Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/hphsc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FWIW
H2 tank grade, going from 35MPA to 70MPA adds about 30% more storage

infrastructure wise, 70MPA tanks require prechilled H2, (-20C or -40C) whereas 35MPA tanks are permissible to be filled with 0C or ambient temperature H2. There is significant cost implications transitioning from 35MPa to 70MPa

ydnas7 said:

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/hphsc.html

FWIW
H2 tank grade, going from 35MPA to 70MPA adds about 30% more storage

infrastructure wise, 70MPA tanks require prechilled H2, (-20C or -40C) whereas 35MPA tanks are permissible to be filled with 0C or ambient temperature H2. There is significant cost implications transitioning from 35MPa to 70MPa

Click to expand...

I'll just add that to the list. How much energy is required to keep 1 kg of stored H2 at -20C to -40C whilst waiting for a car to fill?

Well, it's actually two parts to the cooling... First getting it that cool, which would be a considerable power draw, then keeping it cool.

evnow said:

GRA said:

Just like there was a massive infrastructure problem with gas stations, but that was solved quite rapidly once the need was there ...

Click to expand...

With zero public funds. I'd be happy with that - but put the probability somewhere near zero.

Click to expand...

Well then, since the only reason we have BEVs or most public and much private charging infrastructure at all is because of public funds, BEVs must make you equally unhappy.

evnow said:

GRA said:

Yes, it's a terrible thing to have an article written by someone who's worked with and/or been a partisan of fuel cells, as opposed to all those other articles written by those who've worked with/are partisans of BEVs.

Click to expand...

It is terrible when he "conveniently" doesn't mention the biggest problem at all.

Click to expand...

It's not going to be a problem in California, which is the only place they will be sold initially, so who cares? We're doing the R&D to get the price down to commercial viability; if we can't, then that's an end to it, and if we can (QC companies have yet to achieve commercial viability), then they'll take off in the rest of the country. I've recently read "The Gas Station in America", by John A Jakle and Keith A Sculle, 1994, to get a feel for how quickly such an expensive infrastructure can be installed, provided the need is there and it's commercially viable. Here's the total # of U.S. stations from 1920 to 1990 (remember that the first U.S. gas station only opened in 1913, and the major boom in the U.S. car fleet came after WW1):

1920 15,000
1930 123,979
1958 193,948
1969 236,000 approx.
1970 216,059
1980 158,540
1990 111,657

Owing to SUVs and incredibly cheap gas, the number of stations then started to climb again, peaking in the first decade of this century around 165 or 170 thousand before rapidly decreasing again to the current total, as prices rose and people switched to more fuel efficient cars and drove less.

So, from zero to 15,000 in just 7 years, with a small but rapidly growing car fleet. H2 stations will be more expensive than a gas station initially but are in the same order of magnitude, and prices will come down with volume, experience and technical advances. IF (a big if) they can get the H2 costs below gas, they're good to go.

News Release

For Immediate Release
July 31, 2014

Media Contacts:
Teresa Schilling, Energy Commission, (916) 654-4989
Dave Clegern, Air Resources Board, (916) 322-2990
Brook Taylor, GO-Biz, (916) 322-0667


California Agencies Roll Out Red Carpet for Hydrogen Electric Vehicles

State partnerships accelerate the transition to zero-emission vehicles


Sacramento - California state agencies are collaborating on a range of initiatives to support the goal of 1.5 million zero-emission vehicles on the road by 2025. [http://opr.ca.gov/docs/Governor's_Office_ZEV_Action_Plan_(02-13).pdf]

Last week, the California Energy Commission [http://www.energy.ca.gov] carried out one of these initiatives, voting to use nearly $50 million to put in place 28 new, public hydrogen refueling stations and one mobile refueler by the end of 2015. The move was one of several actions designed to help achieve a key goal of the state's zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) plan: to accelerate construction of hydrogen refueling infrastructure across the state.

"California is rolling out the carpet for Californians who choose these ultra-clean hydrogen powered electric cars and for the companies that make them," said Air Resources Board Chairman Mary D. Nichols. [http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm] "These private-public partnerships to build dozens of hydrogen fueling stations set the stage for hydrogen fuel cell electric cars to become commonplace on our streets and provide a new generation of long-range zero-emission vehicles for California consumers."

