Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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Via GCC, some more detail on the $35M for various fuel cell research grants mentioned a couple of posts back:
DOE to issue $35M funding opportunity for hydrogen and fuel cell technology; Class 1-2 fuel cell plug-in hybrids
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/01/20150124-fcto.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some edited excerpts (just the titles):

Area of Interest 1: Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Technologies Research and Development (R&D)

1. Hydrogen Production R&D: Microbial Biomass Conversion.

2. Fuel Cell Technologies R&D: Low Platinum Group Metal Catalysts and Supports.

3. Hydrogen Delivery R&D: Integrated Intelligent Hydrogen Dispensers for 700 bar Gaseous Refueling of Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles.

4. Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Manufacturing R&D: Hydrogen Delivery Pipeline Manufacturing.


Area of Interest 2: Demonstration and Deployments to Enable Early Adoption of Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Technologies.

1. Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technology Validation: Mobile Refueling.

2. Market Transformation: Demonstration and Deployment of Plug-In Fuel Cell Hybrid Electric Light-Duty Vehicle.

3. FCTO Crosscutting: America’s Climate Communities of Excellence.
 
Reddy said:
Latest operating H2 station, now approved to sell by Kg. Only capable of making 60 Kg/day or about 3000 mi of driving distance. It looks like this will be a good test unit to determine costs, applicability, etc. Hopefully, it will use excess renewables (when ever we finally put too many solar electrons on the grid).
The Cal State L.A. (CSULA) Hydrogen Research and Fueling Facility has become the first hydrogen station in California to be certified to sell fuel to the public by the kilogram measure
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/01/20150121-csula.html
Another similar similar article: http://insideevs.com/california-gets-first-hydrogen-station-can-actually-sell-fuel/
 
Via GCC:
Symbio FCell delivers first 5 Kangoo ZE electric utilities with fuel cell range extenders in La Manche
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/01/20150126-symbio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These appear to be separate from the postal vans they had delivered for test last year.

Short quote:
Symbio FCell has delivered the first five Renault Kangoo ZE Light commercial vehicles (LCVs) powered by its hydrogen Fuel Cell Range-Extender, as part of a full fleet project led by the Conseil Général de la Manche which will ultimately deploy 40 vehicles. (Earlier post.) La Manche is a département in West Normandy, France.
 
Neat! I think a PHEV-H2 vehicle makes some sense. Get 40 mi EV from the grid and then have a supply of H2 on board that is used after 40 mi. This might make large PHEV trucks more viable. Maybe CARB should require that all H2 vehicles have plugs and a minimum 40 mi EV range :eek:
 
http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2015_01_29_why_EV_winter_range_loss_is_both_fact_and_fiction
As my wife and I buckled our kids into the back seat, the woman spoke up, a look of mild concern on her face. “Does it really only get 50 miles of range in the winter?” she asked. Clearly she was looking for an honest answer from a real-world LEAF driver. Did the LEAF’s EPA-rated 85 miles of range really take a severe hit when the mercury dipped?

“No, not at all,” I told her honestly and confidently. Even in very cold weather, I was consistently getting 70+ miles out of a charge, and frequently closer to 80....

The long and short of it all is that you can maintain range or curtail it severely, with your range ultimately less dependent on outside temperature and more dependent on how you use the car. That includes how you choose to maintain your own personal thermal comfort while driving in cold weather. Let me put that more bluntly: if you use the cabin heater, kiss a significant percent of your range goodbye. If, on the other hand, you choose other strategies to stay comfortable, you’ll make only a tiny dent in your estimated range.
 
AndyH said:
http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2015_01_29_why_EV_winter_range_loss_is_both_fact_and_fiction
As my wife and I buckled our kids into the back seat, the woman spoke up, a look of mild concern on her face. “Does it really only get 50 miles of range in the winter?” she asked. Clearly she was looking for an honest answer from a real-world LEAF driver. Did the LEAF’s EPA-rated 85 miles of range really take a severe hit when the mercury dipped?

“No, not at all,” I told her honestly and confidently. Even in very cold weather, I was consistently getting 70+ miles out of a charge, and frequently closer to 80....

The long and short of it all is that you can maintain range or curtail it severely, with your range ultimately less dependent on outside temperature and more dependent on how you use the car. That includes how you choose to maintain your own personal thermal comfort while driving in cold weather. Let me put that more bluntly: if you use the cabin heater, kiss a significant percent of your range goodbye. If, on the other hand, you choose other strategies to stay comfortable, you’ll make only a tiny dent in your estimated range.

The link isn't working.

Is there a connection to H2 in this?
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
AndyH said:
http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2015_01_29_why_EV_winter_range_loss_is_both_fact_and_fiction
As my wife and I buckled our kids into the back seat, the woman spoke up, a look of mild concern on her face. “Does it really only get 50 miles of range in the winter?” she asked. Clearly she was looking for an honest answer from a real-world LEAF driver. Did the LEAF’s EPA-rated 85 miles of range really take a severe hit when the mercury dipped?

“No, not at all,” I told her honestly and confidently. Even in very cold weather, I was consistently getting 70+ miles out of a charge, and frequently closer to 80....

The long and short of it all is that you can maintain range or curtail it severely, with your range ultimately less dependent on outside temperature and more dependent on how you use the car. That includes how you choose to maintain your own personal thermal comfort while driving in cold weather. Let me put that more bluntly: if you use the cabin heater, kiss a significant percent of your range goodbye. If, on the other hand, you choose other strategies to stay comfortable, you’ll make only a tiny dent in your estimated range.

The link isn't working.

