FC with ~ten times that output, allowing ~normal driving after battery depletion, or will the kW output be somewhere in between, like a BMW i-3rex?
 
TonyWilliams said:
I'm surprised nobody thought this was significant.
It is an interesting approach. Here are some potential benefits:

- No high-pressure gaseous fuel tank. Instead, it takes a room-temperature, well-understood liquid, so it should be significantly safer.
- Inexpensive fuel.
- No precious metals in the fuel cell.

For reference, here is the image from the Forbes article:

ethanol-cell.png


Here are some concerns:

- No details are given for the Nissan ethanol reformer. I've seen a real-life reformer for converting natural gas (methane) into H2 and it was huge and complicated. The manufacturer was never able to reduce the size and cost sufficiently to meet the market demands. It will be interesting to see what Nissan has here.
- Where to get the ethanol? Corn is not a great source since the EROEI is around unity. That means valuable farmland is consumed while additional fuel is not produced. If the efficiency of this system is really 60% (average) then that will help some, but not a lot. OTOH, ethanol can apparently be made from sugarcane with an EROEI of about 8, so this might be a good fit for countries which can grow sugarcane.
 
Great, so instead of powering cars with petroleum we'll use it to grow corn for ethanol and deplete our topsoil in the process.
 
Nubo said:
Great, so instead of powering cars with petroleum we'll use it to grow corn for ethanol and deplete our topsoil in the process.
We already are burning a huge quantity of ethanol, blended with gasoline, in our ICEVs.

I expect we could get two to three times the miles per gallon of ethanol with a SOFC (which are theoretically even more efficient than HFCs) as we currently get by burning the same ethanol (mixed with gasoline) in ICEVs.

So if the SOFCV's battery packs are correctly sized and are charged from the grid, and use ethanol primarily for occasional fast-refueling on longer trips, it could be possible to drive ~the same miles we now do in ICEVs, eliminating gasoline from the equation, while using ~the same amount of ethanol we now burn so inefficiently in ICEVs.

Nissan mentions the SOFCs can run on many other hydrocarbon fuels, but ethanol is likely the best option, given the existing infrastructure and inherent relative safety of the fuel.

The biggest problem with a vehicular pure ethanol or ethanol/water blend infrastructure, will probably be with people diverting the fuel to other purposes...
 
edatoakrun said:
So if the SOFCV's battery packs are correctly sized and are charged from the grid, and use ethanol primarily for occasional fast-refueling on longer trips, it could be possible to drive ~the same miles we now do in ICEVs, eliminating gasoline from the equation, while using ~the same amount of ethanol we now burn so inefficiently in ICEVs.
Agreed this is an attractive approach. It allows for a very smooth transition without the massive infrastructure expenditure required to deploy H2 FCVs. (I will repeat that Hyundai's, Toyota's and Honda's failure to build pluggable hybrids belies their real motivation for building these vehicles: to collect CARB credits.)

I find it nteresting that you only need 100 Proof alcohol to run these vehicles instead of 200 Proof. That should make distillation significantly cheaper. I do wonder how difficult it will be to sufficiently eliminate impurities from the alcohol to prevent poisoning the reformer and the fuel cell.
 
edatoakrun said:
Nubo said:
Great, so instead of powering cars with petroleum we'll use it to grow corn for ethanol and deplete our topsoil in the process.
We already are burning a huge quantity of ethanol, blended with gasoline, in our ICEVs.

I expect we could get two to three times the miles per gallon of ethanol with a SOFC (which are theoretically even more efficient than HFCs) as we currently get by burning the same ethanol (mixed with gasoline) in ICEVs.

So if the SOFCV's battery packs are correctly sized and are charged from the grid, and use ethanol primarily for occasional fast-refueling on longer trips, it could be possible to drive ~the same miles we now do in ICEVs, eliminating gasoline from the equation, while using ~the same amount of ethanol we now burn so inefficiently in ICEVs.

Nissan mentions the SOFCs can run on many other hydrocarbon fuels, but ethanol is likely the best option, given the existing infrastructure and inherent relative safety of the fuel.

The biggest problem with a vehicular pure ethanol or ethanol/water blend infrastructure, will probably be with people diverting the fuel to other purposes...