"Making the transition to cleaner, lower polluting near-zero and zero-emission vehicles is a critical component to addressing California's clean air and climate challenges. The transportation sector accounts for about 40 percent of the state's greenhouse gas emissions," said Commissioner Janea A. Scott, the Energy Commission's lead commissioner on transportation. "We are pleased to be part of this state collaboration and will continue to work diligently on standing up hydrogen fuel cells and other electric vehicle technologies."

Today in Silicon Valley, the Governor's Office of Business and Economic Development (GO-Biz) [http://business.ca.gov/] and the California Fuel Cell Partnership [http://cafcp.org] are holding an in-depth workshop with local officials to discuss the deployment of hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) and supporting hydrogen refueling infrastructure.

State has many partners

The state's effort to bring more FCEVs to the road and the infrastructure to fuel them features support from Toyota, station developers, the Fuel Cell Partnership, the Air Resources Board, the California Energy Commission and GO-Biz.

GO-Biz brings hands-on experience cutting through red tape, which will be used to get stations permitted and constructed in a timely manner. The Air Resources Board and Energy Commission provide the longest running state-level experience in the country when it comes to hydrogen vehicle and infrastructure development.

New money for refueling stations

Twenty hydrogen refueling stations have received funding from the Energy Commission [http://www.energy.ca.gov/releases/2014_releases/2014-05-01_hydrogen_refueling_stations_funding_awards_nr.html] and 28 more stations are scheduled:

- First Element (19 stations in partnership with Toyota)
- HyGen Industries (3 stations)
- Linde, LLC (2 stations)
- Air Liquide Industrial US LP (1 station)
- ITM Power, Inc. (1 station)
- Hydrogen Technology & Energy Corporation (1 station)
- Ontario CNG Station, Inc. (1 station)
- Institute of Gas Technology (1 mobile refueling station)

There are currently 10 operational hydrogen refueling stations in California-the most recent opened in May 2014 on the CSU Los Angeles campus. With the announcement of Energy Commission funding for additional stations, California is slated to have 51 public hydrogen refueling facilities on line by 2017.

Two-hundred-million dollars in cap-and-trade proceeds has been allocated for low-carbon transportation projects, $116 million of which is slated for the Clean Vehicle Rebate Project, [http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aqip/cvrp.htm] providing up to $5,000 per vehicle.

To date the state has committed about $110 million to hydrogen infrastructure. This puts California on a glide path to 100 stations, the state's goal for launching a commercially self-sustaining network to support a growing number of FCEVs.

Across America

The second initiative involves California joining two national programs organized by the U.S. Department of Energy to develop hydrogen infrastructure across the country.

First, the Hydrogen Fueling Infrastructure Research and Station Technology (H2FIRST) [http://energy.gov/eere/articles/leveraging-national-laboratories-support-h2usa] project is led by the Sandia Laboratories and the Department of Energy's National Energy Renewable Laboratory. By focusing on the national laboratories' core capabilities, the effort will speed and support the widespread deployment of FCEVs.

The H2FIRST project will complement California's second national partnership, H2USA [ http://www.energy.ca.gov/releases/2014_releases/2014-04-29_Energy_Commission_and_ARB_H2USA_news_release.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]. This public-private partnership brings together automakers, government agencies, gas suppliers, and the hydrogen and fuel cell industries to coordinate research and identify cost-effective ways to deploy infrastructure that can deliver affordable, clean hydrogen fuel in the United States.

East coast, West coast collaboration

Another initiative has California working with other states to harmonize regulations and building codes to ease the location and construction of refueling stations for hydrogen and electric vehicles. An eight-state ZEV Action Plan [ http://www.nescaum.org/documents/multi-state-zev-action-plan.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ] released last month lays the foundation to coordinate
efforts among California, New York, Maryland, Connecticut, Oregon, Massachusetts, Vermont
and Rhode Island.

The goal of this collaborative effort is to put 3.3 million ZEVs on the highways in those states by 2025 with the goals of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, improving air quality and public health, while enhancing energy diversity, saving consumers money and promoting economic growth.

