Where to get hydrogen? Just suck it straight out of the air!

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

donald

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
917
Well, this'll screw up those oil companies' conspiracies to keep drivers dependent on their products!....

.... or more likely it is another graphene fantasy from Geim?!

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/green-tech/fuel-cells/graphenebased-fuel-cell-membrane-could-extract-hydrogen-directly-from-air/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=120414" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is conceivable, based on this research, that hydrogen production could be combined with the fuel cell itself to make what would amount to a mobile electric generator fueled simply by hydrogen present in air.

“When you know how it should work, it is a very simple setup,” said Marcelo Lozada-Hidalgo, a PhD student and corresponding author of this paper, in a press release. “You put a hydrogen-containing gas on one side, apply a small electric current, and collect pure hydrogen on the other side. This hydrogen can then be burned in a fuel cell.”

Lozada-Hidalgo added: “We worked with small membranes, and the achieved flow of hydrogen is of course tiny so far. But this is the initial stage of discovery, and the paper is to make experts aware of the existing prospects. To build up and test hydrogen harvesters will require much further effort."

Whatever the possibilities here, the very fact that the idea has been posited, and quite probably no more or less practicable than an FCEV itself, could potentially throw the whole of the politics of FCEVs onto a different tangent. If those promoting FCEVs are doing so covertly and surreptitiously as a means to discredit BEVs or to sell hydrogen, both 'strategies' are voided by the potential of a BEV that can just sit there, continually suck elemental hydrogen from the air (present at 500ppb) and recharging its battery!

All that is needed to be done is for someone to promote this technology and prompt CARB (or whatever other 'pro-H2' body) to support it, thereby showing their 'true colours'. They'd have no reason not to do so if they had overt bona fide intentions. If they don't fund or promote its investigation then it'll evidence that hydrogen itself is not the goal, it is likely to be one of those covert stratagems of creating dependency or discrediting BEVs.
 
Um, this sounds like magic - there is NO free H2 in our atmosphere. This may be splitting water - electrolysis, but that won't be "free".
 
NeilBlanchard said:
Um, this sounds like magic - there is NO free H2 in our atmosphere. This may be splitting water - electrolysis, but that won't be "free".

Oh, there is H2 in the air - about 0.000055% by volume (per wikipedia). So, yes it is there. But now the question is how much H2 does one need per kWh of power to drive that car? I found a quote of "81 miles/kg of H2" - on a pro HFC site: http://heshydrogen.com/hydrogen-fuel-cost-vs-gasoline/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Another site lists h2 gas as 423.3 cuft/kg. Looks like we have what we need to do a calculation here:

1 mile of travel requires 1/81 kg (.012345679) of H2.
1/81 kg takes about 5.226 cuft. (423.3/81)
Free atmosphere has about .000044% by volume so you would have to process about 95,000 cuFt of 'normal' air to get this amount of H2.
This of course assumes you get 100% of the H2 contained in that air...

So, I suppose it is POSSIBLE, but that is a lot of air to move each mile - traveling 60mph that means you have to process all 95,000 cu ft each minute... I guess that vehicle will need a serious air intake eh? Not to mention that if you were following a few of these vehicles in traffic the available H2 in the air would decrease and you would need to process even more....

Magic comes in when you find practical solutions to moving all that air in an efficient manner....

Oh - I did a search on 95,000 cu ft/min fans and only find references to mining installations... Hmmm...

Edit #2 - just noticed that same wikipedia site shows that there is about 2x as much Kr in the air as H2....
 
I did mention the 500ppb figure for free hydrogen. hmmm, I guess folks don't believe me......?

There's no prospect of taking on enough H2 in real-time. As I suggested, though, there could be a unit on board constantly recharging the battery. It wouldn't get you much further than one battery's worth, but might mean the car will, at least partially, charge itself!
 
donald said:
I did mention the 500ppb figure for free hydrogen. hmmm, I guess folks don't believe me......?

There's no prospect of taking on enough H2 in real-time. As I suggested, though, there could be a unit on board constantly recharging the battery. It wouldn't get you much further than one battery's worth, but might mean the car will, at least partially, charge itself!

Well - the volume of air you have to process to remove enough H2 to charge would be tremendous. I wonder how much power the fans required to move the air would consume (would they even generate enough to power the fans?). Perhaps I'm off on my calculations. Ok, so lets assume you want to get a 'trickle charge' rate (5 miles/hr?) then you have to process that 95K cu ft of air each 12 minutes so now your fan is running at about 8K cu ft/minute. This one would do it: http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/LFI-SD30-G1D.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Granted it has a 30" blade, but it does 'only' draw about 600w so about 1/2 the amount of power one would draw trickle charging? So you could well get more out of the process than you put in...

My point (for those who may be missing it) is that just because the H2 is in the air doesn't make it practical to draw on it at the scale required to drive a car. Ironically it may actually be more effective to not use a fan and instead have a large intake on the car to process as it goes through, but I have no idea what pressures are required to pull the H2 out and just how quick the process is proposed to be.

Neat lab trick though - perhaps for low voltage applications it could be useful, but I'm highly doubtful it would be economical to use for transportation (maybe not for anything else either).
 
This is totally not practical. Not only would it take way more energy to process through enough air to travel than could be yielded from the free H2 in the air, but if a bunch of cars started to use this technology, there would soon be no free H2 at ground level--cars would be processing through the air from the exhaust of the cars around them.
 
Slow1 said:
Well - the volume of air you have to process to remove enough H2 to charge would be tremendous.
That's not entirely certain. For very low concentrations, diffusion will be quite fast. For molecules as light as hydrogen (none lighter!) the transportation rates by thermic agitation would be high.

For such small concentrations, then, I would not expect any real benefit to be gained by actively venting the air past a process surface. Rather, what would count would be the physical size of that surface.

Now, where you are then correct, but perhaps not for the right reasons, is that you would probably want to ensure contaminations do not find their way on to those surfaces, in which case that sort of volume would need to pass through filtration. It would be the pressure differentials caused by the filtration that would mean some form of positive pressure would need to be applied.

You could, perhaps, design a chimney system in which the lower flue only opens when the car is stationary and minimal dust content is detected by some component designed to look out for, say, dusty scenarios and prevent operation. An air column would then function in which the exhaust water vapour would vent upwards, passively drawing fresh air in from underneath.

But don't get me wrong. I'm just 'working a problem' here and it is very much a blue skies problem. The fun for me is the potential politics of it - would an H2 advocate body want to fund such projects or would they see it as a threat to their covert sub-agendas?
 
Keep it simple. There is a very low concentration of H2 in the air. You need a significant amount to get enough energy to power the car and this poses a problem.

You will need to get that H2 to the fuel cell somehow - While you may be correct in that the concentrations will stabilize without need to 'mix' with forced air, the fact remains you need to get sufficient H2 onto the processing surface. We could go through and calculate the surface required to 'touch' enough H2 on the assumption that concentration at the surface is constant, but I can assure you now that the answer would be VERY large in this case. Surface contamination etc is moot if even in ideal conditions the solution is impractical and thus any discussion there is a distraction.

Politics? Conspiracy theories? Moot as well - if the H2 isn't in the air in sufficient quantities to make a viable solution then it can't be a threat to anyone. Sure, I enjoy a good political discussion too but the only way I'd see one built around this is if someone were spending public money on trying to develop this application.

What could be useful here is how the device works in an H2 rich environment and perhaps applications for other gasses or other uses. But any idea of pulling H2 out of earths atmosphere to power a car just doesn't sound practical to me simply due to the extremely low concentrations. Rather like spreading a 50lb bag of rice over the state of Texas and suggesting that someone could live on the rice they find laying on the ground. Perhaps possible in theory (the rice IS there) just not going to happen.
 
If their theory holds up, I could imagine that it would produce as much or more energy that a solar panel, yet Nissan still fit a solar panel. By the argument that it would not produce much energy, why bother with a solar panel?

Point is, I am sure you would not want to close down their research without really exploring it. But the real question is will CARB and the H2 vendors want to?
 
donald said:
If their theory holds up, I could imagine that it would produce as much or more energy that a solar panel, yet Nissan still fit a solar panel. By the argument that it would not produce much energy, why bother with a solar panel?

Point is, I am sure you would not want to close down their research without really exploring it. But the real question is will CARB and the H2 vendors want to?

There essentially is no point in the solar panel on the LEAF other than marketing, certainly can't make a case that the cost of production/installation/etc is returned by the power gathered by it in the lifetime of the vehicle, but I believe that is a tangent to the question about pulling H2 out of the air to power the vehicle.

Close down research? Never :) I am a believer in pure science/research for the sake of learning. However, given the basic facts currently understood, I would not expect industries to fund development efforts toward powering vehicles using ambient H2 supplies. Great to know we CAN pull energy from the H2 in the air and use it, would be great to explore what else can be done, but at this time it isn't something that poses a threat to any H2 Vendors. Face it, if you wanted to you could go set up a plant to pull H2 out of the air and bottle it - the H2 vendors likely would laugh at your folly given the cost to do so unless it was a byproduct of other efforts.

IF you are trying to see some sort of conspiracy look elsewhere - I just can't see why any competitor would bother trying to "close down their research" unless they are funding it.

Want to get political in this? Ask the question - should our government be investing in this research? Somebody has to pay for the basic science/research even if it doesn't have commercial applications so how much of our tax money should go toward the effort? Once the budget is set, who gets to decide which areas are researched and on what basis?
 
Slow1 said:
IF you are trying to see some sort of conspiracy look elsewhere - I just can't see why any competitor would bother trying to "close down their research" unless they are funding it.

