Did you guys read this? Free Charging Hindrance Long Term

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/19/is-free-charging-for-evs-actually-a-hindrance-long-term/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Article says free charging bad, paid charging good. feels all free charging should and will go away! Wrong!

My take is that free charging is good for EVs and the business that put them in.

Most spots are two-four max. Lets say two of them are being used 24/7. We know that is not the case, but that is 48 hrs or at the most $20 a day of "free" electricity. Right? That would cover at least 8 drivers/cars. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't sit in my car for 6 hours waiting for "free" electricity. That's a waste of my time. I would stop with or without my family and have food, shop, movies. I would be spending at least $10 during my "free" charge. Do I shop where "free" charging is? Heck yes! Those business are earning a ton more from me. A single stay covers the cost of the entire day with just one of the car owners buying something from the business.

I would and do go into business with "free" charging and thank them with both my words and my wallet. I would encourage all of you to do the same. Paid charging is okay, but I don't think it is the answer. Charging someone $1-$2 an hour to spend money at their business is kind of like charging people to use the bathroom. I know that there is cost in maintaining bathrooms, but it is good customer service not to.

Can you image if you have 8-50 cars/drivers coming into your store, so they can get some of that "free" electricity. I say bring them on. You will have the guy who charges his car and does not support the business, but that would only be a small %. That is part of doing business. Not everyone that uses the bathroom, buys a burger, most do. BTW- if I stop to use a bathroom, 90%+ I buy at least a drink from the store as a thank-you for having bathrooms available. It's the right thing to do.

Thoughts?

For all the reasons you mention, I think free charging is a good thing. For the pure EV driver however, I think a small fee (or abundant charging) will be needed to assure that a charger is available when needed. I'm guessing it would be a small amount, certainly no more than $1/hr. Unfortunately $1/hr doesn't really recoup any company's investment if they were indeed in the business of profiting by supplying charging. The point of the article is that providers need to be reimbursed to encourage more infrastructure. Sadly I think what they'll find is that the amount drivers are willing to pay doesn't make much business sense... so I guess it's a moot point at the moment.

That free charger at the donut shop is not free.. you are expected to go in and buy a dozen donuts plus some coffee.. government should not be in the business of providing free chargers, no one can compete against that.

I for one look for the "free" charger first, then support that business for doing so. Another analogy is "free" WIFI at hotels and coffee shops. I don't use hotels a lot, but when I do, I call and ask how much WIFI is for a day and when they say X amount, I say thanks, but I was looking for "free" WIFI. I move on to the next hotel. I have heard of hotels charging $20-$30 a day for WIFI. Forget that, spend your money on hotels that have good customer service. Yes WIFI cost money to maintain, but it is part of your stay to make you comfortable. If and when I need to drive my leaf to a hotel, I will find one with a "free" charge station and when I do, I will say thank-you.

there is a problem with free charging now. Blink (ya, them again!) charges for the slow L2 but fast L3 is free which encourages people to camp out at the L3's.

this has already caused queues to back up at charging stations in the more popular areas of Seattle. now, I can see Blink not charging for L3 due to their rampant unreliability but they should not be charging for L2 or at least allowing L2 top ups for free.

Herm said:

That free charger at the donut shop is not free.. you are expected to go in and buy a dozen donuts plus some coffee.. government should not be in the business of providing free chargers, no one can compete against that.

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That is why free is in the "". I know it is not free. I run a business and people want "free" things from me all the time. They cost money. A free drink of water at Micky Ds is not free. The cup cost money, but the cashier does not charge you for it. It is part of doing business. If they put a giant sign that said Tap Water will cost you $1.00, people would be turned off and not support that business. Even if they did not want water.

I agree with you- You should go in and by a doughnut and coffee. Don't mooch off the coffee shop for a "free" charge, if you can help it. If you don't want coffee and a doughnut, make sure when you do want one, buy it at their shop. Let them know you use the charger and sometimes you don't buy. They will appreciate it.

