Is this trip do-able?

I occasionally drive between Long Island and Albany, NY to visit friends. I know that the Leaf won't make it on a single charge, and probably wouldn't make it on the Thruway at the speed limit, even after a stop-over for a charge (this is assuming that L2 or L3 chargers are eventually constructed at the Thruway rest stops). I mapped out the shortest distance on Mapquest, with a stop at a Nissan dealer that happens to be conveniently located approx. halfway between the start and finish.

http://mapq.st/pREGbs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the reading I've done on this forum, it seems like this trip will be a huge stretch. I usually do this trip in the winter, so I'll probably have the heat going, and there is definitely some increase in elevation through the Catskill Mountains (which I don't think are anywhere near as high as what you guys deal with out West...) Obviously, I'm assuming that the dealer in Poughkeepsie will even allow me to charge, and I am assuming that I would even want to hang out at their dealership for however long I would need to.

From looking at the roads and the directions, I figured out the following. I would travel about 3 miles of the trip at under 40mph, most of the trip (about 123 miles) at speeds of about 50mph, another 23 miles at 60mph, and 6 miles at speeds of 70mph. Before stopping in Poughkeepsie, I would have gone 2 miles at under 40mph, 44 miles at roughly 50mph, 24 miles at 60mph, and all 6 miles of interstate driving at 70mph, for a total distance of about 78 miles. Assuming I had charged to a full battery before leaving, is there a way to tell how much charge I would presumably have left? I tried doing this using the range chart that I found on this forum, and it looks like I would have used about 17.55kWh for the trip to Poughkeepsie using this route, leaving me with 6.45kWh in the battery. If my math is correct, this would leave me at about the very end of the third fuel bar., or roughly 29 more miles at 50mph. Of course, this is from the chart, which assumes nice weather and no heater/AC. It also doesn't take into account the elevation, which I'm not even sure how to measure/figure out.

So, enough rambling from me. My questions to you guys...can I make this trip with this planned route? Should I be looking at another planned route? Assuming I make it to Poughkeepsie Nissan, how long should I expect to wait there to recharge so that I can make it all the way to Albany? How long will this entire trip take me? I did the trip down from Albany to LI today and, with traffic, it took me four hours (this is in my ICE car, of course....my LEAF won't be here until who knows when!) Will there ever be a level 3 charger in NY State?

Thanks for reading...

NYLEAF said:

3 miles at under 40mph
123 miles at about 50mph
23 miles at 60mph
6 miles at speeds of 70mph
2 miles at under 40mph before stopping in Poughkeepsie
44 miles at roughly 50mph
24 miles at 60mph
6 miles of interstate driving at 70mph,
for a total distance of about 78 miles.

Click to expand...

Dude, this don't add up. I get 164 miles for the trip, 79.4 miles for the first leg to Poughkeepsie, and 84.8 miles for the last leg. Please correct the mileages and speeds.

While you don't have any elevation issues to worry about (it only varies from sea level to less than 700 feet), there is significant up and down.

It will be a looooong day with just L2. I think you will need a solid 5 to 7 hours charging to 100% at the midpoint. I would limit your speed to 60 maybe even 50 to arrive faster (less charging). If you could go in the evening and get a room for the night to charge while you sleep and continue the next morning would seem workable. But you still need L2. Even as you arrive you will need more hours to charge before you do much. I would not count on L3 for a year or more, maybe lots more. These long trips will be challenging for some time.

It would be nice if you could load Leaf onto the train for a reasonable rate. Then you arrive with a decent charge left and get on with your day.

It's nice to have another New Yorker on the forum. I was raised in upstate New York, several miles from Lake Ontario (partly explains why I prefer the weather up here at 6100' elevation in SoCal). Yes, it would be great to see L3 chargers at the Thruway rest stops! When I was a kid, the Thruway speed limit was 55 mph, which would have been helpful for the LEAF.

With careful driving, I think your proposed trip could work out just fine in warm weather. If you're doing it during the winter, I think you'll need to identify additional places to charge along the way, perhaps other Nissan dealers.

A few weeks ago, I drove the LEAF 172 miles in one day, a round trip from home at 6100' to the downtown Los Angeles area. I took my laptop computer and used my (long) charging stops as productively as possible. It helped that I was able to average above 5 miles per kWh. Sure, I could have taken a different car, but that would not have been as interesting.