# # #

About the Energy Commission

The California Energy Commission is the state's primary energy policy and planning agency. Created by the Legislature in 1974 and based in Sacramento, the Energy Commission has seven core responsibilities that guide its actions when setting state energy policy: advancing state energy policies; forecasting future energy needs; licensing thermal power plants 50 megawatts or larger; promoting energy efficiency and conservation by setting the state's appliance and building efficiency standards; supporting public interest energy research that advances energy science and technology through research, development, and demonstration projects; developing renewable energy resources and alternative renewable energy technologies for buildings, industry and transportation; and planning for and directing state response to energy emergencies.

About the Air Resources Board

ARB's mission is to promote and protect public health, welfare, and ecological resources through effective reduction of air pollutants while recognizing and considering effects on the economy. The ARB oversees all air pollution control efforts in California to attain and maintain health based air quality standards.

About GO-Biz

The Governor's Office of Business and Economic Development (GO-Biz) was created by Governor Edmund G. Brown Jr. to serve as California's single point of contact for economic development and job creation efforts. GO-Biz offers a range of services to business owners including: attraction, retention and expansion services, site selection, permit streamlining, clearing of regulatory hurdles, small business assistance, international trade development, assistance with state government, and much more.



Additional News Releases:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/releases/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(If link above doesn't work, please copy entire link into your web browser's URL)



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Via GCC:

"Anglo American Platinum invests in Hydrogenious Technologies; liquid organic hydrogen carrier technology for H2 storage"

"Instead of storing hydrogen either under high pressure of up to 700 bar or in liquid form at –253 °C, Hydrogenious’ technology catalytically binds and releases the hydrogen molecules to liquid organic hydrogen carriers (LOHCs). The proposed LOHC compounds have many physico-chemical similarities to diesel. Thus, LOHCs could make use of the existing energy infrastructure (e.g. tank ships, storage tanks or fueling stations) and enable a slow and step-wise replacement of the existing hydrocarbon fuels by alternative LOHC fuels. . .

"Hydrogenious is developing HydroSTORE, a stationary storage system, to offer solutions to the increasing energy storage needs arising out of further expansion of renewable energy generation. The flexibility to decouple input power, output power and storage capacity would contribute to grid stabilization and grid independence.

"The Bavarian Hydrogen Center is hosting a demonstrator system based on the LOHC technology developed at the University of Erlangen. In this system hydrogen is generated via electrolysis by means of surplus renewable energy (for example, from a photovoltaic system) and stored chemically using LOHCs in a conventional fuel tank at ambient conditions. The hydrogen can be released and converted back into electricity in a fuel cell when required.

"A storage facility will be built and installed at a residential building in Erlangen during the course of this project. Besides supplying the house with electricity, the heat generated can be used to heat the house. This storage facility is currently under development and is expected to be installed mid-2014."

Full article at http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/08/20140804-hydrogenious.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who knows if they can commercialize it, but very interesting.

So none of these companies and/or people can do math? As Homer Simpson has said, to daughter Lisa, "we obey the laws of thermodynamics in this household"!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We'd rather continue with the current system? really? I guess the "we" is just the fossil-fuel industry. "what if we just use our product, like we always have, but in a less efficient way, greenwashing the whole affair?" Okay I see now. Money rules! No way math or common sense could win that one. (shakes head)

finman100 said:

So none of these companies and/or people can do math? As Homer Simpson has said, to daughter Lisa, "we obey the laws of thermodynamics in this household"!

<snip>

We'd rather continue with the current system? really? I guess the "we" is just the fossil-fuel industry. "what if we just use our product, like we always have, but in a less efficient way, greenwashing the whole affair?" Okay I see now. Money rules! No way math or common sense could win that one. (shakes head)

Click to expand...

I expect they've done far more math than the rest of us combined, and have reached the conclusion that they can do this at a profit, which is what is necessary for H2 viability in the long run. The H2, at least in California, will have to become increasingly made using renewables, up from the current requirement of 33%. The petroleum industry has the knowledge and capital to make a H2 infrastructure happen quite quickly if the demand exists, and they will be competing against companies using 100% renewables for H2 generation all the way. Although H2 will never be as energy efficient as BEVs, as has been pointed out all through this thread energy efficiency has rarely been the primary driver of consumer choice; price, convenience and flexibility have won out. Whichever EV technology is ultimately chosen, I don't expect that to change.

