Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

evnow said:

Reddy said:

Perhaps the real reason for Toyota's push into hydrogen:
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/07/22/japan-offering-20000-incentives-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle/

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I'd say it is the otherway round.

Japan is offering big incentives because Toyota, I'm sure, has a lot of lobbying power in Japan.

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I'd say the $20k is Toyota's way of giving a 20% discount to make up for having to drive 10 or 20 miles to refuel at one of the limited number of hydrogen stations that we'll ALL have to pay for, via higher DMV fees.
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hill said:

evnow said:

Reddy said:

Perhaps the real reason for Toyota's push into hydrogen:
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/07/22/japan-offering-20000-incentives-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle/

Click to expand...

I'd say it is the otherway round.

Japan is offering big incentives because Toyota, I'm sure, has a lot of lobbying power in Japan.

Click to expand...

I'd say the $20k is Toyota's way of giving a 20% discount to make up for having to drive 10 or 20 miles to refuel at one of the limited number of hydrogen stations that we'll ALL have to pay for, via higher DMV fees.
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No one is going to have to drive 10 or 20 miles to refuel, because they don't plan to sell/lease them to people outside of the areas with a local fueling station, where they're aiming for a max. of 6 minutes drive to said station. Of course, if you're willing to drive 10 or 20 miles, they'd probably accomodate you.

TonyWilliams said:

WetEV said:

GRA said:

Via GCC:

"California Energy Commission approves $46.6M for hydrogen refueling and $2.8M for EV charging projects"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/07/20140724-cec.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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And there are X hydrogen cars and Y EV cars....

Is X going to be even 1/10 of Y anytime in the next couple of decades???

Could someone explain the math to me?

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The math is simple... Toyota has done a masterful job of convincing our state that hydrogen is 46.6 / 2.8 times better than electric cars.

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From the article:

". . . the Energy Commission’s Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Program (ARFVTP) has already allocated nearly $400 million to help bolster statewide infrastructure and create a viable market for zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs), and to promote alternative fuels."

I imagine the majority of that has gone to PEVs, although CNG and biofuels have also gotten a chunk. For example, via GCC today:

"California Energy Commission selects 11 advanced biofuels projects for $43.6M in awards"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/07/20140725-cec.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Via GCC:

"Hydrogenics selected for 2 MW Power-to-Gas project in Canada"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/07/20140727-hydrogenics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, from CAFCP:

"A California Road Map The Commercialization of Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles
2014 Update: Hydrogen Progress, Priorities and Opportunities (HyPPO) Report"

http://cafcp.org/sites/files/Roadmap-Progress-Report2014-FINAL.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Much that is in here repeats info in the CARB annual report, but there's also some new info.

GRA said:

Via GCC:

"Hydrogenics selected for 2 MW Power-to-Gas project in Canada"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/07/20140727-hydrogenics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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One leg of the Third Industrial Revolution lands in Ontario - Cool!

Nicely balanced article at GCR:

"Decoding Toyota's Electric-Car Disdain: A Role For Fuel Cells"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... fuel-cells

Via ABG:

"Total government incentives in Japan could top $30,000 for hydrogen cars"

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/07/29/total-government-incentives-japan-could-top-30000-hydrogen-car/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the article:

"With the two main Japanese automakers, Toyota and Honda, leading the charge for hydrogen vehicles (along with Korea's Hyundai), we shouldn't be too surprised that the Japanese government is supporting the technology big time. We knew the national government is ready to kick in the equivalent of $20,000 for a new FCV, but now we learn that at least one prefectural government is ready to chip in another substantial sum: $10,000."

The Stanford announcement serves as a reminder Toyota is one battery breakthrough away from their strategy being totally invalidated.

Of course they'll have a good old time milking the subsidies and gaming carb in the meantime.

LTLFTcomposite said:

The Stanford announcement serves as a reminder Toyota is one battery breakthrough away from their strategy being totally invalidated.

Of course they'll have a good old time milking the subsidies and gaming carb in the meantime.

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How long's it take to go from battery 'breakthrough' to market? Yeah, thought so...

GRA said:

Nicely balanced article at GCR:

"Decoding Toyota's Electric-Car Disdain: A Role For Fuel Cells"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... fuel-cells

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LOL. Balanced my foot- doesn't even hint at massive infrastructure problem of h2.

To provide some context on my perspective for this article, readers may want to know that I've spent almost my entire career on (mainly non-automotive) fuel cells.

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AndyH said:

How long's it take to go from battery 'breakthrough' to market? Yeah, thought so...

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Good point, there's no way anything could overcome the momentum of these hydrogen stations springing up everywhere.

LTLFTcomposite said:

AndyH said:

How long's it take to go from battery 'breakthrough' to market? Yeah, thought so...

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Good point, there's no way anything could overcome the momentum of these hydrogen stations springing up everywhere.

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You didn't get the memo? Hydrogen no longer needs any breakthroughs. End of memo.

TonyWilliams said:

LTLFTcomposite said:

AndyH said:

How long's it take to go from battery 'breakthrough' to market? Yeah, thought so...

Click to expand...

Good point, there's no way anything could overcome the momentum of these hydrogen stations springing up everywhere.

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You didn't get the memo? Hydrogen no longer needs any breakthroughs. End of memo.

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Glad you've caught-up, Tony. Welcome to page 100. :lol:

Actually - only breakthrough needed is that big fat check from congress :lol:

Yep, and it'll be everywhere and free to produce within months! Blink is bringing out their home hydrogen station next week! :lol:

TonyWilliams said:

You didn't get the memo? Hydrogen no longer needs any breakthroughs. End of memo.

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evnow said:

GRA said:

Nicely balanced article at GCR:

"Decoding Toyota's Electric-Car Disdain: A Role For Fuel Cells"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... fuel-cells

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LOL. Balanced my foot- doesn't even hint at massive infrastructure problem of h2.

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Just like there was a massive infrastructure problem with gas stations, but that was solved quite rapidly once the need was there, and we currently (as of 1/1/2014, per the Census Bureau: http://www.statisticbrain.com/gas-station-statistics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) have 121,446 of them in the U.S, down from the peak in the late '60s of around 240,000 IIRR. It remains to be seen whether or not that need develops with H2 or QCs, but with H2 many of the gas stations can be re-used/re-purposed. Until QCs can recharge cars a lot faster, that's a poor option for BEVs.

To provide some context on my perspective for this article, readers may want to know that I've spent almost my entire career on (mainly non-automotive) fuel cells.

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Yes, it's a terrible thing to have an article written by someone who's worked with and/or been a partisan of fuel cells, as opposed to all those other articles written by those who've worked with/are partisans of BEVs.

GRA said:

Just like there was a massive infrastructure problem with gas stations, but that was solved quite rapidly once the need was there ...

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With zero public funds. I'd be happy with that - but put the probability somewhere near zero.

Yes, it's a terrible thing to have an article written by someone who's worked with and/or been a partisan of fuel cells, as opposed to all those other articles written by those who've worked with/are partisans of BEVs.

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It is terrible when he "conveniently" doesn't mention the biggest problem at all.

I don't mind the public money for infrastructure as long as it is balanced 50/50 with EV charging stations.

smkettner said:

I don't mind the public money for infrastructure as long as it is balanced 50/50 with EV charging stations.

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Nope - should be based on sales. If 100x plugins are being sold we need 100x funding for EV charging compared to FCEV.

Could also be partly based on industry funding - say match $ for $ as additional funding.

Actually yes. A $million$ to install one H2 facility and I would be happy with 100 L2 or 20 L3 to match. (or whatever it comes out to)