Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

GRA · Jul 27, 2016

ydnas7 said:
GRA said:

....
It appears that Chinese regulators have no problem with FCEV safety, as long as the company is Chinese instead of Japanese (similar to their attitude to battery safety, where they won't certify South Korean companies' LMO tech, only LiFePO4 as used by Chinese companies). In other words, pure protectionism.

Click to expand...

Chinese love Hydrogen, thats why they produce so much of it from Coal.

Chinese banned type 4 pressure tanks due to inspection failures from their own fleet of CNG taxis. Type 3 is safe, type 4 is banned due to demonstrated safety problems. Toyota has chosen type 4 tanks for Mirai, Nissan was using type 3 tanks for its earlier H2 vehicles. Its not a nationality issue, its an intrinsic safety issue. Polymer liners have intrinsic safety issues compared to aluminum liners.

What do you want to bet that the second a Chinese company produces acceptable Type 4 tanks, all of a sudden the safety issues will no longer apply? Or do you think (we've had this argument before) that Chinese safety regulators/regulations are more stringent than that of pretty much any western democracy? Here's an example of the effectiveness of their safety regime: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_grind/2016/07/china_makes_most_of_the_world_s_fireworks_and_bears_most_of_the_danger.html

GRA · Jul 28, 2016

Seems like I've seen this same press release and posted it before, but just in case, via GCC:

DOE issues Request for Information on hydrogen infrastructure RD&D

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07/20160728-fcto.html

. . .Barriers to be addressed through this RFI include:

Station and equipment cost
Station footprint
Station reliability and performance
Station availability
Lack of a domestic supply chain for equipment parts, and
Lack of real-world business cases for FCEVs and hydrogen stations.

The purpose of the RFI is to solicit feedback from industry, academia, research laboratories, government agencies, and other stakeholders on the research, development, and demonstration topics listed below, as well as any critical barriers and activities not addressed in this RFI:

Hydrogen fueling station system design and integration
Hydrogen infrastructure component manufacturing
Modular hydrogen station installation design guidelines
Business case analysis for FCEV fleets
Co-location of hydrogen production with combined heat and power generation systems
Delivery of hydrogen from stranded renewables
Other

GRA · Aug 4, 2016

Via ABG:

Nissan reveals solid-oxide fuel-cell van

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/04/nissan-solid-oxide-fuel-cell-van/

Today, Nissan revealed its first solid-oxide fuel-cell prototype vehicle in Brazil. The van has a 24 kwh battery and a hydrogen fuel cell, but you don't fill it up with hydrogen. Instead, the car uses ethanol, which goes through a reformer to produce hydrogen for the fuel cell. Nissan has been working on this technology for a while, and in reality, it's not particularly new. Some other manufacturers have even investigated it in the past. However, this van is one of the first examples of a fully functioning vehicle propelled by the technology. And, according to Nissan, the van boasts a range of about 600 kilometers. . . .

There's a 3 1/2 minute video, and another mention of 2020 as the earliest for commercialization. Also see the Nissan press release in this thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22107&start=10

GRA · Aug 5, 2016

Via GCR:

Kia to focus on hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles before electrics, chief engineer says

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1105391_kia-to-focus-on-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-before-electrics-chief-engineer-says

. . . For the time being, Kia plans to focus on fuel cells rather than longer-range electric cars, engineering boss Albert Biermann told British car magazine Auto Express in a recent interview.

Biermann said Kia is not developing a "Tesla fighter" battery-electric car at this time, although it could do so at some future date. However, Kia is reportedly working on a fuel-cell model, which would be its first production car fueled by hydrogen.

This new model may use a version of the second-generation fuel-cell powertrain parent Hyundai plans to debut in 2018. Hyundai has hinted that the new powertrain will be offered in another crossover, replacing the current Tucson Fuel Cell. . . .