GRA said:

I expect they've done far more math than the rest of us combined, and have reached the conclusion that they can do this at a profit, which is what is necessary for H2 viability in the long run.

Click to expand...

Not all profits are over long long runs.

Some, not all, of the players in H2 are more interested in short term goals. Like politics. Like avoiding building BEVs.

WetEV said:

GRA said:

I expect they've done far more math than the rest of us combined, and have reached the conclusion that they can do this at a profit, which is what is necessary for H2 viability in the long run.

Click to expand...

Not all profits are over long long runs.

Some, not all, of the players in H2 are more interested in short term goals. Like politics. Like avoiding building BEVs.

Click to expand...

Sure, and some aren't. From GCR:

"First Element Expects To Make Money Selling Hydrogen Fuel In 5 Years"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093759_first-element-expects-to-make-money-selling-hydrogen-fuel-in-5-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA said:

<snip>

Although H2 will never be as energy efficient as BEVs, as has been pointed out all through this thread energy efficiency has rarely been the primary driver of consumer choice; price, convenience and flexibility have won out. Whichever EV technology is ultimately chosen, I don't expect that to change.

Click to expand...

Case in point: "Sure, SUVs Are Back--But They're Not Your Father's SUVs"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093761_sure-suvs-are-back--but-theyre-not-your-fathers-suvs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA said:

WetEV said:

GRA said:

I expect they've done far more math than the rest of us combined, and have reached the conclusion that they can do this at a profit, which is what is necessary for H2 viability in the long run.

Click to expand...

Not all profits are over long long runs.

Some, not all, of the players in H2 are more interested in short term goals. Like politics. Like avoiding building BEVs.

Click to expand...

Sure, and some aren't. From GCR:

"First Element Expects To Make Money Selling Hydrogen Fuel In 5 Years"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093759_first-element-expects-to-make-money-selling-hydrogen-fuel-in-5-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

That is rich... the company receiving hand outs from government and industry is painting a rosy picture! Wow, who saw that coming?

Ecotality / Blink was going to take over the world, too, after over $100 MILLION in government graft for their low quality, behind schedule electric vehicle charging network.

The very minute the government graft stopped, so did Blink.

TonyWilliams said:

GRA said:

WetEV said:

Not all profits are over long long runs.

Some, not all, of the players in H2 are more interested in short term goals. Like politics. Like avoiding building BEVs.

Click to expand...

Sure, and some aren't. From GCR:

"First Element Expects To Make Money Selling Hydrogen Fuel In 5 Years"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093759_first-element-expects-to-make-money-selling-hydrogen-fuel-in-5-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

That is rich... the company receiving hand outs from government and industry is painting a rosy picture! Wow, who saw that coming?

Ecotality / Blink was going to take over the world, too, after over $100 MILLION in government graft for their low quality, behind schedule electric vehicle charging network.

The very minute the government graft stopped, so did Blink.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, there's no guarantee. And here we are, more than 3.5 years into QC deployment, much of it paid for by the government and most of the rest by the car companies, and yet we still don't have a charging company that uses point of sale billing able to charge less than it costs to fill up a Prius for the same mileage, and make a profit. Judged purely on long-term business viability, QC is a complete bust to date. It remains to be seen whether H2 will be also, but at least the companies acknowledge going in that it will have to be cheaper than gas to succeed in the mass market.

GRA said:

Absolutely, there's no guarantee. And here we are, more than 3.5 years into QC deployment, much of it paid for by the government and most of the rest by the car companies, and yet we still don't have a charging company that uses point of sale billing able to charge less than it costs to fill up a Prius for the same mileage, and make a profit. Judged purely on long-term business viability, QC is a complete bust to date. It remains to be seen whether H2 will be also, but at least the companies acknowledge going in that it will have to be cheaper than gas to succeed in the mass market.

Click to expand...