Sorry, I didn't accurately do the miles when I first posted. Here's a detailed spreadsheet that I created. It lists the speeds I assume I'll be traveling, and the distances that I will be traveling them for. I have it broken up into two sections, the first to Poughkeepsie, and the second from Poughkeepsie to Albany. Poughkeepsie to Albany is actually a few miles longer, but uses less energy because I'll be going slower. (Not that that should surprise anyone who reads this forum...)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiSAy22m8bFJdFQtOXFUWEVNcnB2T3BXdm9SdElhanc&hl=en_US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, basically, I need to hope (pray?) that someone installs an L3 charger in Poughkeepsie, and then I might have a chance of doing this trip in a somewhat reasonable time-frame? In an ICE, I've regularly done this trip in under 3 hours using the NYS Thruway (doing about 80mph).

6 @ 35mph / 6.3mkWh = 0.95kWh
1 @ 45mph / 5.2mkWh = 0.19kWh
37 @ 55mph / 4.3mkWh = 8.61kWh
29 @ 65mph / 3.6mkWh = 8.06kWh
6 @ 75mph / 3.0mkWh = 2.00kWh

79 miles total divided by 19.81kWh total used = 4 miles/kWh average

94% of 21kWh useable burned, without any corrections for:

1. Cold temperatures
2. Heater use
3. Snow or slush on road
4. Heavy passenger load
5. I wouldn't put much weight on elevation calculations on this route, except you're pushing the limits

*******Charge for 7 hours at the Nissan dealer*******

1 @ 35mph / 6.3mkWh = 0.16kWh
2 @ 45mph / 5.2mkWh = 0.39kWh
80 @ 55mph / 4.3mkWh = 18.61kWh

83 miles total divided by 19.16kWh total used = 4.33 miles/kWh average

91% of 21kWh useable burned

Howdy from another New Yorker. I grew up on Long Island and went to college at SUNY Albany so I know that trip very well. It's probably not going to be realistic until we see L3 chargers on the Thruway. I wonder if it would make sense to stop several times at L2 chargers instead of just once. For example, if you come over the GW and through NJ on Rt. 17, you'll find a station in Paramus. That's 36 miles from your start. Then there's a Nissan dealer in Middletown, not too far from the Thruway, 40 or so miles from Paramus. I didn't look at all the charging options, and obviously, you'd be waiting a very long time in total.

It's been a frustrating wait for the Leaf here. However, I am seeing more L2 charging stations coming on line: my town (in Orange County) now has two, so hopefully by the time we actually get our cars there will be some sort of infrastructure in place.

Some Suggestions and Thoughts:

Sounds like the first step is to see if 7 hours of L2 charging will actually be possible at the "halfway" point.

Then, limit all driving to 60 mph or less. The hills will eat energy.

Locate some Plan-B charging about 15 to 20 miles short of each location.

Much heater use could "eat" maybe 20% of your mileage, so bundle up.

Breaking the trip into 3 sections makes it easier to do, and does not increase the total charging time very much. However, the risks are reduced.

Consider passenger comfort, if not traveling alone.

TonyWilliams said:

6 @ 35mph / 6.3mkWh = 0.95kWh
1 @ 45mph / 5.2mkWh = 0.19kWh

Click to expand...

Let me add that if these are stop and go miles, and you're "averaging" 35mph, or 45mph, the miles per kWh will be substantially less, particularly from 100% charge (no regeneration).

The fuel burn rates of 6.3 and 5.2 are for steady driving; not stop and go.

dtomko said:

Howdy from another New Yorker. I grew up on Long Island and went to college at SUNY Albany so I know that trip very well. It's probably not going to be realistic until we see L3 chargers on the Thruway. I wonder if it would make sense to stop several times at L2 chargers instead of just once. For example, if you come over the GW and through NJ on Rt. 17, you'll find a station in Paramus. That's 36 miles from your start. Then there's a Nissan dealer in Middletown, not too far from the Thruway, 40 or so miles from Paramus. I didn't look at all the charging options, and obviously, you'd be waiting a very long time in total.

It's been a frustrating wait for the Leaf here. However, I am seeing more L2 charging stations coming on line: my town (in Orange County) now has two, so hopefully by the time we actually get our cars there will be some sort of infrastructure in place.

Click to expand...

I'm also a SUNY Albany graduate, hence the friends in Albany that I visit. I've been doing this drive for 6 years now, so it's my #1 concern with getting a Leaf. Worst case, I do have a backup ICE car that I'll have no issue using. There's also Amtrak, or the Bus (free Wifi!). But I'd love to attempt the trip in the Leaf.

Explain to me how the hills affect the trip...I'm guessing it's that more power is needed on the uphill, regen on the downhill, but not as much gained as the energy used on the uphill? So, lots of uphill and downhill means reduced range overall?

As for the stop & go, I was under the impression that stop & go was actually better for range than highway travel, because of the regen. I guess not? At the 35mph and 45mph marks, I put those down as basically my "max" speed, or my cruising speed for those sections of the trip. Assuming I don't hit red lights and traffic, I would only be going slower than that when I start the car from a stopped position, as in, leaving my driveway.