I think the lack of Queues for L2 has nothing to do with L3's being free and everything to do with L2's being darn close to worthless for on the go charging at a place like Wallgreens! L3 is fast enough that people who care enough to own an EV are willing to wait. L2 is more valuable when you are in a serious crunch and have not other choice... or are at home or work or some other longish term parking scenario.

DaveinOlyWA said:

there is a problem with free charging now. Blink (ya, them again!) charges for the slow L2 but fast L3 is free which encourages people to camp out at the L3's.

this has already caused queues to back up at charging stations in the more popular areas of Seattle. now, I can see Blink not charging for L3 due to their rampant unreliability but they should not be charging for L2 or at least allowing L2 top ups for free.

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I think that charging $ is not a bad thing for EV drivers also. I wonder how many PIP drivers will charge when there is a fee to do so. I would like to see more chargers and have them be available.
I don't think that there are that many businesses that will want the expense, and maintenance of a charger without a way to at least recover their investment.

People only think free charging is odd because it's new. When you stop and think about it, the free parking spaces are just as odd, and cost quite a bit, but people also hate paying for parking. In reality, the business is subsidizing you driving to their facility by giving you a "free" place to park (and charging more for the products). Now some businesses are just subsidizing you driving to their facility by giving you some "free" juice to get home.

http://www.uctc.net/papers/351.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In high parking cost locations ie Hong Kong, 22kW Mennekes can be added as a free perk, After all $50 for 2 hours parking for all cars is attractive for the landlord to keep full.

so yes, free forever, but you'll pay

The only problem with free is when you start to hit a saturation point (especially during peak - whenever peak charge is....). As mentioned right here on this thread, people go out of their way for free charging. Even those whom don't need it (I am guilty of that too!). What happens when those stations get overloaded and block people who actually need to charge (no we aren't going to discuss BEVs vs PHEVs just assume low batteries on all). Having it set to free overloads the system. Then you have the super moochers who will use those free spots as their primary charging solution (it may be a small walk home so hell ya, I don't have to install an EVSE or anything!!).

Here is a simple example - Starbuck's free wifi.

Some people on the go will actually seek out a starbucks to use their wifi because its free, even if its out of the way (ok, stick with me here, I know most starbucks are not out of the way). Most people buy something, but not always. Then you have the super moochers. People that stay ALL day in the starbucks to use the wifi so they don't ever have to pay for it at home. I knew friends that would play online MMO's for 12+ hours at starbucks because they didn't want to buy internet at their apartments or homes. With any internet and wifi, the more people you add to the system the more overtaxed and slower it becomes. So all those people slow it down enough that it because unusable for some people, such as the business guy trying to get X item done between plane trips, etc.

Fortunately wifi is not like the public charging infrastructure because its cheap and pretty much everywhere now. Public charge is NOT. When there are few cars around, free is great. It attracts people and can get extra customers for the business. As more plug-ins are purchased the model starts to collapse. Too many people want the free stuff and over-utilize the free system and don't want to pay for it when it can be closer to them. But as the market catches up and becomes saturated with public charging, the free model becomes viable again because of the volume in the system. So its really a bell curve in demand. Some places like california and washington have already started up on the bell curve while others can still work the free system.

Herm said:

That free charger at the donut shop is not free.. you are expected to go in and buy a dozen donuts plus some coffee.. government should not be in the business of providing free chargers, no one can compete against that.

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government is not in business. it is there to do things for the common good. promoting less vehicle pollution is a common good.

I used to think free L2 was good for EV, and back in 2011 it was prob good. But with more EVs and plug-ins on the road, and L2 infrastructure not keeping up, it is VERY frustrating to be low on charge at a destination, and find pip, or a volt, or even a tesla taking up all the spots all the while you know you have to be there for a long duration but cant charge to get home. Without enough L2, the short range of the LEAF is cut in half.