Well, you're pricing two different things. Home refueling and fast ad hoc refueling:


COST PER MILE FOR TYPICAL MID SIZED 5 PASSENGER CAR

--------------- Home ------ Fast Ad Hoc -----

Electricity ---- $0.04 ------ $0.02 to insanity

Hydrogen ----- N/A -------- $0.16 to $0.25

Gasoline ------ N/A -------- $0.13 to $0.18


The amortized cost to drive that EV mostly on home electricity with minority public paid fast refueling is far, far cheaper than a Prius. But, of course, the Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM) crowd will not do that, and instead keep two cars to do the job of one. It's odd that the cost of keeping two cars isn't factored into that cost.


Electricity ---- $0.04 - average $0.12 per kWh at 333 wattHours per mile consumed
---------------- $0.02 to insanity - Tesla Supercharger at 150,000 miles divided by $2500 expense equals 2 cents per mile. The EVOasis CHAdeMO chargers at 15 cents per minute can add about 2 miles per minute, therefore $0.075 per mile. Paying a flat fee for a government funded Blink and only charging one minute falls into the insanity cost area. Can be refueled from 100% renewable energy with zero carbon added to the atmosphere.

Hydrogen ----- N/A -------- $0.16 to $0.25 - hydrogen home refueling isn't widely adopted (well, neither are hydrogen cars), but at $4 per kg with each kg equalling the same range as a gallon of gasoline means that a 25mpg equivalent car costs $0.16 per mile in hydrogen costs. Clearly, hydrogen that costs $7 per kg from renewable (non-methane gas sources) would significantly increase the cost.

Gasoline ------ N/A -------- $0.13 to $0.18 - even a 50mpg Prius with $4 per gallon gasoline is $0.125 per mile. Obviously, the price goes up with lessor efficiency cars. Home refueling not really possible.

TonyWilliams said:

The amortized cost to drive that EV mostly on home electricity with minority public paid fast refueling is far, far cheaper than a Prius. But, of course, the Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM) crowd will not do that, and instead keep two cars to do the job of one. It's odd that the cost of keeping two cars isn't factored into that cost.

Click to expand...

In fairness, a great many families keep multiple cars anyway. And no matter how many fast chargers are available, the short-range LEAF just isn't practical for certain trips. Our three cars are shared among three drivers, and on occasion all three are needed simultaneously. At some point, I'd like to replace our older AWD "snow car" with a Tesla X (or other long range EV with AWD), and keep the LEAF and the Prius. (The Prius would then see far less use.)

Tony, I am thankful for your efforts to make Fast Chargers available for fair prices. I'm hopeful that you'll see continued growth in business as longer range EVs become available and capable of using CHAdeMO. If you were to install a Fast Charger right at the base of our mountain, in Highland, CA, we'd become regulars in our LEAF.

When it comes to hydrogen refueling, it would be much more challenging if not impossible for small players like Tony's company to get infrastructure installed. And nobody's going to be sharing hydrogen in PlugShare!

TonyWilliams said:

GRA said:

Absolutely, there's no guarantee. And here we are, more than 3.5 years into QC deployment, much of it paid for by the government and most of the rest by the car companies, and yet we still don't have a charging company that uses point of sale billing able to charge less than it costs to fill up a Prius for the same mileage, and make a profit. Judged purely on long-term business viability, QC is a complete bust to date. It remains to be seen whether H2 will be also, but at least the companies acknowledge going in that it will have to be cheaper than gas to succeed in the mass market.

Click to expand...

Well, you're pricing two different things. Home refueling and fast ad hoc refueling:


COST PER MILE FOR TYPICAL MID SIZED 5 PASSENGER CAR

--------------- Home ------ Fast Ad Hoc -----

Electricity ---- $0.04 ------ $0.02 to insanity

Hydrogen ----- N/A -------- $0.16 to $0.25

Gasoline ------ N/A -------- $0.13 to $0.18


The amortized cost to drive that EV mostly on home electricity with minority public paid fast refueling is far, far cheaper than a Prius. But, of course, the Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM) crowd will not do that, and instead keep two cars to do the job of one. It's odd that the cost of keeping two cars isn't factored into that cost.


