Cap and Trade on gasoline - no better time for it!

You may know that CA ushered in a Cap and Trade system on gasoline manufacturers under Assembly Bill 32, which became effective yesterday and is expected to increase the price of gasoline by $0.10 a gallon. As chance would have it there really couldn't be a better time to start doing this than right now, with the price of fuel nearing historic lows over the last few months and a (slowly) strengthening economy. Most will notice the increase in the price of fuel but may still be happy enough to be paying much less than they did a couple of years ago. Only those really clued in to what's happening are likely to understand why and (predictably) will either be OK with it or upset about it, presumably along political lines.

Some more information about Cap and Trade in CA and a .pdf talking about the manufacturing permits/allowances specifically:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/capandtrade/capandtrade.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/capandtrade/guidance/facts_fuels_under_the_cap.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In anticipation of the price hike I made sure to fill my tank on 12/30 (last got gas on 9/18). Paid $2.34/gal. vice $3.54/gal. in September, although it would have been $2.40 if I'd gotten gas at the same station as before. I see that the price has gone up from $2.34 to $2.44 today. Local sales tax also increased from 9.5% to 10%, although some businesses haven't yet reset their registers. Agree that this was an excellent time for it, as it will cause little pain now compared to when gas was $4.00/gal., and will soon be forgotten. The next time gas prices spike, most people will just be complaining about them without thinking about the extra $0.10, although I'm sure that the media will mention it, with (as you say) the usual suspects opining on both sides.

What is this "gasoline" that you speak of?
:?:

In all seriousness, I'm not in favor of it, but I agree with you that if it were to be applied, now is as best of a time as ever.

kubel said:

What is this "gasoline" that you speak of?
:?:

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Just to remind you (seeing as how you'll be re-acquainting yourself with it next year), it's the fuel that allows me to drive 350-400 miles non-stop and still have at least a 30 mile reserve, at freeway speeds in winter with my ski gear while using the heater and defroster freely, in a car that cost me $24k and change new and which will turn 12 on Monday, with fueling infrastructure spaced every 30 miles or less that only require 5 minutes to give me another 350+ miles range I look forward the day when an electric car can do all that. In the meantime, I'll pay the extra $0.10/gal. Because year-round capability over the long term matters, or to quote a certain poster from another topic:

If you think that's bad, wait until you experience -15F conditions with snow (like we had last winter) combined with close to 20% battery degradation. The range in those conditions goes beyond disappointment- it's just plain hilarious. With a 100% charge, I was lucky to get 35 miles with pre-heating. Some may say "but that's a worst case scenario", but that's what cars have to do here. A car that can't get me to and from work in those conditions is not a car for me.

I'll be ditching the LEAF for a Volt next year. I love the LEAF, the car (batteries not included) is by far the best car I've ever owned. But I won't sugar coat it- the battery just plain sucks.

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^^ wow $24k for a new car, you must be a 1%er... the Sentra only set me back $14k and change.

GRA said:

In the meantime, I'll pay the extra $0.10/mile.

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There. I fixed it for you.

...and no thanks for more taxes.

RegGuheert said:

GRA said:

In the meantime, I'll pay the extra $0.10/mile.

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There. I fixed it for you.

...and no thanks for more taxes.

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That must be like getting the pet cat 'fixed' - actually, it was working fine before you 'fixed' it.

Bring on cap and trade or fee and dividend - with double tax rates (and half the dividend) for tea partiers. :lol:

RegGuheert said:

...and no thanks for more taxes.

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Not really a tax though, is it, at least not on the consumer, and frankly that's one of the biggest objections I have as to how it's being portrayed in almost all media.

How it should be explained is exactly as it is - an increased cost of doing business for the manufacturer that they're passing along to consumers as a price increase. They could instead choose for it to have a relatively small impact on their massive profit margins, but that's probably too much to expect for anyone in this day and age. Debate as you will the merits of "taxing" corporations. I personally think there should be massively more taxation on corporations, or at least fewer loopholes to help them legally evade existing taxation.

AndyH said:

RegGuheert said:

GRA said:

In the meantime, I'll pay the extra $0.10/mile.

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There. I fixed it for you.

...and no thanks for more taxes.

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That must be like getting the pet cat 'fixed' - actually, it was working fine before you 'fixed' it.

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Since you're having trouble following, I'll spell it out for you: GRA spends an extra $0.10/mile to drive his gasser than I spend to drive my LEAF.

mwalsh said:

RegGuheert said:

...and no thanks for more taxes.

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Not really a tax though, is it, at least not on the consumer, and frankly that's one of the biggest objections I have as to how it's being portrayed in almost all media.

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From the PDF you provided:

Proceeds from the sales of permits under the Cap-and-Trade Program...

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It's a tax, as I said. And the proceeds will go toward more govenment waste, as do most taxes paid. As a result of the waste, more damage will be done to the environment by paying bureaucrats to implement the policies.

It's bad govenment policy based on even worse science.

RegGuheert said:

It's a tax, as I said. And the proceeds will go toward more govenment waste, as do most taxes paid. As a result of the waste, more damage will be done to the environment by paying bureaucrats to implement the policies.

It's bad govenment policy based on even worse science.

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Then we disagree, on all of the above.