If you didn't already know, you're trying to argue this with someone who spend a lot of time basically arguing that global warming can't be real because the atmosphere would just expand isothermally.

Be prepared for a lot of this:


argument.jpg



=Smidge=
 
Slow1 said:
IF you are trying to see some sort of conspiracy look elsewhere
I think you've missed my point, by a smidge.

I'm suggesting that it could prove to be an amusing 'litmus test' of real interest in H2, or whether we're being scammed into another form of fuel that *they* can control us with.

I mean, it's pretty damned clear that a big house covered in solar panels will generate enough juice to get an average commuter around, plus some. That idea must simply horrify many different sets of folks.
 
donald said:
I'm suggesting that it could prove to be an amusing 'litmus test' of real interest in H2, or whether we're being scammed into another form of fuel that *they* can control us with.

The idea of being able to collect/oxidize enough H2 from the atmosphere to power a passenger vehicle is simply impractical. Interest in this reflects neither the 'real interest in H2' nor the intentions of anyone promoting H2 as a fuel.

What this COULD serve as is a 'litmus test' for critical thinking skills and understanding of the realities of our environment.
 
Slow1 said:
What this COULD serve as is a 'litmus test' for critical thinking skills and understanding of the realities of our environment.
It's research and a claim of worthwhile investigation from the team of a Nobel prize winning scientist. Maybe we could just run over what your qualifications are for judging critical thinking skills, and then we can compare with his?
 
donald said:
Slow1 said:
What this COULD serve as is a 'litmus test' for critical thinking skills and understanding of the realities of our environment.
It's research and a claim of worthwhile investigation from the team of a Nobel prize winning scientist. Maybe we could just run over what your qualifications are for judging critical thinking skills, and then we can compare with his?

I'm not criticizing the science or those performing it - only those who take this and conclude that they are going to go driving around pulling H2 out of the air as fuel.
 
From another article (this at GCC) reporting the same thing:
The discovery is reported in the journal Nature by an international team led by Professor Sir Andre Geim, who, with Professor Sir Kostya Novoselov succeeded in producing, isolating, identifying and characterizing graphene in 2004 at the University of Manchester, an achievement for which the pair won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2010. (Graphene had been studied theoretically as far back as 1947; professors Geim and Novoselov were the first to fabricate and to study the material.)
See
Univ. of Manchester team finds monolayer graphene permeable to protons; implications for PEM fuel cell and other hydrogen technologies
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/11/20141128-graphene.html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Naturally, this is years if not decades away from commercialization, if that's even possible.
 
I think I remember learning at one point that Earth's gravity is insufficient to retain hydrogen or helium.
They rise up and and basically leave for outer space. Trace amounts must remain diffused for other reasons.
Pulling hydrogen from the air is a lost cause IMO.
 
This thread raises the question of just what would happen and how people would react/change their behavior if a really good "CO2-scrubber" was invented that could extract CO2 from the air in great quantities over time. Say enough to remove enough to bring concentrations back to 350 ppm (to pick a random number ;-) by 2050, even with the current mix of energy sources.

Would anyone (here) go back to an ICE?? I suspect few to none. Which just goes to show that even if you take the environmental component out of the cost-benefit analysis, there are still plenty of good reasons to go electric and keep improving battery capacity/density. What percent of drivers bought or leased an EV solely because of the environmental benefits?
 
mbender said:
Which just goes to show that even if you take the environmental component out of the cost-benefit analysis, there are still plenty of good reasons to go electric and keep improving battery capacity/density.
...and even if you remain focused on only the environmental concerns, there's plenty of reasons to shun fossil fuels beyond than CO2 emissions.
=Smidge=
 
mbender said:
This thread raises the question of just what would happen and how people would react/change their behavior if a really good "CO2-scrubber" was invented that could extract CO2 from the air in great quantities over time. Say enough to remove enough to bring concentrations back to 350 ppm (to pick a random number ;-) by 2050, even with the current mix of energy sources.


I think folks would embrace this. Question of course would be who pays for it? Producers of CO2? "the energy industry", taxes? There would be all sorts of "we should do that!" followed by "but don't expect me to pay for it either directly or in increased costs of energy/products" sentiment... i.e. Great idea if someone else will pay for it :)

Ok, I'm a bit of a cynic on these things...

But to think about the science of this - what could such a scrubber do with all that CO2? Hmm... we could capture it as a gas, then compress it and store it (don't laugh, that is being proposed to be done at power plants). Perhaps we can 'capture' it by chemically altering it into other compounds... perhaps mix some water with it and make complex chains that are solid using just the carbon, oxygen and a bit of hydrogen. Done right these solid byproducts could be reused, perhaps as building materials and maybe even food? Such complex chemistry could be powered by solar power so we don't burn any energy in the process. I wonder if such a process could be invented...
 
Back
Top