Electricity ---- $0.04 - average $0.12 per kWh at 333 wattHours per mile consumed
---------------- $0.02 to insanity - Tesla Supercharger at 150,000 miles divided by $2500 expense equals 2 cents per mile. The EVOasis CHAdeMO chargers at 15 cents per minute can add about 2 miles per minute, therefore $0.075 per mile. Paying a flat fee for a government funded Blink and only charging one minute falls into the insanity cost area. Can be refueled from 100% renewable energy with zero carbon added to the atmosphere.

Hydrogen ----- N/A -------- $0.16 to $0.25 - hydrogen home refueling isn't widely adopted (well, neither are hydrogen cars), but at $4 per kg with each kg equalling the same range as a gallon of gasoline means that a 25mpg equivalent car costs $0.16 per mile in hydrogen costs. Clearly, hydrogen that costs $7 per kg from renewable (non-methane gas sources) would significantly increase the cost.

Click to expand...

Tony, I'm not talking about home H2 refueling at all, I'm talking about H2 station refueling. As to the costs, the goal is to get H2 down to between $2-$4/kg, with one kg of H2 containing ~ the same energy as 1 kg [Edit: 1 gallon] of gas (I recently found a source that IIRR gave H2 as 143 MJ/kg, gas as something like 47.2 MJ/kg). But the kg of H2 will take the car a lot further, seeing as the car has electric drive (assuming it's not an HEV).

TonyWilliams said:

Gasoline ------ N/A -------- $0.13 to $0.18 - even a 50mpg Prius with $4 per gallon gasoline is $0.125 per mile. Obviously, the price goes up with lessor efficiency cars. Home refueling not really possible.

Click to expand...

Certainly not yet, and unlike Andy I don't expect home H2 refueling to be a major player anytime soon, if ever. Most people don't need it, just as they don't need a bulk gas tank in their garage. BTW, you swapped your dividend and divisor - it's $0.08/mile ($4/50 miles = $0.08/mile); you were figuring miles per dollar. H2 prices need to be lower than that to compete, barring a big jump in gas prices.

For those who can afford it and have the necessary infrastructure, a BEV for commuting and something like an FCEV for longer trips will be the way to go. Those who need one car for everything but can do some charging will opt for PHFCEV, and those who can't charge at home will get FCEVs. Actually, all the current and soon to enter production fuel cell vehicles are FCHVs, as they all have a battery (ultracaps instead in the Clarity IIRR) for acceleration and regen. There have been some pure FCEVs, but the current state of the art doesn't seem to favor them.

GRA said:

Certainly not yet, and unlike Andy I don't expect home H2 refueling to be a major player anytime soon, if ever.

Click to expand...

If I'm expected to be the person delivering this message, I demand proper seasoning and that it be cooked at least medium-well, thank you very much. :lol:

I'm not now and have to my knowledge never said that home H2 refueling would be a major player anytime soon. What I have said and stand by is that it's being done today and therefore can be expanded if/as demand increases tomorrow. I said that it's possible because many of the 'aginits' here continue to use the 'possible' metric when 'proving' the superiority of BEV over any other tech.

Further, I don't think that home H2 refueling should be the goal as it's not necessary and is a waste of resources. What I expect to see, should Mr Peabody give us a ride in his new 'WayForward Machine', is a neighborhood/cellular model of refueling deployment that includes H2 and DCFC. But I don't expect this to be adopted by most of the folks alive today over the age of 40 as there's way too much of an attitude probl..er...inertia.

GRA said:

Most people don't need it, just as they don't need a bulk gas tank in their garage.

Click to expand...

One thing that H2 provides that BEVs do not is the ability to keep a 'gas can' in their garage should they desire to do so. Many people won't desire, and many people won't need - especially once the infrastructure's fleshed out. But it is an available capability that can be useful, and it works even when the power's out. When I made biodiesel from waste oil, I kept 5-gallon cans of fuel in the garage. Today I keep those cans stocked with ethanol. I've found that 'belt and suspenders' capability to be useful when choosing to use fuels that aren't widely available. It's not like any of these ideas are new - my in-laws' place in MA (built in 1928) has an underground fuel tank and a gas pump in the garage, and farmers/ranchers don't drive their tractors to the local truck stop...

AndyH said:

One thing that H2 provides that BEVs do not is the ability to keep a 'gas can' in their garage should they desire to do so.

Click to expand...