"It's good for 2 things. Degreasing engines, and killing brain cells." - Cipher, "The Matrix"

Heh. But good point about the relative efficiencies. Could change the petroleum ROE. Right now it can take more petroleum energy to make ethanol than the ethanol delivers.
 
Driving prototype on display.

Notice the 24 kWh battery pack.

If I had this drivetrain in my LEAF (and E100 available at gas stations) I would have up to ~400 mile range between fuel stops, and drive all year on ~2,000 kWh, and a few dozen gallons of ethanol.

Far superior alternative to Bolt or Tesla 3 of having to cram an overpriced, overweight, and oversized pack in your BEV, if (like most drivers) you only need range > 100 miles occasionally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF-eE8pRzMw
Aug 4, 2016
Nissan unveils world's first Solid-Oxide Fuel Cell vehicle



YOKOHAMA, Japan – In Brazil today, Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. today revealed the world's first Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell (SOFC)-powered prototype vehicle that runs on bio-ethanol electric power.

Nissan president and CEO Carlos Ghosn said: “The e-Bio Fuel-Cell offers eco-friendly transportation and creates opportunities for regional energy production…all the while supporting the existing infrastructure. In the future, the e-Bio Fuel-Cell will become even more user-friendly. Ethanol-blended water is easier and safer to handle than most other fuels. Without the need to create new infrastructure, it has great potential to drive market growth.”

The fuel cell prototype forms part of Nissan’s ongoing commitment to the development of zero-emission vehicles. Nissan already sells the world’s highest-volume zero-emission car, the LEAF, and is pioneering Intelligent Mobility systems that will be deployed in a range of vehicles over coming years.

In this latest zero-emission development, the e-Bio Fuel-Cell prototype vehicle runs on 100-percent ethanol to charge a 24kWh battery that enables a cruising range of more than 600km. Nissan will conduct further field tests on public roads in Brazil using the prototype.

Research and development of the e-Bio Fuel-Cell was announced by Nissan in June in Yokohama. The powertrain is clean, highly efficient, easy to supply, and it runs on 100-percent ethanol or ethanol-blended water. Its carbon-neutral emissions are as clean as the atmosphere, which will be the part of natural carbon cycle. Also, the e-Bio Fuel-Cell offers the brisk acceleration and silent driving of an EV, along with its low-running costs, while boasting the driving range of a gasoline-engine vehicle.


Bio-ethanol fuels are mainly sourced from sugarcane and corn. These fuels are widely available in countries in North and South America, which feature widely established infrastructure. Due to the easy availability of ethanol and low combustibility of ethanol-blended water, the system is not heavily dependent or restricted by the existing charging infrastructure, making it easy to introduce to the market. In the future, people may only need to stop by small retail stores to buy fuel off the shelf.
In pursuit of realizing a zero-emission and zero-fatality society for cars, Nissan continues to promote vehicle intelligence and electrification. Nissan's brand promise of "Innovation That Excites" is delivered with "Nissan Intelligent Mobility," which focuses on how cars are powered, driven and integrated into society through a more enjoyable driving experience.

The e-Bio Fuel-Cell will realize the concept of "Nissan Intelligent Power," promoting greater efficiency and electrification of cars and the joys of driving alongside battery EVs, such as the Nissan LEAF, Nissan e-NV200, and e-Power, which is equipped with an engine housing an exclusive large-capacity motor and power generator.

Nissan will continue to provide value to its customers by incorporating systems that enable the extraction of electric power from various fuels, while addressing the infrastructure issues tied to energy supply in every region of the world.

Solid-Oxide Fuel Cell vehicle Specifications
•Base Vehicle: e-NV200
•Battery Capacity: 24kWh
•Energy Source: Electricity, Ethanol
•Tank Capacity: 30L
•SOFC Output: 5kW
•Driving Range: 600km-plus

*Due to being a prototype vehicle, specifications are subject to change.
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-unveils-world-s-first-solid-oxide-fuel-cell-vehicle
 
edatoakrun said:
Driving prototype on display.

Notice the 24 kWh battery pack.

If I had this drivetrain in my LEAF (and E100 available at gas stations) I would have up to ~400 mile range between fuel stops, and drive all year on ~2,000 kWh, and a few dozen gallons of ethanol.

