New member, PNW. Dismayed at local dealer ignorance

As a prospective Leaf owner this is what I see: While the car itself seems well thought out the marketing leaves a lot to be desired, primarily because of the confusing state of the optional chargers.

It seems obvious that all owners will need a home charger capable of a full charge in 8-10 hours, so this should be included in the price of the car rather than being an option that adds up to 10% to the price after the sale. In addition the confusing array of chargers at varying costs and availability is disheartening to contemplate, esp since some of the installation quotes seem arbitrary or outright ripoffs. This can't be good for expanding sales.

Is there a primer somewhere that explains exactly what the EVSE does? If I have a 240VAC outlet on a 40A breaker - why do I need anything more than the cable and plug? Its like buying an IC car and then finding out you have to build your own gas station.

My local dealer couldn't explain any of this, except to say I could expect to pay "up to" $2500 for a Nissan approved charger installation. This car is so different from conventional that I think it requires a proactive educational outreach effort (without any hidden or highly variable extra charges), not just plunking it on the showroom floor.

etrans said:

It seems obvious that all owners will need a home charger capable of a full charge in 8-10 hours, so this should be included in the price of the car rather than being an option that adds up to 10% to the price after the sale.

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My car usually charges in 1-2 hours, not 8-10, since I usually drive 20-25 miles per day. A number of drivers who don't drive too far are happy using just the included L1 EVSE. Although L1 would suffice for me most of the time, I still wouldn't be without my L2 EVSE for those times when I do need more charge faster. Those people who don't need L2 wouldn't be happy if an L2 EVSE were bundled into the base price of the car.

In addition the confusing array of chargers at varying costs and availability is disheartening to contemplate, esp since some of the installation quotes seem arbitrary or outright ripoffs. This can't be good for expanding sales.

Is there a primer somewhere that explains exactly what the EVSE does?

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Yes, the wiki of this forum: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery,_Charging_System#Charging_System Among other EVSE vendors you may want to take a look at http://evseupgrade.com/ who will modify your Nissan L1 EVSE to use either 120 or 240 so you can plug it into a dryer plug, or at an RV park.

My local dealer couldn't explain any of this, except to say I could expect to pay "up to" $2500 for a Nissan approved charger installation. This car is so different from conventional that I think it requires a proactive educational outreach effort (without any hidden or highly variable extra charges), not just plunking it on the showroom floor.

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I guess you're still kind of in the "early adopter" phase, in that you may keep reading here and soon know a lot more about the Leaf than your local Leaf dealer. With time they'll come along: my dealer sales people drive Leafs themselves and know plenty.

etrans said:

In addition the confusing array of chargers at varying costs and availability is disheartening to contemplate, esp since some of the installation quotes seem arbitrary or outright ripoffs. This can't be good for expanding sales.

Is there a primer somewhere that explains exactly what the EVSE does?

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Your comment about the installation quotes is exactly why the cost of the EVSE should not be included in the price of the car

If you've already got a 240 volt outlet you can easily get a Level2 EVSE for under $1000. I'm sure reading the above links you'll see the purpose of the EVSE. As you've found out Nissan is going to recommend just a few EVSEs but as you'll find out there are a lot of very good choices now. IMO a standard EVSE install shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars + the cost of the EVSE. There's nothing new or fancy about them.

Also check out the local FaceBook group for more info and another place to ask questions. https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, don't let the EVSE issues be a road block. I think once you've had a chance to review the information about them you'll get over this issue and realize how neat it is that you can fill up your car with your own cheap electricity

By the way, an EVSE is not a "charger". It's just a fancy switch with some safety checks. The charger does come with the car -- it's inside that hump between the back seat and the hatchback storage area. As walterbays said, you don't really have to have any EVSE other than the 120v one that will be provided with the car. Using that you can get up to maybe 50 miles a day out of the car. But I'm glad I got the evseupgrade. For under $300 (if you already have an unused 240v outlet) you can charge from empty to full overnight.