Huh? How exactly do you store H2 in a 'gas can' in your garage? And what exactly would you do with it?

It's a very very VERY thick gas can. But the carbon fiber one is thinner. At 10,000psi, don't take the lid off too fast.
:?
.

drees said:

AndyH said:

One thing that H2 provides that BEVs do not is the ability to keep a 'gas can' in their garage should they desire to do so.

Click to expand...

Huh? How exactly do you store H2 in a 'gas can' in your garage? And what exactly would you do with it?

Click to expand...

I've already linked, in this thread, how domestic propane tanks are being used today to store H2. Is it really that significant a stretch for a primarily mature and educated population to understand how one might store a compressed gas? My little garage right now contains compressed natural gas, CO2, oxygen, and acetylene - nothing new here at all.

One doesn't have to store H2 at 10K PSI for it to be useful...

Here's a third example. Solar to electrolysis to car. Yes, it's lower pressure. Yes, the tanks are hydride, not 35 or 70 bar, but it's home refueling...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GDjVskYIs[/youtube]

This is four hydride tanks feeding an ICE in a Corvette - 400 miles range.

And a fourth example...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIhO0OoS8V0[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLOHGLUCi7g[/youtube]

Refilling hybrid tanks. Company sells tanks, fuel cells, and support equipment used to generate electricity in remote locations and to feed electric motors on sailboats.
http://agofuelcells.com/index.html

This ain't rocket surgery, guys...

AndyH said:

GRA said:

Certainly not yet, and unlike Andy I don't expect home H2 refueling to be a major player anytime soon, if ever.

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If I'm expected to be the person delivering this message, I demand proper seasoning and that it be cooked at least medium-well, thank you very much. :lol:

I'm not now and have to my knowledge never said that home H2 refueling would be a major player anytime soon. What I have said and stand by is that it's being done today and therefore can be expanded if/as demand increases tomorrow. I said that it's possible because many of the 'aginits' here continue to use the 'possible' metric when 'proving' the superiority of BEV over any other tech.

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Okay, my bad. The impression I got was that you were saying that this could be scaled up relatively rapidly, and that off-the shelf cost-effective tech was available now.

AndyH said:

Further, I don't think that home H2 refueling should be the goal as it's not necessary and is a waste of resources. What I expect to see, should Mr Peabody give us a ride in his new 'WayForward Machine', is a neighborhood/cellular model of refueling deployment that includes H2 and DCFC. But I don't expect this to be adopted by most of the folks alive today over the age of 40 as there's way too much of an attitude probl..er...inertia.

GRA said:

Most people don't need it, just as they don't need a bulk gas tank in their garage.

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One thing that H2 provides that BEVs do not is the ability to keep a 'gas can' in their garage should they desire to do so. Many people won't desire, and many people won't need - especially once the infrastructure's fleshed out. But it is an available capability that can be useful, and it works even when the power's out. When I made biodiesel from waste oil, I kept 5-gallon cans of fuel in the garage. Today I keep those cans stocked with ethanol. I've found that 'belt and suspenders' capability to be useful when choosing to use fuels that aren't widely available. It's not like any of these ideas are new - my in-laws' place in MA (built in 1928) has an underground fuel tank and a gas pump in the garage, and farmers/ranchers don't drive their tractors to the local truck stop...

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We agree that the most likely place for home H2 storage is in rural areas, just as there are lots of propane tanks and often non-taxed fuel storage now. But that's a very small % of the market, and I'm guessing among the last areas that will change over, unless they've got wind/PV/bio-gas anyway. I'm surprised that your in-laws' place had a fuel tank installed that late, unless it was way out in the boonies at the time. The number of cars increased from 8.1 million (out of something like 10.5 million total motor vehicles) in 1920 to 23.1 million (26.5 million total) by 1929, but the number of gas stations increased from 15,000 to IIRR over 123,000 (the exact figure is in one of my posts upthread) over the same period. So, while the number of passenger vehicles roughly tripled, the number of gas stations increased eight-fold.

A lot of early garages, with or without fuel tanks, were built well-separated from the house out of fire-proof materials, but as knowledge of ICEs and the level of risk improved, they were built attached out of normal stick-built construction.