Far superior alternative to Bolt or Tesla 3 of having to cram an overpriced, overweight, and oversized pack in your BEV, if (like most drivers) you only need range > 100 miles occasionally.

Sounds like you practically just talked yourself into buy a Volt. Are we so allergic to gasoline that we are blind to the fact that others are going to continue to burn it regardless? The Volt using a few dozen gallons of gasoline per year is a drop in the bucket. And you can buy a used one today for a great price, rather than wait potentially forever until 1) Nissan builds this car and 2) E100 is readily available.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
edatoakrun said:
Driving prototype on display.

Notice the 24 kWh battery pack.

If I had this drivetrain in my LEAF (and E100 available at gas stations) I would have up to ~400 mile range between fuel stops, and drive all year on ~2,000 kWh, and a few dozen gallons of ethanol.

Far superior alternative to Bolt or Tesla 3 of having to cram an overpriced, overweight, and oversized pack in your BEV, if (like most drivers) you only need range > 100 miles occasionally.

Sounds like you practically just talked yourself into buy a Volt. Are we so allergic to gasoline that we are blind to the fact that others are going to continue to burn it regardless? The Volt using a few dozen gallons of gasoline per year is a drop in the bucket. And you can buy a used one today for a great price, rather than wait potentially forever until 1) Nissan builds this car and 2) E100 is readily available.
The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination.

The Volts very short range per kWh of battery pack is a particular problem for me, as virtually all my trips are over 50 miles.

It's true GM is currently discounting Volt leases at far below their production costs, and I could get one cheaper than I could a new LEAF.

I don't need the money that badly, though...
 
edatoakrun said:
GetOffYourGas said:
Sounds like you practically just talked yourself into buy a Volt. Are we so allergic to gasoline that we are blind to the fact that others are going to continue to burn it regardless? The Volt using a few dozen gallons of gasoline per year is a drop in the bucket. And you can buy a used one today for a great price, rather than wait potentially forever until 1) Nissan builds this car and 2) E100 is readily available.
The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination.

The Volts very short range per kWh of battery pack is a particular problem for me, as virtually all my trips are over 50 miles.

It's true GM is currently discounting Volt leases at far below their production costs, and I could get one cheaper than I could a new LEAF.

I don't need the money that badly, though...
If that's really a 24kWh pack it seems likely that this is a PHFCEV, as that seems excessive capacity if it's just used for accel and dumping regen as an FCHEV.
 
="GRA"
="edatoakrun" ...The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination...
If that's really a 24kWh pack it seems likely that this is a PHFCEV, as that seems excessive capacity if it's just used for accel and dumping regen as an FCHEV.
All indications are that you are mistaken, and Nissan is intent on using the SOFC in a BEVx, not planning on just another PHEV design.

The relatively small 5 kW SOFC operates as a generator range extender for the battery pack (as does the generator in all BEVXs) so that it does not exact the large penalties in cost and inefficiency that all PHEVs suffer from, due to their redundant traction power plants.

Solid-Oxide Fuel Cell vehicle Specifications
•Base Vehicle: e-NV200
•Battery Capacity: 24kWh
•Energy Source: Electricity, Ethanol
•Tank Capacity: 30L
•SOFC Output: 5kW
•Driving Range: 600km-plus
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-unveils-world-s-first-solid-oxide-fuel-cell-vehicle
 
edatoakrun said:
="GRA"
="edatoakrun" ...The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination...
If that's really a 24kWh pack it seems likely that this is a PHFCEV, as that seems excessive capacity if it's just used for accel and dumping regen as an FCHEV.
All indications are that you are mistaken, and Nissan is intent on using the SOFC in a BEVx, not planning on just another PHEV design.

The relatively small 5 kW SOFC operates as a generator range extender for the battery pack (as does the generator in all BEVXs) so that it does not exact the large penalties in cost and inefficiency that all PHEVs suffer from, due to their redundant traction power plants.