Ray

Yes, PNW is at the sweet spot for EVSE install costs. My EVSE install was fora house with a full 100 Amp panel and an electrical service that would only support upgrade to a 125 Amp service. If I had not needed to upgrade the panel and electrical feed to install my new PV system, this would have been prohibitively expensive.

We had to pay our electrician to dig a trench and install 3" PVC conduit through our yard, under a wall, then Through a neighbor's yard, and to chop up the stucco on our house to install a new 200 amp main panel and new copper grounding rods. That whole process came to around $5,000, including the $1,040 that was directly attributable to the EVSE and its dedicated wiring and permit fees.

The dealer doesn't know and is not involved in this type of business.

I actually think a better model than the car dealership model would be a store that sold and serviced multiple brands of EV's including motorcycles and also sold and installed solar power systems. But we are not going tonget there overnight.

Well, at this point there are good dealers and bad dealers. Some dealers have invested the time to really educate themselves on the LEAF's technology, although I suspect they will usually stick with the Nissan "party line" which involves going through Aerovironment for the EVSE. Unfortunately that's definitely an over-priced solution, but in their defense it is one-stop shopping that some people want; it can be bundled into the purchase price of the car (which it sounds like you want, although I'm not sure why); and doesn't require car salespeople to be trained in all the variations in EVSE options out there (which would be kind of similar to having the salespeople be knowledgeable in all kinds of aftermarket options for their cars).

The mediocre dealers probably sent one guy to a training class to learn the basics of the LEAF and who knows if they paid attention.

And I suspect there are bad dealers out there they see the LEAF as a threat (perhaps because it will mean fewer trips to the service department).

You have to be careful with the mediocre and bad dealers out there because they sometimes spread misinformation as well as Fox News (maybe not intentionally).

Hopefully that will change over time as the real facts are repeated over and over. And hopefully AV will get more competitive as competition heats up. Yes, unfortunately as simple as an EVSE is, there is still a very small market out there right now so prices remain high.

I will say that the LEAF sales process is more involved than just talking to the dealer. There is plenty of information available online throughout the ordering process. Some good, some bad. The biggest shortcoming I see though is that potential owners will not know all the EVSE options open to them. Educating the public on that one is going to have to be a grass roots effort for now because Nissan has very little stake in providing information on other options (see above) and the market is still small enough that it probably does not make sense for competitive EVSE manufacturers to have extensive marketing campaigns to reach 20K people nationwide (hopefully a few more this year). I bought into the line that I was simply required to get the EVSE that Nissan was pitching and didn't really find out until my car was almost here, and I found this forum, that there were a plethora of other options. Fortunately my utility had a program whereby they paid for my EVSE so I didn't have to pay the exorbitant AV price, but you are right: most people will be turned off by the additional SIGNIFICANT cost of the EVSE. In fact, I'm surprised that that isn't raised as an issue by the naysayers more.

etrans said:

It seems obvious that all owners will need a home charger capable of a full charge in 8-10 hours, so this should be included in the price of the car rather than being an option that adds up to 10% to the price after the sale. In addition the confusing array of chargers at varying costs and availability is disheartening to contemplate, esp since some of the installation quotes seem arbitrary or outright ripoffs. This can't be good for expanding sales.

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I will agree and disagree here. Many people are using the included L1 with no problems. I also used it for a while when I got the car. My main incentive to bite the bullet and get the L2 unit was out of sheer convenience. It got very annoying bundling the EVSE back up in the car's hatch every morning and unwinding it back out each evening. Of course, at first I was too scared to drive anywhere without having a way to charge in an emergency. I guess in retrospect it isn't that big of a deal since I've never had such an emergency after 1 year of driving.

However.. I agree that Nissan should include a 240V capable portable unit with the car, instead of the current 120V-only unit. Keep in mind that in Europe, where all homes work on 240V anyway, that is exactly what they do. Most of them have no need to buy a separate unit. Also people who drive a Chevy Volt or Prius Plugin have no need of a separate unit. The one that comes with the car is fine because they can always fall back to gas if needed, plus their batteries are smaller and take less time to charge.

