I am considering buying a Leaf, but am feeling a little nervous about "winter worthiness". I live in western New York, where winters can get pretty ferocious. Although this last winter season was very mild, in a typical winter, we can have up to 80 to 100 inches of snow in a season and stretches of time with temperatures in the single digits and teens (Fahrenheit). My daily commute is short - approximately 10 miles, which will mean on most days, I won't have to worry about range depletion by using heat/preheating/climate control/etc. My question has to deal more with the basic praticalities of day-to-day use in the winter. For example, is snow and ice removal from the windshields easy or not? With my current "ICE" car, on bad winter days, I run the car with the heat blasting high on to the windshield and with the rear defroster on - then in 5 minutes, it's much easier to brush off the snow and scrape off the ice. Have any of you owners out there had the "deep winter experience" - and what is it like getting the car "prepped" (snow and ice removal from the windows) in order to see for safe winter driving? I am considering holding off until the 2013 model comes out, as I think the additional options will smooth out my own anxieties about being able to get through the winters reliably. Of note, I am a physician - and I need to know that I can get to the hospital reliably when I'm on call day or night, including in the winter. So I want to feel confident that if I purchase this car, that it won't impede my duties.
"Winter worthiness"
- Thread starter MattWNY
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TomT
Well-known member
Considering your location, climate and requirements, I believe that I would be inclined to wait for a 2013 with the far more efficient heater...
MattWNY said:
derkraut
Well-known member
+1TomT said:
kubel
Well-known member
The more efficient heat pump is only really useful when it's above 40F. Any colder, and the car will probably still use the resistance heater.
I live in Michigan where average highs are right around freezing for December through February. For me, the new heat pump will be of little use since the majority of the winter is below 40F. I think it mostly benefits people who are in warm weather states that think 50-60F is "cold", and actually turn on the heater then. I don't think I would use the heater above 40F when I have heated seats and a heated steering wheel.
If you have no problem waiting 7 or 8 more months, wait. The 2013 will have quite a few useful improvements and will be built here in the US. If you don't feel like waiting, I don't think the new heat pump will benefit you or I who live in states that get very cold as much as it will benefit people in states that only get chilly.
As far as snow/ice removal- you can set the car to preheat, so it's not too different from having a remote start (or in my case, running out to the car in my bare feet through snow 10 minutes before I leave to start it up and warm it up so I don't spend 5 minutes scraping windows).
I live in Michigan where average highs are right around freezing for December through February. For me, the new heat pump will be of little use since the majority of the winter is below 40F. I think it mostly benefits people who are in warm weather states that think 50-60F is "cold", and actually turn on the heater then. I don't think I would use the heater above 40F when I have heated seats and a heated steering wheel.
If you have no problem waiting 7 or 8 more months, wait. The 2013 will have quite a few useful improvements and will be built here in the US. If you don't feel like waiting, I don't think the new heat pump will benefit you or I who live in states that get very cold as much as it will benefit people in states that only get chilly.
As far as snow/ice removal- you can set the car to preheat, so it's not too different from having a remote start (or in my case, running out to the car in my bare feet through snow 10 minutes before I leave to start it up and warm it up so I don't spend 5 minutes scraping windows).
TomT
Well-known member
I'm not sure that will necessarily be true. There are a number of heat pump designs these days that work well down to 20 or even lower...
kubel said:
GaslessInSeattle
Well-known member
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I really tore my hair out with the 2011 without the CWP trying to find a way to keep warm without eating range, so much so that we traded up to the 2012. The heated seats and steering wheel are invaluable in terms of staying comfortable without compromising range. I can recommend the Leaf for cold whether. It handles quite well in the snow with the low center of gravity. I think your commute will be a piece of cake.
