Should Tesla be worried about NanoFlowCell technology?

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NasGoreList

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Or should it embrace it if it becomes viable alternative for batteries? Allegedly it has best of both worlds: higher energy density and quick refuel time!? Also this has huge potential for energy storage in other applications.

very cool video: http://www.nanoflowcell.com/#home

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more info: http://mediacenter.nanoflowcell.com/fileadmin/nanoflowcell/press/press_kit_geneva_motorshow_2014.zip

The QUANT e-Sportlimousine with nanoFLOWCELL® drivetrain concept approved for use on public roads in Germany and Europe

Vaduz/Munich, 22 July 2014 – The QUANT e-Sportlimousine with nanoFLOWCELL® drivetrain concept has been approved by the District Government of Upper Palatinate Bavaria for use on public roads after detailed testing by SGS-TÜV Saar. Nunzio La Vecchia, chief technical officer at nanoFLOWCELL AG, was handed the official registration plate with number ROD-Q-2014 in Munich. After in-depth inspection by SGS-TÜV Saar this means that the vehicle with its nanoFLOWCELL® has now been officially approved for use on public roads in Germany and Europe as a whole.

“This is a historic moment and a milestone not only for our company but perhaps even for the electro-mobility of the future. For the first time an automobile featuring flow-cell electric drive technology will appear on Germany's roads. Today we have put the product of 14 years’ hard development work on the road. This is a moment for us to celebrate. We are extremely proud that as a small company we have developed such visionary technology as the nanoFLOWCELL® and are now also able to put it into practice. But this is only the beginning of our journey of discovery,” is Nunzio La Vecchia’s delighted comment on this important step in the development of the company.

Currently the nanoFLOWCELL AG team and its partners are working at top speed on the homologation of the QUANT e-Sportlimousine with nanoFLOWCELL® for series production.

“At the car’s world premiere in Geneva a large number of investors and automobile manufacturers showed tremendous interest in the new QUANT e-Sportlimousine and the nanoFLOWCELL® drivetrain concept, together with its wide range of possible applications. Now that the automobile has been approved for use on public roads in Germany and Europe we can enter into detailed planning with our partners, adding an exciting new chapter to the future of electro-mobility,” states chief technical officer Nunzio La Vecchia, commenting on the wide interest in the innovative drive technology represented by nanoFLOWCELL AG. “The attention received by the nanoFLOWCELL® and the positive response to it has encouraged us to think about investment possibilities in the project, right up to a possible initial public offering. This would enable us to drive forward the wide range of possible applications and potential of the nanoFLOWCELL® on an international scale. Initial planning and discussions are already taking place,” Nunzio La Vecchia explains.

“Here in Munich in particular, where other prestigious automobile manufacturers are advertising their electric vehicle with the slogan ‘ERSTER EINER NEUEN ZEIT’ (‘FIRST IN A NEW AGE’) or ‘THE MOST PROGRESSIVE SPORTS CAR’, we are delighted as pioneers to be able to present an automobile driven by flow cell technology on public roads, and one which achieves not only fantastic performance values but also zero emissions. With a projected top speed of over 350 km/h, acceleration from 0-100 in 2.8 seconds, a torque of four times 2,900 NM, a length of over 5.25 m and a range of more than 600 km the four-seater QUANT e-Sportlimousine is not only a highly competitive sports car but also SEINER ZEIT VORAUS – UND ZWAR SCHON HEUTE (‘WELL AHEAD OF ITS TIME – IN FACT TODAY’),” is how technical manager Nunzio La Vecchia assesses the future possibilities of the QUANT e-Sportlimousine, with a reference to other cars produced by German automobile manufacturers in Bavaria.

“Approval of the QUANT e-Sportlimousine with the nanoFLOWCELL® drivetrain concept is a vital step forward for nanoFLOWCELL AG. What began as the vision of Nunzio La Vecchia has now become reality. The fact that only four months after the car's world premiere in Geneva we have received approval for the use of the QUANT e-Sportlimousine with nanoFLOWCELL® drivetrain concept on the road in Germany and in Europe indicates the dynamism with which our entire team is working on this project. And we are very much looking forward to the next stages of this exciting and promising journey,” states Prof. Jens-Peter Ellermann, chairman of the board of directors at nanoFLOWCELL AG. “We've got major plans, and not just within the automobile industry. The potential of the nanoFLOWCELL® is much greater, especially in terms of domestic energy supplies as well as in maritime, rail and aviation technology. The nanoFLOWCELL® offers a wide range of applications as a sustainable, low cost and environmentally-friendly source of energy,” is how Prof. Jens Ellermann describes the diversity of potential uses for the nanoFLOWCELL®.
 
But WHAT IS IT? A fuel cell of some sort from the sound of it. From the specs I could gather it has an output of 600V and 50A, which only amounts to 30kW of power. That's piddly squat, which must be why they appear to have paired it with a super capacitor.
 
GeekEV said:
But WHAT IS IT? A fuel cell of some sort from the sound of it. From the specs I could gather it has an output of 600V and 50A, which only amounts to 30kW of power. That's piddly squat, which must be why they appear to have paired it with a super capacitor.