Solid-Oxide Fuel Cell vehicle Specifications
•Base Vehicle: e-NV200
•Battery Capacity: 24kWh
•Energy Source: Electricity, Ethanol
•Tank Capacity: 30L
•SOFC Output: 5kW
•Driving Range: 600km-plus
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-unveils-world-s-first-solid-oxide-fuel-cell-vehicle
Ah, it's a question of semantics. I count all PHEVs, including what you call BEVxs, as PHEVs (or PHFCEVs in this case). So it seems we're both correct. For a mostly local delivery van that probably makes sense, and Renault did it that way for their PHFCEV postal vans. For general purpose cars that will be used for road trips 5 kw seems way too small, but I'm sure this is mainly a development/proof of concept vehicle for now, and a long way from the final product(s).
 
="GRA"
...Ah, it's a question of semantics. I count all PHEVs, including what you call BEVxs, as PHEVs (or PHFCEVs in this case)...
You should learn to count more accurately...

A PHEV uses gasoline fuel for traction power, a concept perpetrated by ICEV manufactures who want to continue to use their off-the-shelf gasoline-fueled ICE drivetrains, installed in "electrified" vehicles, to be sold in small numbers.

A BEVx is a BEV, with an efficient on-board charger using a fuel with far greater energy density than batteries, only for those exceptional long trips where huge batter packs are (presently) undesirable, due to low energy density, and the impracticality and high cost of reliable rapid public DC charging.

The particular attractiveness of ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology in a BEVx is that is allows on-board energy generation at efficiency rates as high or higher than conventional grid generation, using a stable, safe, and convenient fuel, with (nearly) complete existing infrastructure.

quote="GRA" ...For a mostly local delivery van that probably makes sense, and Renault did it that way for their PHFCEV postal vans. For general purpose cars that will be used for road trips 5 kw seems way too small...
I do the vast majority of my own rural/mountain driving trips at less than 5 kW (average) rates, so I might actually prefer a SOFC ~ that size.

It's true that for uninterrupted high speed driving, more than 5 kW might be desirable, but of course you might instead want a slightly larger than ~21 kWh battery, of 25 to 35 (available) kWh capacity.

A ~35 kWh available pack with only a 5 kW SOFC should outrange a ~54 kW (Available) Tesla 3 or Bolt between recharges at constant freeway speed, and have much longer range than either for trips of lower average speed.

Whether the output is ~5kW or ~10 kW, the opportunity to have completely reliable charging while you drive is an incredible advantage of a BEVx over any BEV that you must stop to recharge.

="GRA"...but I'm sure this is mainly a development/proof of concept vehicle for now, and a long way from the final product(s).
At ~4 minutes in, you can watch the rather bulky prototype SOFC being loaded into the van:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12ovNytBpI4
 
edatoakrun said:
="GRA"
...Ah, it's a question of semantics. I count all PHEVs, including what you call BEVxs, as PHEVs (or PHFCEVs in this case)...
You should learn to count more accurately...

A PHEV uses gasoline fuel for traction power, an inherently silly idea perpetrated by ICEV manufactures who want to continue to use their off-the-shelf gasoline-fueled ICE drivetrains, installed in "electrified" vehicles, to be sold in small numbers.

A BEVx is a BEV, with an efficient on-board charger using a fuel with far greater energy density than batteries, only for those exceptional long trips where huge batter packs are (presently) undesirable, due to low energy density, and the impracticality and high cost of reliable rapid public DC charging.
Actually, a PHEV CAN use gasoline fuel for traction power; how much it does so is determined by the particulars of the design (serial vs. parallel vs. both, set points etc.), which is why a BEVx is just a sub-type of PHEV. However, we're obviously not going to agree on that, so we'll just have to go our separate ways, definitionally speaking.

edatoakrun said:
The particular attractiveness of ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology in a BEVx is that is allows on-board energy generation at efficiency rates as high or higher than conventional grid generation, using a stable, safe, and convenient fuel, with (nearly) complete existing infrastructure.
Agreed on the uses (mostly) existing infrastructure bit, and 'stable' and 'convenient', although 'safe' is a bit questionable given issues of leaks to groundwater, and 'sustainable' is highly dependent on the details. Brazil's probably the best place to try it out given the relative EROEI of sugar cane to ethanol.

edatoakrun said:
GRA said:
...For a mostly local delivery van that probably makes sense, and Renault did it that way for their PHFCEV postal vans. For general purpose cars that will be used for road trips 5 kw seems way too small...
I do the vast majority of my own rural/mountain driving trips at less than 5 kW (average) rates, so I might actually prefer a SOFC ~ that size.