redLEAF
Well-known member
We also had a mild winter in Chicago but have not had any issues during the colder months, it handled getting through moderate snow without any issues ... the only caveat that you did not mention is if you have 'shelter' for your car so it can be shielded from the coldest temps; if it needs to always stay outside all the time you could be in trouble during any extended period where temps are down to close to zero or below --- the batteries won't like it and the car could be become inoperable until the temps warmed up. Leaving it outside during the day while at work would be fine as you'll have reduced range but won't be out long enough to 'freeze' the battery and can charge and pre-warm things just before leaving for work over night at home. I'm originally from upstate NY myself and my sister went to college in Buffalo so can recall the heavy snows -- we always had some very cold days/nights but nothing that lasted for weeks on end. We have a '12 and can attest to how well the heated seats and steering wheel work, you'll still need to run the defrost to clear the windows but they work well --- with such a short commute, you shouldn't have any real issues but again as long as you can keep the car out of the cold overnight while charging you should be fine, I don't see a real advantage to waiting for a '13 in your area other than a few new features versus what you might end up paying more for; can't recall if NYS is offering any incentives on top of the Fed Tax Credit so I would check those out as well first if they go up or happen to expire, etc.
NOTE: if you work out of a hospital with an enclosed parking garage, that would help a bit as well versus an open lot; less exposure to extreme cold the better!
NOTE: if you work out of a hospital with an enclosed parking garage, that would help a bit as well versus an open lot; less exposure to extreme cold the better!
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
sounds like the Leaf will be parked outside. to be honest with ya, pre heat will go along way towards creating a layer of water on the glass which is all u need to slide the ice off. remember, you don t have to melt the ice that is on your car, only the bond of that ice to the glass.
i am willing to bet a preheat of 10 minutes will be sufficient to do the job. now, if in the teens, you might want to make it 15 minutes.
now, i did not have ice and snow to deal with, but i timed the preheat function in temps of 22º F and the car was nice and warm (for me anyway) in only 8 minutes. if you like it warmer, you might allow 12 minutes (by that time i was starting to sweat)
i am willing to bet a preheat of 10 minutes will be sufficient to do the job. now, if in the teens, you might want to make it 15 minutes.
now, i did not have ice and snow to deal with, but i timed the preheat function in temps of 22º F and the car was nice and warm (for me anyway) in only 8 minutes. if you like it warmer, you might allow 12 minutes (by that time i was starting to sweat)
Kwirky
Member
During the only blizzard we had this year in West Texas, I had issues with snow sticking to my headlights; I had to stop and clear them once during my 13 mile commute home. Fortunately we don't have blizzards very often!
If I still lived in Wyoming (where I lived last year), the Leaf as is would not be a viable option for winter use, strictly from an energy standpoint. I don't see how the Leaf's heater could handle negative temperatures well, no matter how much you pre-warmed the car. Months of negative temperatures are common there in winter and you would need to run the heater while driving.
If I were you, I would wait.
If I still lived in Wyoming (where I lived last year), the Leaf as is would not be a viable option for winter use, strictly from an energy standpoint. I don't see how the Leaf's heater could handle negative temperatures well, no matter how much you pre-warmed the car. Months of negative temperatures are common there in winter and you would need to run the heater while driving.
If I were you, I would wait.
lpickup
Well-known member
TomT said:
I didn't read anything in the OP's post that would lead me to make this recommendation. The more efficient heater and 6.6kW charger would be helpful for someone that did a lot more driving, but 10 miles? Who cares if the heater is not as efficient. As he said, range will not be an issue, nor will faster charging, at least on a daily basis.
Granted, the lowest temps I drove in this winter were high 20's, low 30's, but with the heated seats/steering wheel, the 2012's heater was able to keep my feet warm even while in ECO mode (after doing a pre-heat). With only 10 miles of range needed, stick it in D and let the heater run full power!
There may be other reasons to wait for the 2013, but with the stated requirements I don't think the 2012 will have a problem.
jkirkebo
Well-known member
redLEAF said:
This should be no problem at all. I left my Leaf outside in ~0 F temps for several days. It was 3 F when I left and I had one battery temp bar. I then drove 62 miles without any problems.
The 5kW heater will keep the cabin at a nice temperature even in below 0 F temperatures. Of course, range will suffer so plan accordingly. Pre-heating on grid power will of course help.