GRA · Aug 11, 2016

Via GCC:

Report: Sumitomo to begin selling fuel cells for commercial vehicles with US Hybrid

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160810-sumitomo.html

The Nikkei reports that Sumitomo Corp., the giant Japanese integrated trading company, will start selling fuel cells for commercial vehicles via a partnership with California-based US Hybrid. Sumitomo, which is strengthening its automobile business and expects growth in the fuel cell market, plans to supply mostly Japanese commercial vehicle makers, according to the report. . . .

Established in 1999, US Hybrid Corporation has provided electric and hybrid traction drive systems for medium- and heavy-duty commercial trucks, municipality vehicles, and fuel cell transit buses throughout the world. The company is privately held and was founded in Torrance, California by Dr. Abas Goodarzi, Ph.D, P.E., and a 30-year veteran of the electric, hybrid, and fuel cell industries including design and development of General Motors’ EV1 power-train development at Hughes Aircraft Company.

In May, US Hybrid, Nissan, Argonne National Laboratory and National Grid, a utility fleet owner and operator, were selected for a $6-million award from the US Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE) to design and test a fuel cell range extender for utility vehicles based on Nissan’s e-NV200 platform.

The project’s goals are to (1) test and demonstrate one FCeNV200 at the operator’s sites in New York and/or Massachusetts in demonstration phase; (2) deploy and operate a minimum of twenty FCRXeNV200 for 5,000 hours operation per vehicle (30 months) at the operator’s sites; and (3) conduct an economic assessment, including a payback analysis, cost per unit, and payback time concerning the use of hydrogen fueled fuel cells for range extenders used in commercial operations. . . .

I think this is separate from the SoFC e-NV200 that Nissan's developing and testing in Brazil,, and probably uses a PEM stack.

GRA · Aug 13, 2016

A press release from Sumitomo on the same subject as the immediately preceding post, but with some extra info about the supply of fuel cells as range extenders for battery dominant buses for Sunline Transit in Coachella Valley, as well as 5 FCEV Class 8 tractors for the ports of LA and Houston:

Sumitomo and US Hybrid partnering to grow hydrogen fuel cell business for commercial vehicles and mass transit

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160812-sumitomo.html

GRA · Aug 16, 2016

Via ABG:

Over a million hydrogen miles have already been driven in the US
Hydrogen-station operator True Zero bills itself as the world's largest.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/16/over-million-hydrogen-miles-us/

There have already been a million hydrogen miles driven in the US. That's the minimum. The number comes from First Element, which said Monday that its True Zero hydrogen stations have collectively made 6,300 refills of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles, whose nearly 16,000 kilograms of hydrogen translate to those million miles. Put another way – assuming that a typical car gets about 25 miles per gallon, True Zero has replaced the emissions from the burning of about 40,000 gallons of gas with water vapor. . . .

A small start. That would work out to 62.5 mpkg, but the miles are undoubtedly just an estimate. Kg./fill works out to about 2.54, which tracks with what I'm seeing on the dispenser display at the Hayward station when I occasionally ride by and check. The largest fill I've seen was 3.8 kg. As the Mirai holds 5 kg. and the Tucson 5.64?, I suspect owners are being conservative and keeping a large reserve, as it's the only full retail H2 station in the East Bay yet. The next closest ones are about 25 miles away now.

The station at Toyota's Regional Office in San Ramon is scheduled to open this quarter, and that will be about 15 miles and a minimum of 21 minutes away. I'll check if the size of the fills goes up after it opens.

GRA · Aug 18, 2016

Via GCC:

Scania and Asko testing hydrogen fuel cell trucks

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160818-scania.html

Asko, Norway’s largest convenience goods wholesaler, and Scania, part of Volkswagen Truck & Bus GmbH, will start testing trucks with hydrogen fuel cell electric powertrain. The hydrogen gas will be produced locally, using solar cells. The trucks will run in distribution service with distances of almost 500 km (311 miles). . . .

Asko has the ambition to achieve a climate-neutral business, where distribution of goods will take place using trucks, which run on renewable fuels and in the longer term completely on electricity. Experience from pilot testing of vehicles and the plant, which will be built for local hydrogen gas production, will form the basis for Asko’s decision on a continued investment in hydrogen gas propulsion. The research project is partly financed by the Norwegian government.

Scania will supply three-axle distribution trucks with a gross weight of 27 tonnes, in which the internal combustion engine in the powertrain will be replaced by an electric engine powered by electricity from fuel cells and hydrogen gas on board the vehicle. The rest of the powertrain is composed of the same standard components used in the hybrid trucks and buses that Scania already delivers. Three trucks will form part of the research project, with an option for one further vehicle.

In the near future, we will see fully battery-powered electric vehicles in service, primarily in sensitive urban areas as they are limited by their battery capacity and charging potential. Our own trials of battery-powered electric trucks and buses show that further development is required of batteries, which have the capacity to store the energy needed for long-haul goods and passenger transport before the internal combustion engine can be fully replaced.

—Nils-Gunnar Vågstedt. . . .

Also GCC:

Ballard and Toyota Tsusho sign distribution agreement for fuel cell products in Japan

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160818-ballard.html

. . . Under the agreement, TTC will act as a distributor of Ballard-powered fuel cell products in Japan. The initial term of the agreement runs to 31 December 2020.

We envision a number of interesting potential applications for Ballard fuel cell products including material handling, heavy-duty motive, continuous power and backup power in addition to powering a range of vehicles. The scope of our business interests offers a range of promising opportunities for hydrogen fuel cell technology.

—Yuici Oi, TTC Chief Division Officer Global Parts and Logistics Division. . . .

The Japanese Government plans to spend more than $100 million on development of hydrogen infrastructure and various other hydrogen initiatives over the next 5-years. . . .

DNAinaGoodWay · Aug 19, 2016

50 cent/gal equivalent H2?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1105642_hydrogen-cost-could-equal-50-cent-gasoline-with-renewable-energy-study

RegGuheert · Aug 19, 2016

DNAinaGoodWay said:
50 cent/gal equivalent H2?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1105642_hydrogen-cost-could-equal-50-cent-gasoline-with-renewable-energy-study

Here is the nonsense quote from the "Planets Align" link in the article:

Wards Auto said:
“When you have this (idea) to solve the infrastructure, supply and production problem for hydrogen, and then you have the fact that the vehicles that use it can be very transparent to the consumer, you have a situation where it looks like a no-brainer,” Freese says.

Craig Scott, national manager-Advanced Technologies at Toyota, says the Japanese automaker is a big believer in the concept. In fact, Toyota researchers refer to it internally as the “hygrid.”

“It is not a panacea for current problems,” Scott says of a hydrogen infrastructure in its infancy presently. “But it will be necessary for a widespread rollout of (FCEVs). There is a lot of potential here.”

It's completely circular reasoning that ignores the ridiculous costs involved.

Let's rephrase their argument clearly: "If we IGNORE all the costs of building out hydrogen infrastructure by imagining that burden can somehow be borne by the electricity sector, then we can imagine that hydrogen comes to us for free."

We've been hearing this nonsense around here for years.

There are so many severe problems with hydrogen that the idea of pushing it non matter the cost is pure craziness.

What is missing from these arguments is any semblance of evaluation of real alternatives for long-term (and short-term, FTM,) storage of electricity. Included in those alternatives you must always include the do nothing option, which beats H2 FCVs for all but the most niche applications like indoor forklifts.

GRA · Aug 22, 2016

Via GCC:

Nel ASA secures repeat-order for 2 new hydrogen stations

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160822-nel.html

Nel Hydrogen Solutions has secured a repeat-order for two new CAR-200 hydrogen stations from an undisclosed European customer. . . .

The repeat order for two additional H2Station CAR-200 and associated equipment has a total value of approx. €2 million and is planned for delivery in 2017.

At current exchange rates, that's ~$1.13 million apiece. Here's the link to the product page, which also compares it to their previous generation (it's 2/3rd smaller and more than 3 x faster): http://h2logic.com/products-services/h2station-car-200/

RegGuheert · Aug 22, 2016

GRA said:
At current exchange rates, that's ~$1.13 million apiece.

That's a lot of money for the equivalent of a single gas pump and storage tank which can service about 10 vehicles per hour for three hours peak and a total of about 60 vehicles per day. How much do gasoline pumps go for these days?

If you want to get your hydrogen from water, you have to pay extra for an electrolyzer and the electronic its to run it.

rmay635703 · Aug 23, 2016

So how far off and how efficient do you think Nissans alcohol powered fuel cell will be
(getting back into the reality of reasonably priced equipment actually going to market)

ydnas7 · Aug 23, 2016

rmay635703 said:
So how far off and how efficient do you think Nissans alcohol powered fuel cell will be
(getting back into the reality of reasonably priced equipment actually going to market)

Alcohol fuel Cell from Nissan will be south America targeted range of vehicles. So probably only 2-3 years away from sale in Brazil.

Non south American sales, - doubt it. How many Zoe are sold in USA or Japan?

Alcohol fuel Cell vehicles are primarily EVs for places that lack electricity, ie not even street lights. developing world.

GRA · Aug 23, 2016

RegGuheert said:
GRA said:

At current exchange rates, that's ~$1.13 million apiece.

Click to expand...

That's a lot of money for the equivalent of a single gas pump and storage tank which can service about 10 vehicles per hour for three hours peak and a total of about 60 vehicles per day. How much do gasoline pumps go for these days?

Yes, they're still expensive, as is to be expected this early on. One source (see below) says about $12k - $15k for a normal liquid fuel dispenser. I did find prices for used and refurbished ones, and they seem to run about $3,500 - $7,500. Hardly surprising, as they're mass-produced and have more than a century of development and refinement behind them. OTOH, as I read the CAR-200 spec sheet, it appears to include a lot more than just the dispenser itself. I don't know what the typical gas blender pump goes for, but to be a fair comparison I suspect you'd have to include their price as well. Most stations that offer 3 grades of gas actually have just two tanks, regular and premium, using a special pump to blend them on the fly for those who want mid-grade. Here's one account of an E85 blender installation, upgrading an existing system:

Vollan: “We spent $18,000 per dispenser on our blenders, versus a standard issue pump that was around $12,000, so the difference was about $6,000 per dispenser,” said Vollan. “We have two, so it was an extra $12,000.”

Good: “My original estimate was $153,000 for my project. With the blender pump and the new tank and lines to handle it, it was $247,000. I found that I could get $100,000 from the renewable fuels people - $50,000 for the ethanol and $50,000 for the biodiesel. And then I found out I could get back up to 25 percent of the unfunded project back through the Rural Iowa Development Fund. So I went ahead and applied for that, and I held off, because you can’t break ground until they score it and award it. The total project, because we ran into a few problems, was $279,000, and out of that I got $131,650 back, so it actually cost me less, with the help that I got from the renewable fuels people, to offer more to the public.”

https://ethanol.org/for-petroleum-marketers/blender-pumps

I don't know how those prices stack up compared to regular gas blender pumps, but the tech is the same; I assume there may be some detail differences in materials.

RegGuheert said:
If you want to get your hydrogen from water, you have to pay extra for an electrolyzer and the electronic its to run it

Sure.

GRA · Aug 23, 2016

Via GCC, a lab result (usual caveats apply):

New LANL membrane bridges operational gap between low- and high-temperature PEM fuel cells; potential for lower cost systems

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160823-llnl.html

. . . Currently, two main classes of polymer-based fuel cells exist. One is the class of low-temperature fuel cells that require water for proton conduction and cannot operate above 100 °C. The other type is high-temperature fuel cells that can operate up to 180 °C without water; however, the performance degrades under water-absorbing conditions below 140 °C.