If the intended effect of this new tax is to improve air quality and/or net other eco benefits by getting Californians to reduce their fuel consumption, it's going to be a big fail. Already, low fuel prices are actually causing sales of gas guzzling trucks and SUVs to surge. From http://www.rubbernews.com/article/20141105/NEWS/141109989/sales-of-trucks-suvs-surge-with-lower-gas-prices" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For a sign of the challenges in selling fuel efficiency as a virtue, Tanner Hulette need only look at the signs near his auto dealership advertising gasoline for $2.70 a gallon.

Hulette, general manager of Mechanicsville Toyota near Richmond, Va., said he’s seeing higher demand for pickups and SUVs, and less interest in the Prius hybrid. The store’s year-to-date light-truck sales are up 5 percent while car sales are down 5 percent.

“The floor traffic is dictated by what’s going on with fuel,” Hulette said. “If we didn’t have SUVs and light trucks right now we’d definitely be feeling some pain.”

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Note that this was when fuel was $2.70/gallon near that dealership. A quick check of GasBuddy.com shows Richmond's fuel prices to be mostly just above $2/gallon, with one gas station reported as $1.989. So I can imagine that truck/SUV sales must be going through the roof right now, and I doubt 10 cents/gallon extra is going to quash those sales.

Also, does anybody know what that extra tax revenue will be earmarked for, like infrastructure upgrades (which are BADLY needed here), or public transit? How about an increased CVRP rebate and/or additional public charging stations to help encourage EV adoption (especially right now)? Heck I'd be happy with letting you register your EV for free (like WA) rather than the roughly $300 it costs to do so in the first year.

If it's just going to go into the general fund, as far as I'm concerned it's just another tax that will go to waste.

just more proof of liberalism being a mental illness

apvbguy said:

just more proof of liberalism being a mental illness

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Funny, I feel the same way about conservatism. You should all be put in white jackets and locked away.

I don't subscribe to a binary "liberal vs. conservative" view of the world, and I'm certainly not in favor of "thought control". Neither "side" has a monopoly on truth, common sense, or ethics.

Some politicians have doubled my family's health insurance premiums, with reduced benefits and more bureaucracy, while others try to tell us that they, as politicians, have better judgment about climate science than real scientists.

Common sense tells me that road taxes, charged on gasoline, haven't kept up with inflation and aren't generating enough funds to pay for the roads. Further, as tax policy is generally a relatively efficient way of promoting behavior changes for the common good, I'm in favor of taxing things that we want to use less of, including gasoline, cigarettes, etc.

abasile said:

I don't subscribe to a binary "liberal vs. conservative" view of the world, and I'm certainly not in favor of "thought control". Neither "side" has a monopoly on truth, common sense, or ethics. ...

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Amen!

Somehow our national discourse has devolved into this "left" vs "right" Jihad where as soon as you utter an opinion on any topic, you're immediately branded as a caricature of either the "loony lefty" or "wingnut conservative".

Heaven help you if you have a thoughtful opinion on a complex topic; any sizeable audience will probably be labelling you as both!

Please stop the political debate. Delete your posts related to political debate.

apvbguy said:

just more proof of liberalism being a mental illness

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I see you are back to wining friends and influencing people for a start of the new year. You may have noticed my many "liberal" warnings over the past six months. As you slip back toward indirect insults I will remind you that your warnings are still in place and I get really tired of having to expend energy closing reported posts as you are presently the number one offender on the site, presently leading spam posts. Try no to push the envelope please, make this the year you think twice before posting.

Nubo said:

abasile said:

I don't subscribe to a binary "liberal vs. conservative" view of the world, and I'm certainly not in favor of "thought control". Neither "side" has a monopoly on truth, common sense, or ethics. ...

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Amen!

Somehow our national discourse has devolved into this "left" vs "right" Jihad where as soon as you utter an opinion on any topic, you're immediately branded as a caricature of either the "loony lefty" or "wingnut conservative".

Heaven help you if you have a thoughtful opinion on a complex topic; any sizeable audience will probably be labelling you as both!

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Well said.

Unfortunately, those that have so successfully marketed the wedge into the middle of the US have brought us to near paralyses. I don't care if it's called 'cap and trade' or 'cap and tax' or 'socialism gone wild' or 'fee and dividend' - that corporate bookkeepers finally have a budget line-item for paying 'garbage disposal fees' is at least 180 years too late. Anyone averse to this CA effort should thank their lucky stars that the monies due aren't retroactive to the date of incorporation....

RegGuheert said:

GRA said:

In the meantime, I'll pay the extra $0.10/mile.

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There. I fixed it for you.

...and no thanks for more taxes.

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As I've previously pointed out, driving electric locally would cost _me_ more than buying gas at current prices. IIRR, it's just about break even at $4.00/gal compared to $0.49/kWh at my local public chargers ($0.54-$0.58/kWh after allowing for charging efficiency). As for no thanks for more taxes, somebody has to pay for all the EV tax credits and rebates, and I'm willing to pony up $0.10/gal until affordable EVs arrive with the capabilities I need. Just provides a little more incentive to bike/use transit instead of using the car for local errands.

IMO political discussions are more interesting when they are based on debate of ideas rather than labels, name calling and stereotypes.