My local dealer couldn't explain any of this, except to say I could expect to pay "up to" $2500 for a Nissan approved charger installation.

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That is just the standard answer. I actually bought the Nissan unit directly from Aerovironment myself and had it shipped to me. I think I paid a little over $800 and installed it myself. Add to the cost some thick wire and a new 240V breaker and I think the cost was right at $1,000. But I did all of the labor.

Phil's L2 upgrade for the factory EVSE is a great deal, whether you plan to use it at home or not. Due to issues with my Schneider unit, I'm finding the upgraded EVSE to be 100% sufficient for my charging needs, with the only downside being the having to remember to put it in the trunk in case of emergency. But, I'm usually in too much of a hurry to leave, so I rarely have done so, and I REALLY could have used it yesterday to opportunity charge at a friend's house with a 240 outlet. So, yes, the ideal situation is to have an L2 EVSE in the garage at home, and a modified factory L2 EVSE in the trunk, but just getting your EVSE upgraded for now will give you time to find a great deal on an electrician and an aftermarket EVSE. I do have to add my recommendation to stay away from the Schneider unit for now, until we see how they handle the false ground fault issue I am having.

I used the "included" Nissan L1 EVSE for almost the first 2 months.

Then I ordered an Upgraded "Mod-L1" EVSE.
When it arrived, I started doing 12 amp 240v (weak-L2) charging,
which I am still using today.

Once the Mod-L1 was working well, I sent my
original Nissan L1 EVSE in for the same upgrade.

The 2nd "Mod-L1" now remains in the car, while the first
remains in the garage.
No more of the inconvenient "in-and-out" required.

My next step ...
(as soon as I can check my circuit breakers and wiring)
is to send one of these "Mod-L1" EVSEs back in for the "Rev2"
(16 amp Control Pilot signal) upgrade, so the LEAF
will charge a bit (about 33%) faster.

OP; i for one would have been VERY upset if forced to buy a charger from Nissan at $2,000+. i knew from day one, that charger prices were something i would never pay and i did not. i got Phils mod for a few hundred. spent another $60 to install metering equipment and i have a home charging solution that takes no more than 8 hours to recharge.

options are a good thing. the more we have, the better we are. as far as me; i pretty much did what Gary (along with several dozen others)

for some suggestions; http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=92" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

etrans said:

As a prospective Leaf owner this is what I see: While the car itself seems well thought out the marketing leaves a lot to be desired, primarily because of the confusing state of the optional chargers.

It seems obvious that all owners will need a home charger capable of a full charge in 8-10 hours, so this should be included in the price of the car rather than being an option that adds up to 10% to the price after the sale. In addition the confusing array of chargers at varying costs and availability is disheartening to contemplate, esp since some of the installation quotes seem arbitrary or outright ripoffs. This can't be good for expanding sales.

Is there a primer somewhere that explains exactly what the EVSE does? If I have a 240VAC outlet on a 40A breaker - why do I need anything more than the cable and plug? Its like buying an IC car and then finding out you have to build your own gas station.

My local dealer couldn't explain any of this, except to say I could expect to pay "up to" $2500 for a Nissan approved charger installation. This car is so different from conventional that I think it requires a proactive educational outreach effort (without any hidden or highly variable extra charges), not just plunking it on the showroom floor.

Click to expand...

If you're located in the Portland, Oregon area, the Oregon Electric Vehicle Association could definitely provide any assistance or information on EVSE charging equipment. We have monthly meetings in downtown Portland on the 2nd Thursday of every month. More info at http://oeva.org/.

Part of your Mission, should you choose to accept it,
is to gently offer to educate a willing Dealer.

For those that do not want to learn (eagerly), it might
be better to move on to more fertile pastures.

etrans said:

If I have a 240VAC outlet on a 40A breaker - why do I need anything more than the cable and plug? Its like buying an IC car and then finding out you have to build your own gas station.

