$10K tax credit or rebate proposal

In 1776 our U.S.A. fathers decided there was a better way and declared a revolution from tyranny . They fought hard and many paid the ultimate price so that we could have a better life.
Today we are in the midst of a revolution. A revolution whose success will bring clean air to billions. Clean air that will save many lives. A revolution that will save us from the tyranny of oil company profits and pollution.
I salute you members of this forum, heroes for helping bring a better life through information and action, and not accepting the status quo.

I encourage you to to continue you efforts to encourage new car buyers to make informed decisions, to come to forums like this and ask questions.

Have started an internet petition to encourage congress to increase the tax credit for larger vehicles. This will in turn help bring more electric cars to a larger market segment of vehicles. Encourage you to debate and continue to take action.

https://www.change.org/p/u-s-federal-government-10k-federal-tax-credit-for-electric-vehicles-with-85kwh-battery-capacity-or-greater

You must be kidding :? :roll: :lol:

You want to increase the $7,500 federal tax credit that the poor and lower to middle "middle class" could only use through leasing, into a $10,000 tax credit for Tesla 85 kWh "buyers" :?:

Are you pairing this with putting the tax system back where Ronald Reagan properly put it, and eliminating the only pay half your taxes system that the "Contract with America" Republicans and Predident Bill Clinton put in place :?:

If so great.
If not, you know what I think about it

TimeLee, thanks for the discussion.
Do you think it is worthwhile to encourage nissan to come out with a 7 passenger electric rougue? Do you think this effort would help or hurt that? How would you do things differently and have it pass in Congress?

+1!

TimLee said:

You must be kidding :? :roll: :lol:

You want to increase the $7,500 federal tax credit that the poor and lower to middle "middle class" could only use through leasing, into a $10,000 tax credit for Tesla 85 kWh "buyers" :?:

Are you pairing this with putting the tax system back where Ronald Reagan properly put it, and eliminating the only pay half your taxes system that the "Contract with America" Republicans and President Bill Clinton put in place :?:

If so great.
If not, you know what I think about it

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Tom, thanks for joining the discussion.
Do you think it is worthwhile to encourage nissan to come out with a 7 passenger electric rougue? Do you think this effort would help or hurt that? How would you do things differently and have it pass in Congress?

I have literally no interest in such a vehicle myself but those who do would likely want to use it as more than just a city vehicle so unless it was a PHEV, I think there would likely be little market for it...

In the current congress, no EV legislation is likely to pass... But anything done in the future MUST be a rebate, not a tax credit...

DanCar said:

Tom, thanks for joining the discussion.
Do you think it is worthwhile to encourage nissan to come out with a 7 passenger electric rougue? Do you think this effort would help or hurt that? How would you do things differently and have it pass in Congress?

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Thanks for the feedback. I changed the petition to "tax credit or rebate".

TomT said:

... But anything done in the future MUST be a rebate, not a tax credit...

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I hope people will be more flexible as I would think that tax credit or rebate would help.

TomT said:

I...In the current congress, no EV legislation is likely to pass... But anything done in the future MUST be a rebate, not a tax credit...

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Or a refundable tax credit, as we do with the state tax credit here.

That said, the chance of any new federal EV incentives is near zero, but with EV prices dropping and capabilities, especially range, increasing over the next few years, I don't think new incentives are really needed. [Although I sure would like to see some sort of a carbon tax in place to reflect some of the considerable external costs of conventional fossil fuel use. Not that it seems likely to happen, given that the fossil fuel industry owns Congress, as well as public opinion.]

Hi dgp,

Does your thinking include that Nissan and GM tax credit will expire in approximately 2018?

DanCar said:

TimLee, thanks for the discussion.
Do you think it is worthwhile to encourage nissan to come out with a 7 passenger electric rougue? Do you think this effort would help or hurt that? How would you do things differently and have it pass in Congress?

Click to expand...

I think it is unlikely at the federal level or at the state of TN level that anything could pass to help subsidize or encourage more use of electric vehicles.

I think more electric or PHEV vans are a good thing, but I think the political reality is they are going to happen or not happen with nothing more than the existing remaining subsidies.

I hope VW comes out with a PHEV version of the new small crossover that they are building a new factory for in Chattanooga.

I like Nissan's EV effort, but the shorter term market demand is for PHEV.
And they have been grossly poor there.
Still no hybrid or PHEV Altima?
Poor.

DanCar said:

Hi dgp,

Does your thinking include that Nissan and GM tax credit will expire in approximately 2018?

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Yes, that seems likely given sales trends, although the phase-out period will last another year, so 2019 at the earliest before the tax credits are completely gone (unless Congress changes things). Tesla, too, is on track to have the tax credit start to phase out in 2018. By then those companies will have the experience and economies of scale that allow them to produce EVs with decent range at a pretty good price.

While the latecomers to the market will have the tax credit advantage over Nissan, GM and Tesla, they will still have to design, and ramp up production, of their competitive EVs. If they even bother to do so. Since the goal of the tax credits is to help sales and entice car manufacturers to produce EVs, more car makers building them will help the EV market overall. IMHO.