Is there a connection to H2 in this?
The link is accurate and works for me on a Windows 7 machine with both Chrome and IE.

Yes - it highlights the concerns of an EV shopper, reflects real-world capability, and describes what a current BEVer must do to maintain most of their range in the winter.
 
OK, link is working now. Still no connection to H2 though. Yes, current EVs suffer winter range loss to varying degrees. The next gen BEVs will make winter easier. Looking forward to it.
 
Via GCC:
Van Hool wins EU funding for 21 fuel cell buses; powered by Ballard FCvelocity-HD7 modules
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/01/20150129-vanhool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aside from the details on the buses themselves, I thought these bits of info were interesting:

The two Solaris buses are part of a trial and evaluation of alternative drive technologies, being undertaken by the City of Hamburg. Buses that use alternative drive technologies will be deployed along a single route by Hamburger Hochbahn, in order to compare performance of each technology under the same operating conditions. Two different fuel cell hybrid bus designs—including the Solaris design—as well as a plug-in hybrid bus platform, will be trialed beginning this month.

The EU Hydrogen Fuel Cell Joint Undertaking is a public-private partnership supporting research, technological development and demonstration activities in fuel cell and hydrogen energy technologies, providing subsidies for eligible projects through a cost share mechanism. Under Framework FP7, the European Commission and industry have each committed €470 million (US$530 million) of funding for fuel cell & hydrogen research and demonstrations through the 2008-14 period. The next program, Horizon 2020, extends this initiative to the year 2020 with an incremental budget of €700 million (US$790 million), including 50% cost share from the industry.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
OK, link is working now. Still no connection to H2 though. Yes, current EVs suffer winter range loss to varying degrees. The next gen BEVs will make winter easier. Looking forward to it.

His point relates to FCEVs in that it's potentially an "easier sell" than BEVs in the near future, i.e. as opposed
to total vehicle energy being supplied by a battery.
 
lorenfb said:
DNAinaGoodWay said:
OK, link is working now. Still no connection to H2 though. Yes, current EVs suffer winter range loss to varying degrees. The next gen BEVs will make winter easier. Looking forward to it.

His point relates to FCEVs in that it's potentially an "easier sell" than BEVs in the near future, i.e. as opposed
to total vehicle energy being supplied by a battery.

It might be an easier sell in the near future if it sells in the $30k range and fuel is available. At current projected prices and with fuel constraints, a used Tesla would be an easier sell. In just a couple more years, still in the $30-40k range, a next gen BEV will still be an easier sell. Less winter range loss is nice, but not worth the price premium while still tethered to scant fuel supply.
 
smkettner said:
All FCEVs include free fuel. Who thinks this will go on in perpetuity?
We will see who is in or out when they have to pay at the pump.
Let alone drive well out of their way for the privilege of paying. I (and more importantly, Mr. Musk) agree on the "We will see" part, as well: it's almost not worth arguing about* ** since in the next few years it will become very apparent.


* Unless one is specifically and publicly addressing CARB or some other regulatory agency regarding public spending and forward-looking policy on credits, subsidies, infrastructure, etc.
* Or if one just likes arguing! ;-)

** He addresses the fuel cell question (again) starting at about 10:00 in the video.
 
Well the fact that no one can address what the cost of filling up would cost, it seems reasonable to assume that the cost will be really high. I do not see the benefit.

PV and EV are the only way to go. IMHO
 
The Tokyo figures demonstrate real world HFC subsidies cost. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-19/tokyo-to-get-385-million-hydrogen-makeover-for-olympics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
$385 million / 6k cars is more than $60k per car in subsidies


free Tesla's anyone? this is more than a Tesla lease and is very close to outright Tesla purchase!!!
 
Via GCC:
Ricardo-AEA, E4tech to run hydrogen refueling station competition in UK
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150202-ricardoaea.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The basic info:
Grant funding of £3.5 million (US$5.3 million) will be provided through the scheme to develop up to [Note: between four and] seven new, fully functional, hydrogen refueling stations, with a further £2 million (US$3 million) being made available to upgrade up to [Note: between 6 and] eight existing demonstration stations [Note: technical and operational improvements to bring them to commercial standard].

Ricardo-AEA will oversee the submission of infrastructure proposals through its online application portal, before technically reviewing the applications and making a formal recommendation to OLEV. Technical experts within Ricardo-AEA and E4tech will judge applications on how well they meet a range of criteria, including the role they will play in an early hydrogen network.
 
Via ABG and Teslarati:
Tesla Battery Range in Sub-Zero and Snowy Conditions
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm guessing the Model X will be 10-20% worse. We need someone with a Tucson FCV to do comparable tests, but that's a bit difficult at the moment given their current restriction to SoCal, where finding temps that low isn't possible, at least not easily within range of the existing fuel stations. We'll have to wait until Truckee opens later this year and they start leasing them in NorCal. Although not a direct comparison, it's the best we've got for now.

Meanwhile, via GCC:
Volkswagen Group acquires Ballard automotive fuel cell patent portfolio, extends engineering services contract in US$80+ million deal
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150211-volkswagen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Via GCC:
Toyota, Nissan, and Honda jointly to support hydrogen station infrastructure development
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150212-h2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This may refer only to Japan, but details are vague/non-existent so it could be worldwide.
 
GRA said:
Via GCC:
Toyota, Nissan, and Honda jointly to support hydrogen station infrastructure development
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150212-h2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This may refer only to Japan, but details are vague/non-existent so it could be worldwide.

The article that I read mentioned only Japan, where their government is throwing gobs of hydrogen bucks around.

Nissan has very recently reinforced their commitment to EV for North America.
 
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