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Just go to the Home Depot or Lowes web site and buy your own charge station and install it yourself. I bought the GE Wattstation and it works great. There are several brands to choose from and they are all about the same.

Most of these can plug right into your existing outlet no problem.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203001939/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=Electric+Car&storeId=10051" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aeolus said:

Yes, PNW is at the sweet spot for EVSE install costs. My EVSE install was fora house with a full 100 Amp panel and an electrical service that would only support upgrade to a 125 Amp service. If I had not needed to upgrade the panel and electrical feed to install my new PV system, this would have been prohibitively expensive.

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Why did you end up upgrading your service? I was in the same exact position but I just put in a 200 amp panel with a 125 amp main breaker and didn't upgrade my service. I wonder what size your service wires were. My were rather small but the utility didn't have any problem with my upgrading to 200 amp using the existing wires. I would have just needed to upgrade the wires from the panel to the meter box and install a new meter box. It was easier to just install 125 amp main breaker In any case it would be pretty difficult for me to ever draw 125 amp even with everything on and then PV doesn't increase your demand on the service lines.

Just to clarify my OP: I was a little exasperated with the salesman and also hadn't done my homework. I retract the part about how its like having to build you own gas station - not quite that bad . But I still feel that this is poor marketing and an unnecessary complication. I am an EV proponent and want to see EVs succeed as fast as possible.

So now I've researched this and talked with a local owner who installed his own EVSE. Of course part of the confusion factor is calling the EVSE the "charger" when in fact that is built in to the car. Which leads me to ask what exactly is inside these $800+ units, besides 2 plug and cable sets, a couple of LEDs and maybe a disconnect/breaker. I am an electrician myself so naturally will do my own wiring anyway, I just hate to see extra expense for prospective owners.

etrans said:

Which leads me to ask what exactly is inside these $800+ units, besides 2 plug and cable sets, a couple of LEDs and maybe a disconnect/breaker.

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Yep, that's about it (plus a contactor and a couple of electronics): https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/

DarkStar said:

etrans said:

Which leads me to ask what exactly is inside these $800+ units, besides 2 plug and cable sets, a couple of LEDs and maybe a disconnect/breaker.

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Yep, that's about it (plus a contactor and a couple of electronics): https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/

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And GFCI, a large percent of the cost is the in the J1772 cord set too.

Just send the included 120 volt EVSE to Ingineer for the upgrade and you can charge using 120 to 240 volt without having to do too much wiring/circuit upgrades. A quick 220 adapter is around $255 with the adapter cords and utilizes two separate 120 volt circuits to create a 240 volt source. With the Level 1 upgrade (12 amp rating) and the quick 220, you can charge a LEAF from turtle to 100% in about 9 hours, plus you can take it with you and charge at all your friends homes for free .

One more thought on marketing and the EVSE cost penalty: A compensating value added feature would have been to include a 120V/15A output in the trunk. I found the "POWER YOUR FRIDGE AND A FEW LIGHTS" thread - this makes total sense. Having a 21KWHR power supply in the garage during a power failure is very attractive, not to power the whole house obviously, just the equivalent of a 1kw generator without the noise and fumes. (How many dozen people are killed every year running gas generators in their basements and garages?) No transfer switch, just a separate extension cord into the house for such emergencies.

When the power comes back the car recharges and away we go!

The capability to run a few lights, TV, computer, microwave (1 minute uses 1/60th of a KWHR) etc for a day or more would be a real value item. I would also appreciate having 120VAC on demand away from the house for tailgate parties, camping, running an electric string trimmer or chain saw along the driveway, etc. This would be a real value added consideration and compensate for some of the EVSE expense and hassle.

The irony is that in Europe where the only have 220v the portable EVSE that comes with the car already has this capacity. That is probably why most of the components in the USA EVSE is so easily upgraded. I recently moved and used the 120 v EVSE and it worked fine for my daily commute. If I hadn't gotten mine as part of the EV project this would have been sufficient.