It's true that for uninterrupted high speed driving, more than 5 kW might be desirable, but of course you might instead want a slightly larger than ~21 kWh battery, of 25 to 35 (available) kWh capacity.

A ~35 kWh available pack with only a 5 kW SOFC should outrange a ~54 kW (Available) Tesla 3 or Bolt between recharges at constant freeway speed, and have much longer range than either for trips of lower average speed.

Whether the output is ~5kW or ~10 kW, the opportunity to have completely reliable charging while you drive is an incredible advantage of a BEVx over any BEV that you must stop to recharge.
You seem to be confusing me with someone who'd argue that a BEV is superior to a PHEV (or BEVx, as you prefer) for such trips, and as I've been advocating for PHEVs (my def.) over BEVs here for years as better all-around cars given the current capabilities of each, that's not the case. Re the size of the 'generator', for a road trip car I think it needs to be powerful enough to cruise at the maximum speed limit (85 mph in the U.S.) against some headwind and/or slight rise, say 5 mph or a 1% slope, without using the battery. Hauling a too-big battery adds to weight and cost, and reduces available volume too much, although the ideal balance between them will obviously vary from use case to use case. What's clear is that the 34 hp (25kW) Rex in the i3 lacks sufficient power to manage that, topping out a bit over 70 mph before it can't keep up. Even allowing for a more slippery shape, the extra 15-20 mph cruise needed (47% more drag @ 85) is going to require a considerably more powerful 'generator'. I'm convinced that GM made the right decision with the Volt 2 for the general public, when they opted to increase the power output of the ICE, and I'm less convinced that boosting the battery size was the right move, although that's what the early adopters wanted. Ford's selling plenty of Fusion and C-Max Energies with half the Volt's battery pack and the Sonata PHEV's slowly picking up steam as well (even though they need to offer a de-contented version, as it should be cheaper than the Volt).

="GRA"...but I'm sure this is mainly a development/proof of concept vehicle for now, and a long way from the final product(s).
At ~4 minutes in, you can watch the rather bulky prototype SOFC being loaded into the van:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12ovNytBpI4[/quote]
Yeah, seen it. I could also watch the video of the Volt concept being unveiled, but that wouldn't tell me all that much about the eventual production car. Concepts, prototypes and test mules are just that.
 
GRA said:
...Re the size of the 'generator', for a road trip car I think it needs to be powerful enough to cruise at the maximum speed limit (85 mph in the U.S.) against some headwind and/or slight rise, say 5 mph or a 1% slope, without using the battery...
And that is the fundamental misconception, shared by many.

Why would anyone want to be driving a vehicle equipped with a battery and NOT use it?

The obvious utility of any on-board generator is to charge the battery pack sufficiently so that it is never fully depleted by normal driving patterns, and so always has sufficient charge to drive the vehicle for the longest non-stop trips required.

And for passenger cars, a 20 to 40 kWh battery pack, recharged by a 5 to 10 kW generator during longer trips, is sufficient for nearly all drivers' needs.
 
The website of one of Nissan's partners in the SOFC development gives more background of why it may be practical for vehicular use.

CERES POWER TO DEMONSTRATE ITS SOFC STACK TECHNOLOGY FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLE RANGE EXTENDER


28 June 2016

Ceres Power Holdings Plc
(“Ceres Power”, “Ceres” or the “Company”)

CERES POWER TO DEMONSTRATE ITS SOFC STACK TECHNOLOGY FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLE RANGE EXTENDER

Ceres Power Holdings plc (AIM:CWR) is pleased to announce it has now finalised all agreements to begin its new relationship with Nissan Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd and M-Solv, as part of the funding arrangement from Innovate UK and The Office for Low Emission Vehicles (“OLEV”) as previously announced on 22nd March 2016.

Ceres Power is the leader of this consortium, with Nissan and M-Solv, aimed at developing a compact, on-board solid oxide fuel cell (“SOFC”) stack for range extension of electric vehicles. The SOFC stack is based on Ceres Power’s unique SteelCell technology, which is able to work with a variety of high efficiency fuel types (including biofuels) applicable to the automotive sector. This offers a potential path to significantly accelerate the take up of electric vehicles, reducing CO2 and other emissions, and making significant progress towards the UK’s low carbon energy targets.

Phil Caldwell, Ceres Power’s Chief Executive Officer said:
“We are delighted to be working with Nissan and M-Solv to enable an all-electric vehicle with a longer range and shorter refuelling time and to help cut vehicle emissions globally. In addition, this project broadens the applications for Ceres Power's SteelCell into the automotive industry as well using alternative fuels such as biofuels.”
http://www.cerespower.com/news-media/press-releases/2016-06-28-ceres-power-to-demonstrate-its-sofc-stack-technology-for-electric-vehicle-range-extender

See the video at the link below

Notice the comments on low cost and scalability, at ~1:20.

...What makes the Steel Cell so unique is the fact that it operates at temperatures of 500-600 °C. This allows the use of low cost steel and abundant ceramics with cost-effective mass manufacturing, at the same time as delivering high performance.

We make the Steel Cell by screen printing layers of ceramic ink onto a drilled sheet of steel. Achieving these high quality ceramic layers at low temperature on steel is protected through extensive registered intellectual property and know-how. Exclusive to Ceres is the use of Ceria in the anode and electrolyte. Ceria is as abundant as copper and is used industrially for dyeing glass, self-cleaning ovens and catalytic converters in cars. Steel needs no introduction as the backbone of modern life, used in 75% of household applications.

The Steel Cell is a very efficient way of generating power from gas and can use the existing gas infrastructure. With our technology overall efficiency of fossil fuel use can be improved from around 35-40% up to 80-90%.. This means that regular users could reduce the carbon footprint of their home by 30% and even more for the modern always-on business.

The combination of these factors makes the Steel Cell an efficient, cost effective and cleaner way of giving people control over their energy supply...
http://www.cerespower.com/technology/why-the-steel-cell-is-unique

The 5 kW rate of the prototype Nissan SOFC may be due to that being largest size they have already been working with for residential/ commercial use:

http://www.cerespower.com/partnering-with-us/our-partners

Consider that a SOFC that produces ~5 kW of electricity could also be expected to produce ~3 kW of recoverable thermal energy.

Meaning, a SOFC would have far increased utility in increasing the range of any BEV in colder climate conditions, by providing both battery and cabin heating.

And it would mean you might generally prefer to begin all your Winter trips using the SOFC (even the shorter ones within battery range) to get 80% to 90% total conversion efficiency from your primary hydrocarbon fuel source, rather than ~half that efficiency from grid-supplied and battery-cycled Electricity.
 
edatoakrun said:
GRA said:
...Re the size of the 'generator', for a road trip car I think it needs to be powerful enough to cruise at the maximum speed limit (85 mph in the U.S.) against some headwind and/or slight rise, say 5 mph or a 1% slope, without using the battery...
And that is the fundamental misconception, shared by many.

Why would anyone want to be driving a vehicle equipped with a battery and NOT use it?
To use it at a later time, of course, when ICE pollution will be at the max and efficiency the lowest (which isn't the case in freeway cruising). If I had a PHEV and was driving up to Yosemite, I'd be in EV Hold mode the whole way (except for the short distances passing through towns), and then, depending on the amount of battery range I had, I'd use the battery as much as possible inside the park to minimize local air pollution. With an FCEV (or PHFCEV) it wouldn't matter as both modes are zero emission. Ideally, I'd have an EV Auto mode that would automatically make the switch at a certain speed, which would be settable by me, say <=35 mph off the battery, 36+ with the ICE, or whatever was appropriate for the particular trip.

edatoakrun said:
The obvious utility of any on-board generator is to charge the battery pack sufficiently so that it is never fully depleted by normal driving patterns, and so always has sufficient charge to drive the vehicle for the longest non-stop trips required.

And for passenger cars, a 20 to 40 kWh battery pack, recharged by a 5 to 10 kW generator during longer trips, is sufficient for nearly all drivers' needs.
That may well be, but it isn't the cheapest, lightest or smallest option at the moment, and as the BMW REx shows small engines tend to be quite noisy and vibrate (a fuel cell REx should avoid that). and you have to meet the expectations of the general public if you want mass adoption.
 
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