How to crowdfund new charging infrastructure

I've been wondering if anyone has had any success at pooling resources to influence installation of public L2 and L3 charging. I-for-one would be willing to chip in a hundred bucks for specific locations, but I have no way to make that known to anyone. There is no way to see that there are others wanting the same site or general area. I might want to contribute $100 for a site 50 miles away from me, but only $20 for a site 25 miles away. And what about the locations that let you charge for free? Wouldn't it be nice if there were some single fund that they could suggest you make a $5 contribution to that would further the infrastructure?

I mean wouldn't it be neat if you could approach a mall operator and point to a website that shows there is a pool of money out there that is ready if they will host it? ...and that if the mall across the highway pulls the trigger first, then they will get the money... and the customers?

How would you think one would want to state their willingness to help fund a site? A series of concentric circles around their home, where there is a 10mi wide band every 50 miles? Someone like a Nissan dealer might want to say a 50mi radius of their dealership, "you take care of your city and I'll take care of mine" and we'll all get there. But drivers have different objectives.

What infrastructure around a charge location would help sell the idea or make it more viable? The current locations are very haphazard. There clearly was no national plan, nor even common sense applied to many of the current locations. I mean we are used to having gas stations right next to the exit on the interstate, but that's not necessarily where you'd actually want to use an L2 charge.

Does anyone know of any published details on utilization of various charge locations? Number of charges per month, number of kWh delivered, percent utilization during business hours. I complain about lack of infrastructure, yet what exists now is so rarely used that I've never not been able to pull up and charge.

I don't think we'll be stuck with level 2 several years from now, but I've been trying to figure out why national mall operators and movie theater chains aren't seeing the good fit with the current 3-4hr L2 charge times. Why is it that so many of the sites I see are Goodwill stores, college campuses, and auto dealerships? These are not places I tend to want to hang around for 3hrs with nowhere else to walk to.

What if a number of hotels got together and funded an installation at a nearby mall? Then add it to their shuttle route. That should be win-win-win. Cost reduced to 15% (or less) of trying to do something yourself. You can say all you like that none of your customers need this, but when people with an EV can't GET there, that could be part of WHY. Put solar panels over the hot parking lot and provide shade for all of the ICE drivers.

To answer part of your questions, there are some useful publications at http://avt.inl.gov/librarybydate.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Maybe take a look at these, for example:
EV Charging Infrastructure Usage in Large-scale Charging Infrastructure Demonstrations: Public Charging Station Case Studies for ARB (SLIDES) - July 2014
WA State EV Working Group: DC Fast Charger Use, Fees, Battery Impacts, and Temperature Impacts on Charge Rates (SLIDES) Portland, OR - July 2014
ChargePoint America Vehicle Charging Infrastructure Summary Report 4th Quarter 2013

http://www.voltacharging.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has placed some free EVSEs at some malls. Oddly, http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/54371" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which is a Volta station isn't on their own map.

Very interesting idea. But, how to do it? Some coalition of PlugShare, ChargePoint, and KickStarter? I'd guess an enterprising EVSE supplier could run with an idea like this.

So it would be a StartPlugSharePointKickCharge? Somehow I'd bet that URL is available! :lol:

I wonder if there would be a way to apply the Cooperative model to it. The co-op could then own the sites. People could buy in to the co-op shares to help support it. If you want to install one, you buy shares. The co-op could then coordinate lining up others to help fund specific sites. The co-op board would then make some overall decisions about where limited resources are best expended. They then work to leverage that with the parties that benefit, including the users of the location.

http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2014_04_29_pulling_back_the_veil_on_ev_charging_station_costs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some costs. I haven't checked their accuracy.

Chargepoint doesn't own charging stations, besides probably the ones at their HQ in Campbell, CA. I don't have a price list but I hear their EVSEs are kinda pricey. And, they charge subscription fees (per J1772 handle, I hear).

A cooperative sounds interesting...maybe, but I'm not sure if it can breakeven. Will people altruistically keep adding in/pouring in money? Ecotality went bankrupt but it doesn't seem like their new parent CCGI is doing all that hot either (from a revenue vs. massive net loss POV):
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=342269#p342269" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=400389#p400389" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I quickly dug up http://adoptacharger.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Paul Scott sometimes posts here as PaulScott.

^That's good stuff. Check this out too: http://zerocarbonworld.org/zero-net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as a similiar model.

ChargePoint was just an example, any EVSE vendor could get creative with this idea.

There's a lot of Co-ops in VT and Western MA that would be a good fit. I've been shopping this around:

http://www.mass.gov/eea/docs/doer/procurement/clean-vehicle-project3-fast-chargingpon-ene-2015-013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Might as well reach out to Co-ops with it too. Free start up money never hurts.

kikngas said:

I've been wondering if anyone has had any success at pooling resources to influence installation of public L2 and L3 charging. I-for-one would be willing to chip in a hundred bucks for specific locations, but I have no way to make that known to anyone. There is no way to see that there are others wanting the same site or general area. I might want to contribute $100 for a site 50 miles away from me, but only $20 for a site 25 miles away. And what about the locations that let you charge for free? Wouldn't it be nice if there were some single fund that they could suggest you make a $5 contribution to that would further the infrastructure?

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You might want to start out by contacting non profit groups that have similar goals already. They may be able to help you find grant money to accomplish your objective. For example have you contacted Twin Cities Clean Cities Coalition ?
http://www.cleanairchoice.org/cities/tc.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TC4 assists industry partners in raising consumer awareness of Clean Air Choices because we believe industry, when realizing the advantage in "doing the right thing," will be motivated to supply continuously improved clean air products. Building the TC4 as one of the 90-plus Clean Cities is an important step in continuing the efforts of Clean Cities as a voluntary program aimed at increasing the use of cleaner alternative motor fuels, such as biodiesel, electricity, E85, natural gas, propane, and others.

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You could try to lobby for charge stations at the state level. The ones installed this year in my rural area were mostly paid for by a state grant and the funds for the grants come from a registration fee on plug-in vehicles: $50 a year, $30 for roads and $20 for charge station grants to local governments and such places as condo and apartment complexes.

The idea would be to convince legislators of EVs as a public benefit. Don't know if that will fly in Minnesota but Colorado has been staunchly supporting EVs, despite being an oil producing state.

KJD, thanks for the link. I had not heard of the TC4 before. But, my current dilemma personally is that it is very difficult for me to GET to the Twin Cities. Once you are there, it seems L2 is everywhere you look. But how do you lobby Twins Cities businesses and governments to install infrastructure in a 50 mile and 100 mile radius of them? And if you convince them both to put in a charge site at their business and to offer to pay 10% of a site 50 miles away, how do they record that willingness to pay such that it may some day combine with others? I guess I'm looking for a way to make it EASY for people to show a willingness to participate in specific areas, without all of the legwork of trying to create specific interested parties. Both a willingness to host and to contribute to costs. Once the money is there, then individuals with a local interest have leverage to work on actual site selection. And once you help the local business install one and have more then 70% of the costs covered, you hit them up to register a willingness to pay 10% in each of 5 locations that would help people reach them.

I'm thinking that a national brand-name of some kind would help everyone know what it is and participate. I'd be more comfortable chipping in $5 every time I charge for free somewhere, if I knew the organization I was contributing to. If every local charging site has some unique local entity that can accept the donations, that fragments your image and leverage.

Sparta Wisconsin is a great example. Apparently installed as part of the national programs, it is free to charge (at least for now). It is located right near their downtown businesses. You can walk to the café, antique shop, hardware store, drug store, a few bars, a few gift shops. This is the ONLY charge location along that stretch of interstate. This is a GREAT idea for their local businesses. But the businesses have no easy way to help contribute to that site. No easy way to collaborate to install more. And I as a user of the site have no easy way to send $5 and say thank you. If the city council saw direct revenue coming back, they might be more inclined to keep it free, or install more, or encourage other cities that this is good for local businesses.

I am afraid that once the grant money and requirements for keeping a site open have passed, that some will just fall in to disrepair because the folks using it can easily be labeled as "freeloaders" anyway. Yet the subscription costs and etc. to even accept payments are going to eat in to, and perhaps exceed the revenues. I made a real point of telling the folks at the businesses I stopped in at that I was using the charging station. And that is what brought me to their small town, and brought me to make this purchase. I just want to help build an awareness that the thing is right over there at the library. And that if the city council or the Chamber of Commerce floats the topic of supporting it or building more or whatever, that it's good for your business, so don't oppose such a discussion out-of-hand because it costs something.

I also charged at Lacrosse, WI for free at the Nissan dealership there (the Honda dealership offers free as well, I think both are only during business hours). And, again, made visits and purchases with local merchants there. But how do those merchants show support for the dealership that paid all the bills? How do I? If the next time I make that trip the location is in use, how do I show the desire that another be opened up? Perhaps with 24x7 access? The only other option in that area is out at their airport. Great if you were going to fly somewhere (although how do you move your car when it gets charged? And how do you plug it in again when the temp. drops below zero while you are gone?), but there's nothing else out there to do. So sort of a last resort... but I'm glad it's there for a "B" plan, how can I support that without actually using it and paying the hourly charge?

Key point I guess is that these things don't pay for themselves. A program that could aid local interested parties in finding grant money, local programs, and crowdfunding would help make a much more sustainable system. And hopefully result in more interesting charging options.

kikngas said:

I'm thinking that a national brand-name of some kind would help everyone know what it is and participate. I'd be more comfortable chipping in $5 every time I charge for free somewhere, if I knew the organization I was contributing to. If every local charging site has some unique local entity that can accept the donations, that fragments your image and leverage.

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True.

Your prospects for success depend on Minnesota utility regulations. We tried to put something like this together in the San Diego region 3 years ago and never got off the ground. L2 isn't very interesting since other than home and work it's usually in the wrong location for most people. Imagine getting 1,000 drivers to agree on the exact location of a new L2 station when a difference of even a couple of blocks would make a vast difference in the daily usability of the station for drivers in the area.