The battery heater will prevent any problems with a too cold battery.
redLEAF
Well-known member
jkirkebo said:
Somewhat true .... but (from 2012 manual), so in extreme temps they'll need to keep it plugged in:
LI-ION BATTERY HEATER CAUTION
The Li-ion battery heater does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 30% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -4 degrees F (-20 degrees C) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger.
The Li-ion battery heater helps to prevent the Liion battery from freezing and helps to prevent significant reductions in the Li-ion battery output when the temperature is cold. The Li-ion battery
heater automatically turns on when the Li-ion battery temperature is approximately -4 degrees F (-20 degrees C) or colder. The Li-ion battery heater automatically turns off when the Li-ion battery
temperture is approximately 14 degrees F (-10 degrees C) or higher.
The Li-ion battery heater uses electrical power from an external source when a charger is connected to the vehicle.
The Li-ion battery heater uses electrical power from the Li-ion battery when the charger is not connected to the vehicle.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
The part you boldfaced is referring to parking the car in below zero temperatures for an extended period of time (days). If the battery charge is well above 30% it can run the 300W battery heater for a number of hours even without being plugged in. And why would the car not be plugged in while at home in extreme weather?redLEAF said:
jkirkebo has done the experiments: the LEAF works fine in very cold weather, although the range is reduced somewhat.
I agree with this. The 2012 model would work fine for the OP: just put on some good snow tires in winter and have fun. The LEAF ought to suffice for such a short commute unless streets haven't been plowed after a storm; in that case a 4WD or AWD car would be best anyway. The preheating function would be ideal for parking outside in cold snowy weather and it can be set by timer or turned on from a computer or smart phone without even going outside.lpickup said:
lpickup
Well-known member
This is Buffalo guys. I grew up there, and I know if there's anything they do well in Western NY it's plowing the roads! I can't say that about my present locale in which a 2 inch "snowstorm" will paralyze the area for a week.dgpcolorado said:
Hi,
We have a LEAF in Minnesota, so similar weather as upstate NY. LEAF is not a winter car. I would not recommend it as your only car, if that is what you are thinking.
The positives: Traction and safety are no problem, especially with snow tires, which you are probably already used to. Traction control is standard. There has been an upgrade for existing LEAFs for a special "apron" that is supposed to keep snow from building up, this would already be on your car if you bought new. Assuming you have a garage, then you can preheat the car from the grid and that works very well and the car will be nice and toasty when you leave on a cold morning. That feature can be set to automatically start every day, or you can start it from your PC or smart phone at will.
Now for the negatives: the heater is not worth a darn when driving, doesn't keep you warm and would not heat up the car in a ten mile commute, unless you had preheated in your garage, while still plugged in. The factory installed mud flaps are inadequate, so I installed some aftermarket ones to keep the car from being coated with road salt spray, though that is a personal peeve. The biggest negative is range is dramatically affected by cold weather(along with speed and wind)--our experience is about a 25-33% reduction in range due to cold temperature, without using the heater, when temps are in the single (F) digits and this winter we were never at or below zero, so don't know, but I am fairly sure it is linear. You could certainly manage a ten mile (20 mile R/t) commute, but not a lot more.
So in summary, if you have heated garage, don't need to go more than 20 miles r/t, don't mind keeping your coat on during the cold months and you have a back up ICE car (just in case) you should be fine.
We love our car. It is really a leading edge vehicle and runs great but it is not really designed for ultra cold climates.
We have a LEAF in Minnesota, so similar weather as upstate NY. LEAF is not a winter car. I would not recommend it as your only car, if that is what you are thinking.
The positives: Traction and safety are no problem, especially with snow tires, which you are probably already used to. Traction control is standard. There has been an upgrade for existing LEAFs for a special "apron" that is supposed to keep snow from building up, this would already be on your car if you bought new. Assuming you have a garage, then you can preheat the car from the grid and that works very well and the car will be nice and toasty when you leave on a cold morning. That feature can be set to automatically start every day, or you can start it from your PC or smart phone at will.