The manufacturers are getting tons of credits and benefits at the Federal, state and local level. They either can translate those funds into lower priced vehicles or business will fail. The weird situations with the existing credits to buyers need to be flushed from the system. Imagine the dislocations and wrong decisions if Feds offered for 10 yrs a $150k credit if you bought a home in CA. You would get a ton of activity, but I doubt it would be the right activity

EVs got their training wheels. Now it is time to step up or step off.

mjblazin said:

EVs got their training wheels. Now it is time to step up or step off.

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Wow, petroleum cars still get plenty of subsidizes. The way the political system works, it is easier to continue to offer a polution credit for EVs, then to tax petrol for carcinogens and other direct harmful effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas#Main_motor_vehicle_emissions

California is taking a more equitable route, and removing one of the sticks that the anti-EV crowd can (rightly, IMO) use to beat them. Via GCR:

California Ends Electric-Car Rebates For Wealthiest Buyers, Boosts Them For Poorest

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http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098988_california-ends-electric-car-rebates-for-wealthiest-buyers-boosts-them-for-poorest

. . . The debate over whether wealthy buyers should continue to get electric-car subsidies has simmered in California for some time, and it recently reached a conclusion.

California is adding income-based caps to its rebates for electric cars and plug-in hybrids, according to Cars Direct.

As of July 1, the amount of subsidies buyers receive--or don't receive, as the case may be--will be determined by income.

Until now, the California Clean Vehicle Rebate Program offered incentives of $1,500 for plug-in hybrids, and $2,500 for electric cars.
Now, lower-income households will be able to get substantially more money for certain models.

Those with incomes less than 300 percent of the Federal Poverty Limit will now be able to get up to $3,000 for a plug-in hybrid, $4,000 for an electric car, and $6,500 for a hydrogen fuel-cell car.

At the same time, buyers with incomes over $250,000 will no longer be eligible for incentives on plug-in hybrids or electric cars.

However, these buyers still qualify for a $5,000 rebate on hydrogen fuel-cell cars.

This change in policy will primarily affect Tesla Motors, whose lineup starts at $75,000 this year.

From data gathered to date, it appears higher-income buyers are getting the majority of California rebates.

A survey from the second quarter of 2015 shows that about three quarters of rebates went to households earning more than $99,000 a year.

Those with incomes above $200,000 a year accounted for 26 percent of total rebates, while those with income under $99,000 represented 27 percent.

According to the California Air Resources Board, changes were made to direct the plug-in purchase incentives "towards those most likely to value the rebate the most."

For the 2015-2016 fiscal year, which began July 1, the Clean Vehicle Rebate Program also got a boost in funding, from $121 million to $163 million.

The program has issued $217 million in rebates since 2010.

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It's about time. Incentives should exist to drive the cost of these cars down to where average consumers can afford them. BEVs/PHEVs are established; there's no justification for continuing to subsidize toys for the rich. People wanting Model S/X, i8s, 918s, Cayennes/Panameras and the like will just have to pay full freight, but then they can.

^Interesting.

If you are in CA, here are the 2015 Federal Poverty values so you can multiply by three to see if you qualify for the higher rebates:
$11,770 for individuals
$15,930 for a family of 2
$20,090 for a family of 3
$24,250 for a family of 4
$28,410 for a family of 5
$32,570 for a family of 6
$36,730 for a family of 7
$40,890 for a family of 8

The time for a rebate and or tax credit on BEVs is coming to a close. At $30k for a good BEV before incentives they are comparable to many ICE cars.

What we really need is to continue to have the cost of 100 mile EVs driven down. It isn't really fair to have a limit per car company as it penalizes the companies who took the initial risk. They should simply re-draft it with (amount of car companies)x(initial limit). If we want to subsidize anything it should be the quick charge infrastructure. This will be the largest benefit for the average person who doesn't need to buy a battery with double the capacity and it will continue to benefit every single person who's buying sub $8000 used BEVs that could never ever afford a brand new car.

If they are going to continue any type of subsidy for buying/leasing the car there should be a millage component to it. For state level subsidies it's easier since you have to deal with them when you renew your plates and I'm pretty sure all of them collect millage info however with a lot of them talking about an added tax/fee to cover road use this isn't going to happen. It would balance out the rich people buying a $135 Tesla P85D for a daily driver and normal folk buying a Leaf and could even be applied to used cars too. The best part is people driving a few thousand a year on an audi R electric, Porsche 918, mclarren P1 or Ferarri LaFerrari (I'm laughing as I type it) wouldn't get a cent if they don't drive it at least say 5000 miles and would need to cover over 15-20K for the max amount. That's real world proof that they've done as much for the environment as the person in the Smart ED that has to deal with the only car he can afford having "ED" on the side of it.

minispeed said:

The time for a rebate and or tax credit on BEVs is coming to a close. At $30k for a good BEV before incentives they are comparable to many ICE cars. <snip>

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While I don't disagree with you that the time for rebates and incentives to sunset is fast approaching, I do disagree that "At $30k for a good BEV before incentives they are comparable to many ICE cars". They are comparable on features and size, but nowhere near all-around capability, flexibility and versatility for the price. Gen 2 will start to approach that point, but it will take Gen 3 if not later to get all the way there, when affordable BEVs can serve as most people's sole car, and virtually anyone who can afford a new car can afford one; those who can only afford a used one will have several years of useful life remaining in primary service. To me, that means Civic/Corolla pricing without incentives.