So Im very happy to see ChaDeMo, with reasonable fee, are starting to pop up. This is the best range extender.

forummm said:

People only think free charging is odd because it's new. When you stop and think about it, the free parking spaces are just as odd, and cost quite a bit, but people also hate paying for parking. In reality, the business is subsidizing you driving to their facility by giving you a "free" place to park (and charging more for the products). Now some businesses are just subsidizing you driving to their facility by giving you some "free" juice to get home.

http://www.uctc.net/papers/351.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Exactly, except that many businesses need to spend time enforcing that when people park in the lots and go elsewhere which is why many have tow away signs and sometimes attendants. Those those that don't will see the same abuse from the EV drivers that justify using the station and not soliciting the business. That is going to change as the charge abusers are going to bring awareness from legit customers, this activity will likely foster stricter general paring policies at many businesses. I see this happening already has at many paid lots.

well, its been a year since visiting this thread and we are still not to the point yet but I think, using free charging as a validation for purchase is the way to go. I see Target in downtown Seattle charges $$ to park there but only $ if you make a minimum $10 purchase and even less if the purchase is like $25?? or so.

well, the sophistication required for charging stations to do the same is hardly daunting and I think this is where things need to go.

other places like Coca Cola ?? or at least somewhere in Atlanta where the first 3 hours are free then it goes to like $10 a hour which means move your car within 3 hours or else kind of thing also is a good idea.

but it does illustrate there are several good options out there that can benefit the business as well as the customer.

thankyouOB said:

government is not in business. it is there to do things for the common good. promoting less vehicle pollution is a common good.

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x2 on government promoting EVs as the common good. Yet, government is STILL subsidizing the oil industry to a staggering extent! THAT, is NOT, the common good.

Good discussion - poor article (in my opinion) as it doesn't really dig into the real questions.

My viewpoint is that there really isn't any "free" charging anywhere. Someone is paying for it. Why they are doing so will vary by provider, but it is in the end a choice by some individual or organization.

About the only criticism that I can make in support of "free charging is bad for development" is if you accept that the "free" providers are common enough to take business away from charging stations that have a cost to the driver. Frankly I don't believe there are enough 'free' to do this at this point and that plenty of $/hr or $/kwh stations COULD be built. The reality (sad as it may be) is likely that there really isn't enough demand for such stations to make them economically viable in and of themselves.

My assumption is that anyone who has purchased a BEV for "local only" use likely is going to charge at home for the majority of the time. If free, sure I'll plug in if I'm there but I don't "need" to enough to justify $1/hr cost to do it. IF I were traveling and there was a L3 charger available, I'd be happy to pay a reasonable fee for that (heck, up to the cost of Gas for the same mileage I would be willing to consider driving the Leaf), however that isn't how I expect to run the car day to day.

In my opinion, L2 isn't fast enough to rely on for mid-commute charging (I don't want to wait en-route home or to the office every day any more than I want to visit a gas station that often!) but is good to have at a destination I go to for enough time (i.e. great at the airport to pick someone up, or at the office if needed to get home).

My vision of the future, as unpopular as it may be, is that BEV will primarily remain local use vehicles with primary charging at home until range increases sufficiently to be used for long trips (i.e. 300+ miles) and then a need will present for high speed (L3 or better) charging to refuel these. These L3+ chargers would (in my vision) be able to charge multiple brands of vehicles and have a cost associated with them that makes them economically viable for the operators. If Tesla wants to provide them as part of the cost of the car, their cars may well always cost $5K more than competitors (fine by me if the business model works for them, but I'd take a $5K reduction in cost of their future Gen3/LowCost vehicle and plan to charge at home and pay on long trips).

Sure, some businesses may be able to bring in business by boasting a free charger - perhaps the outlet mall or amusement park planted out of the normal range of BEVs.

My opinion here is that availability of free L2 chargers (other than at offices/places of work) really is a nice novelty/public relations boost for some businesses (or utility companies) and may help with the psychological impact of range anxiety. DCFCs on the other hand perhaps could have some real utility for longer travels, but I don't see the general public being swayed by them once the novelty wears off for daily routine use. For my own sake, IF there was a charger (L2/L3) at every business/location that I drive to I don't think I'd particularly desire to plug in everywhere; I'd rather plug in once a day and be done with it (at home). Imagine an ICE vehicle that topped off gas at every stop - convenient? not really....