Thanks for all the help...now if only I could decide on a color.

NYLEAF said:

Explain to me how the hills affect the trip...I'm guessing it's that more power is needed on the uphill, regen on the downhill, but not as much gained as the energy used on the uphill? So, lots of uphill and downhill means reduced range overall?

Click to expand...

That's pretty much it. Air resistance is related to speed, and hills are "extra" regardless of speed - you have to lift the mass of the car - and regen is inherently inefficient due to losses moving the energy to and from the battery, so whenever you do the lifting, you can't get all of it (the energy) back by descending.

As for the stop & go, I was under the impression that stop & go was actually better for range than highway travel, because of the regen.

Click to expand...

I think it's more correct to say that lower speed travel is better for range, and there is a correlation between stop&go traffic and lower speeds, and the benefit of going slower (not battling exponential air resistance) is greater than the cost of the stopping(/regen) and going. You'd get the best range at some modest very steady speed on level ground. Regen is not magical.

If you're driving 35 mph steady, you'll get about 6.3 miles per kWh. All the way down to about 12 mph steady speed, the efficiency is greater and greater.

But, stop and go; we have no idea how many stops, how long you'll sit, how fast you'll accelerate, how hard you will brake, etc. All those are factors in determining the miles per kWh, therefore the best you can do is guess. A good guess might be half the miles/kWh of the steady state speed until you can get a feel for how you drive the car in those situations, and what you're efficiency might be.

You guessed right on regen. It is simple physics that you will not get back the same energy that you used to get to a certain speed. What that efficiency ratio is is not exactly clear. My rule of thumb is 50%, some think it is as high as 80%.

Maybe use 65%? So much of that is dependent on your friction brake use, that is difficult for a new LEAF owner to judge.

Have you seen the range chart at the top link in my signature line?

Yes, I used that range chart to create my spreadsheet with the kWh I expected to use for the trip. I also set up my spreadsheet so that I can change the temperature that I expect it will be outside and it will automatically change the projected kWh based on what that range chart says (1% decrease for every 2F below 70, 1% decrease for every 4F above 70). If I did it correctly...I wouldn't make it on a day that's colder than 55F.

NYLEAF said:

1% decrease for every 4F above 70). If I did it correctly...I wouldn't make it on a day that's colder than 55F.

Click to expand...

Awesome planning.... But, it appears there is not a loss of efficiency above 70F. The loss is battery life; therefore, just cross that comment off your range chart!! The next revision will, of course, include that change.

Awesome! Great job with the chart...I'll definitely be keeping one in my car whenever I get it.

I'm really hoping to see some L3 chargers in NY within the next 6 months or so. Would it be extremely stupid/bad to charge the car from L3 twice in one day, four times in a weekend? From this discussion, it seems like I'd need to probably find two stop over points to charge, and since I don't want to wait around for 7 hours each time, I'd obviously want to do L3. So, two times on the trip up, two times on the trip back. If I went at normal highway speeds, it should only add about an hour or so to my trip (assuming 30 minutes for each L3 stop). I'm leasing the car, so I don't really care about what I do to the battery...I'm not keeping it after 3 years. By that point, I'll want whatever fancy new electric car they have on the market. I just hope they don't charge us a penalty for turning in a car with a degraded battery at the end of the lease!

NYLEAF said:

, I'd obviously want to do L3. So, two times on the trip up, two times on the trip back. If I went at normal highway speeds, it should only add about an hour or so to my trip (assuming 30 minutes for each L3 stop).

Click to expand...

You'll get 80% charge in 30 minutes, and about 30 more minutes for the last 20%. Better to have two L3 charges to 80% each way for minimum time. Also, you can drive much faster, since you're not pushing the range.

I know the manual says not to do this, though. Am I going to start a fire or void a warranty or something? Or will the Nissan Gods just look down on me for being impatient?

I would not worry about multiple L3 unless the battery temp approches the red zone. On a cool day you are probably fine. Be cautious in the middle of a heat wave.
But multiple L3 stations installed within a year.... not likely.

On L2 you may need 8 hours charging split between the stops not 8 hours at every stop.

Regarding the two Quick Charges to reach your destination, that doesn't seem like a problem to me. It's not as if you'll be doing that every day.
The only time I'd personally hesitate to do more than one Quick Charge per day would be in hot weather, since fast charging will raise the battery temperature. However, in cold weather, the battery warming incidental to fast charging should work to your advantage and improve your range.

Just noticed smkettner's post. We're saying essentially the same thing.

As to warranty, leaving the car for extended periods with 100% charge is prohibited.