What is the leaf/tesla battery peak discharge voltage and amperage?
 
NasGoreList said:
GeekEV said:
But WHAT IS IT? A fuel cell of some sort from the sound of it. From the specs I could gather it has an output of 600V and 50A, which only amounts to 30kW of power. That's piddly squat, which must be why they appear to have paired it with a super capacitor.

What is the leaf/tesla battery peak discharge voltage and amperage?
Don't have the specs on Telsa, but here's the Leaf:

Vnom: 364.8V
Vmax: 403.2V
Vmin: 240.0V
Acnt: 240A
Amax: 540A
Pcnt: 87,360W (87kW)
Pmax: 217,728W (217kW)
Cnom: 60Ah
Cmax: 64Ah
 
does anyone think that innovation ended when the tesla raised the bar with their cars? I sure hope that there are people out there who are trying to discover something that can propel cars better than the current battery powered cars and could put tesla out of business
 
TomT said:
Just like FC vehicles are paired with a small battery, typically 1Kwh, for the some of the same reasons.
GeekEV said:
That's piddly squat, which must be why they appear to have paired it with a super capacitor.
Right. All of which makes me wonder, what's the alleged innovation here?
NasGoreList said:
What is the leaf/tesla battery peak discharge voltage and amperage?
I'm not sure of the specifics, but we DO know the kW of power input to the motor. By extension, the battery must output AT LEAST that much.

For the Model S it is 225/275/310kW:
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The LEAF is only listed by HP:
http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But 107HP works out to 79.8kW:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=107+hp+as+kW" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Reviving this thread as the flow-cell vehicle seems like an interesting compromise (in terms of performance) between an H2 fuel-cell and a BEV.

This press release has some details which are missing on the main product pages shown above:

Fuel: Liquid
Cell power: 30 kW
Energy density: 600 Wh/l
Cycle life: >10,000
Discharge efficiency: >80%

In other words, this technology provides the ability to quickly refuel the vehicle like H2 FCVs, but it has the following benefits:

- Liquid fuel: No high pressure vessel on-board.
- Much higher efficiency: Less waste
- Very high cycle life: Long life

Unfortunately, I do not see any indication of cost.

All that said, battery technology is already superior in terms of power and efficiency and likely will surpass the energy density in the near future. I don't see batteries surpassing the cycle life nor refueling speed, but they should become very close.
 
This article may be of some interest. I question the feasibility of having depots of the two liquids in appropriate locations for refueling. This is fairly old technology but now refined to a 21st century ideal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Cyclone Power Company's external combustion engine is another old technology which has gotten much better and more useful due to the company's 21st Century Technology.

http://www.cyclonepower.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The US Army via a test program with DARPA has fielded the Cyclone Company's small engine as a replacement for the noisy ICE generators used in the field. (If you have even been in hearing distance of an Army 5 KW genset, you know right where to drop the mortar rounds.
 
Do these batteries also require that the spent "fuel" be drained & disposed/recycled?

I haven't found any articles describing that aspect of refueling.
 
garsh said:
Do these batteries also require that the spent "fuel" be drained & disposed/recycled?

I haven't found any articles describing that aspect of refueling.
I'm not sure. Here is what the article said about environmental impacts:
nanoFLOWCELL.com said:
Extremely Environmentally Friendly

The nanoFLOWCELL® generally utilises components that are not only harmless, but which are also easily available in large quantities. Precious metals and rare earths are not used in the system. The principal components of the cell are the water in the carrier solution, metal salts, and crystalline structures that have been combined in environmentally friendly processes and which can be disposed of with no environmental impact.

The current state of knowledge indicates that the nanoFLOWCELL® will cause no environmental complications during operation or disposal.
 
garsh said:
Do these batteries also require that the spent "fuel" be drained & disposed/recycled?

I haven't found any articles describing that aspect of refueling.


I can't find any info on this. The Nano folks are very parsimonious about giving outinfo. Mostly all they are are advertising tickles.

I always look askance anytime a manufacturer is mysterious about their "proven technology". Kind of makes me wait for the "But, Wait! There's More! Buy NOW and get one free". Know what I mean?
 
...which can be disposed of with no environmental impact.
Notice that they still don't say anything about how often it will need to be disposed. Upon reading this, the layperson might assume that it has the frequency of an oil change or transmission fluid change, instead of having to be disposed of at every fillup.

As for "*can* be disposed of with no environmental impact", well sure. The refueling stations will need to be outfitted to deal with the used stuff (extra tanks, pumps to remove it from vehicles), and trucks will have to take the spent fuel to recycling centers, and someone will have to build all those recycling centers to reprocesses the fluid, etc. etc.

Batteries have a huge head-start on the infrastructure front compared to this technology.
 
maybe they plan to go the gasoline/inkjet route. rape you for the fuel additives that make it work??
 
nerys said:
maybe they plan to go the gasoline/inkjet route. rape you for the fuel additives that make it work??

cheap cars with relatively expesive fuel work for some people
expensive cars with relatively cheap fuel work for some people
expesive cars with relatively expesive fuel dont work for almost anyone
 
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