There’s a huge benefit to running fuel cells at the widest possible operating temperature with water tolerance. But current fuel-cell vehicles need humidified inlet streams and large radiators to dissipate waste heat, which can increase the fuel-cell system cost substantially, so people have looked for materials that can conduct protons under flexible operating conditions. It is very exciting that we have now found such materials.

—Yu Seung Kim, the project leader at Los Alamos. . . .

Such an advance would certainly improve the looks (as well as costs) of cars like the Mirai and Clarity.

GRA · Aug 24, 2016

Via GCC:

DOE issues FY17 SBIR Phase I Release 1 FOA; includes fuel cell catalysts and hydrogen delivery

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/doe-issues-fy17-sbir-phase-i-release-1-foa-includes-fuel-cell-catalysts-and-hydrogen-delivery.html

The US Department of Energy (DOE) has issued the 2017 Small Business Innovation Research and Small Business Technology Transfer (SBIR/STTR) Phase I Release 1 Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA), including two subtopics focused on hydrogen and fuel cell technologies.

DOE had released the original relevant topics in July. (Earlier post.) The current document is revision 7, with modifications made in each of the subsequent versions.

The fuel cell subtopic includes novel, durable supports for low-platinum group metal (PGM) catalysts for polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cells. The hydrogen delivery subtopic focuses on metal hydride materials for compression. . . .

GRA · Aug 25, 2016

Lab results (usual caveats) via GCC:

Swiss team develops effective and low-cost solar water-splitting device; 14.2% solar-to-hydrogen efficiency

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160824-epfl.html

Using commercially available solar cells and none of the usual rare metals, researchers at the Swiss Center for Electronics and Microtechnology (CSEM) and École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) have designed an intrinsically stable and scalable solar water splitting device that is fully based on earth-abundant materials, with a solar-to-hydrogen conversion efficiency of 14.2%. . . .

A 12-14 m2 system installed in Switzerland would allow the generation and storage of enough hydrogen to power a fuel cell car over 10,000 km every year.

—Christophe Ballif, co-author . . . .

As has been discussed elsewhere in regard to solar EV charging, that's about the size of a standard (18' x 8' = 144 ft.^2 or 13.38m^2) parking space. They were using heterojunction cells. I'm guessing something under 22% efficient, the current max., as later the article says "The researchers used standard heterojunction cells to prove the concept; by using the best cells of that type, they would expect to achieve a performance above 16%."

Also GCC:

Protonex fuel cell propulsion systems for civilian unmanned vehicles now EAR99-compliant for export

Protonex fuel cell propulsion systems for civilian unmanned vehicles now EAR99-compliant for export

Ballard Power Systems announced that the company’s subsidiary, Protonex, received notification from the US Department of Commerce that its family of fuel cell propulsion systems are now designated as EAR99 (Export Administration Regulations 99) compliant, creating a path for commercial export and deployment in a variety of civilian unmanned vehicle applications. . . .

GRA · Aug 27, 2016

Via GCC:

Report: Hyundai to introduce new fuel-cell vehicle in 2018 at half the price of Tucson Fuel Cell

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160826-hyundai.html

The Korea Herald reported that Hyundai Motor plans to unveil a new fuel-cell electric vehicle with a price tag of 60 million won (~US$53,900)—around half the price of the current Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell. With Korean government subsidies of 27.5 million won (~US$24,700), the purchase price for customers could be lowered to about 33.5 million won (~US$30,100). At the same time, the driving range will increase from the current 415 kilometers (258 miles) to 600 kilometers (373 miles) . . . .

DNAinaGoodWay · Aug 30, 2016

Trucks!

Chevrolet's next fuel-cell concept is unlike any you've seen before - Roadshow - CNET
https://apple.news/AQUTpBG4NOY2jHHCHPlzSaQ

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