QC is a better service to provide through a co-op. Any location within several miles of some point is extremely useful to everyone driving through that area. You might buy into the co-op with an initial payment to provide working capital to build the first station(s). Then members would charge at a low cost while non-members would charge at a higher cost and be invited to join. As new members joined the increased capital would allow expansion, while charging fees paid electricity and maintenance costs.

What kills that concept in California is utility company demand charges which California regulators ruled should apply to car charging as well as any other use. The first car that charges in a month at a peak rate of 50 kW incurs a fee of several hundred dollars or more, priced per kW, in addition to a modest fee per kWh for the energy delivered. The second car charged in a month incurs only the fee per kWh.

These fees mean there is almost no way for EV charging to make economic sense. Only if the charging station were used almost continuously during peak driving hours could the demand fees be amortized over enough charging sessions so that the cost would be reasonable compared to putting gasoline in an SUV. But such high utilization means long lines and "quick" charging that is anything but. With prices much higher than gasoline people would use the stations only in an emergency so you'd have few sessions per month and the demand fees would quickly drive the co-op to bankruptcy.

Demand fees applied to quick charging are ironically counter productive. They're intended for big industrial and commercial electricity users to shoulder the capital cost of providing power plants and transmission lines that must be there to handle *potential* demand. However, by suppressing the EV charging infrastructure demand fees help suppress the demand for EV's. Since EV's are charged 90% overnight they generally help flatten the utility's demand curve, improving utilization of less expensive less polluting base load plants, and enabling utilization of overnight renewable wind power. Fewer EV's mean a demand curve more skewed to daytime and higher capital costs to the utility and ratepayers - the exact opposite of what demand fees were designed to do.

Quick charging under such a regulatory burden falls to cash rich companies willing to lose money to position themselves as the new century's Exxon (e.g. Blink before their bankruptcy, and maybe e.g. eVgo), and to companies compelled to provide the service (e.g. eVgo under the California lawsuit settlement).

If Minnesota has EV friendly utility regulations you may be able to build a co-op. Else about all you could do is seek location(s) where a QC station could be tied into a large commercial (e.g. shopping center or office complex) or industrial installation using demand management. In this case an extra 50 kW might be handled trivially, say by reducing the HVAC by a few percent for 10 minutes until the QC load dropped to 30 kW.

Good luck.

Follow the link in this thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They allow you, or a group, to sponsor a station.

walterbays said:

Demand fees applied to quick charging are ironically counter productive. They're intended for big industrial and commercial electricity users to shoulder the capital cost of providing power plants and transmission lines that must be there to handle *potential* demand. However, by suppressing the EV charging infrastructure demand fees help suppress the demand for EV's. Since EV's are charged 90% overnight they generally help flatten the utility's demand curve, improving utilization of less expensive less polluting base load plants, and enabling utilization of overnight renewable wind power. Fewer EV's mean a demand curve more skewed to daytime and higher capital costs to the utility and ratepayers - the exact opposite of what demand fees were designed to do.

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Nighttime EV charging flattens the demand curve by filling in the low parts, it doesn't lower the peaks. Even if this lowering were useful, utilities would want to support nighttime L2 charging, not daytime quick charging. Quick charging generally happens during the daytime, and pushes the peaks even higher.

At night, the power is unlikely to be from wind, as by mid-evening the winds have died down.

Demand charges at the 50 kW level are pretty annoying - they might me meaningful at the levels of large industrial plants, but 50 kW is really not that much.

kikngas said:

I've been wondering if anyone has had any success at pooling resources to influence installation of public L2 and L3 charging.

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You might get more...mileage... out of a lateral shift of sorts.

http://www.forestag.com/

I'd contact Mark Shepard of New Forest Farm. He's in SW WI and is one member of a 17+ year old co-op (Organic Valley cooperative [CROPP]) that has become a multi-state (and Canada) enterprise - and they have their own alternative fuel business. Everything they do is profitable - and they've become very good at massaging their business needs to make them look 'conventional' enough to get state and Federal funding when necessary. In their 'oil cartel' they grow oil crops, press the seeds, and sell the oil at a profit to companies that fry food for human consumption. They then buy the waste oil, filter and de-water it, and use it to run all off their farm equipment. The oil presses, tank trucks, and other equipment (plus flying German engineers to Wisconsin to modify all of their equipment) is/are much more expensive than a DC quick charge station. I'll bet this would be a very worthwhile consultation. Good luck!

alanlarson said:

Nighttime EV charging flattens the demand curve by filling in the low parts, it doesn't lower the peaks. Even if this lowering were useful, utilities would want to support nighttime L2 charging, not daytime quick charging. Quick charging generally happens during the daytime, and pushes the peaks even higher.

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I think walterbays point was that with 90% of EV charging happening at home, even though QC will raise the peak demand on the day, EVs will make up for it and more by reducing the valley during the middle of the night. And utilities would love to fill in that hole in demand in the middle of the night as it allows them to maximize utilization of grid infrastructure.

I highly suspect that utilities are working to reduce demand charges for EV chargers. If not, there are plenty of companies working on battery storage to level out demand.

Back on topic - one organization that has crowd funded charging stations in the past is Sun Country Highway.