Now for the negatives: the heater is not worth a darn when driving, doesn't keep you warm and would not heat up the car in a ten mile commute, unless you had preheated in your garage, while still plugged in. The factory installed mud flaps are inadequate, so I installed some aftermarket ones to keep the car from being coated with road salt spray, though that is a personal peeve. The biggest negative is range is dramatically affected by cold weather(along with speed and wind)--our experience is about a 25-33% reduction in range due to cold temperature, without using the heater, when temps are in the single (F) digits and this winter we were never at or below zero, so don't know, but I am fairly sure it is linear. You could certainly manage a ten mile (20 mile R/t) commute, but not a lot more.
So in summary, if you have heated garage, don't need to go more than 20 miles r/t, don't mind keeping your coat on during the cold months and you have a back up ICE car (just in case) you should be fine.
We love our car. It is really a leading edge vehicle and runs great but it is not really designed for ultra cold climates.
Howdy all,
I appreciate everyone's responses. I didn't specify with my original post that I do have a (detached/unheated) garage at home, which will provide shelter from the elements while recharging on the winter nights. That will definitely assist with the prewarming on winter mornings. At my office, parking is in an open parking lot without a place to plug in - so I'm presuming (hoping) that prewarming can also be done even when not plugged in (albeit with some reduction in the range available).
Some conclusions I have drawn:
1) Western New York does do a great job at snow removal, so driving shouldn't be an issue (no worse or better than my current Mitsubishi Eclipse).
2) The 2013 model with improved battery warming will still probably offer a slight advantage for those occasional rare but periodic stretches of single digit and even sometimes -10 to zero (sometimes up to 1 or 2 weeks during winter). I think this will offer me some additional peace of mind
3) The amount of heat available is probably going to work fine with preheating and with heated seats/steering wheel. I already dress warmly on the colder winter days, since my current ICE car barely gets warm on the commute if it hasn't been preheated (the commute is short enough that the heat doesn't get rolling until I've driven at least 10 minutes - by which point I'm already at the office or the hospital).
One additional tidbit hinted at in another string is that the price may be stable (or even drop?) with the 2013 model - all conjecture of course. But overall, I feel waiting until the 2013 model is available is going to make the most sense for me. I test drove one a couple of weekends ago and liked it a lot. So resisting the temptation to buy before the end of the year might take a certain amount of delayed gratification!
Thanks again, everyone, for sharing your experiences/perspectives. Much appreciated!
Regards,
Matt
I appreciate everyone's responses. I didn't specify with my original post that I do have a (detached/unheated) garage at home, which will provide shelter from the elements while recharging on the winter nights. That will definitely assist with the prewarming on winter mornings. At my office, parking is in an open parking lot without a place to plug in - so I'm presuming (hoping) that prewarming can also be done even when not plugged in (albeit with some reduction in the range available).
Some conclusions I have drawn:
1) Western New York does do a great job at snow removal, so driving shouldn't be an issue (no worse or better than my current Mitsubishi Eclipse).
2) The 2013 model with improved battery warming will still probably offer a slight advantage for those occasional rare but periodic stretches of single digit and even sometimes -10 to zero (sometimes up to 1 or 2 weeks during winter). I think this will offer me some additional peace of mind
3) The amount of heat available is probably going to work fine with preheating and with heated seats/steering wheel. I already dress warmly on the colder winter days, since my current ICE car barely gets warm on the commute if it hasn't been preheated (the commute is short enough that the heat doesn't get rolling until I've driven at least 10 minutes - by which point I'm already at the office or the hospital).
One additional tidbit hinted at in another string is that the price may be stable (or even drop?) with the 2013 model - all conjecture of course. But overall, I feel waiting until the 2013 model is available is going to make the most sense for me. I test drove one a couple of weekends ago and liked it a lot. So resisting the temptation to buy before the end of the year might take a certain amount of delayed gratification!
Thanks again, everyone, for sharing your experiences/perspectives. Much appreciated!
Regards,
Matt
garsh
Well-known member
I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, but I believe that "Eco Mode" is going to be a great feature when it comes time to drive in snow. Cars with "touchy" accelerators always want to spin the tires in the snow when starting to move. I had an underpowered 83 Honda Accord which was great in the snow, and I think the Leaf in Eco Mode will drive similarly.
lpickup
Well-known member
MattWNY said: