Cannot charge to 100%

I recently acquired a 2011 SL with a new-ish (25K miles) "lizard pack" battery, and am a bit underwhelmed by its performance.
One problem is that it never wants to charge to 100%, even with the timer set to do so. This is with either L2 or quick charge.
Best it has managed was one L2 time to just over 92% (via LeafSpy). SOH currently shows as just under 87%.
Anybody know what might be going on here, please? I'm in Southern California--temperate weather.

'11 and '12 Leaf didn't have a a % Soc display. Leaf leaves some capacity at the top and bottom user inaccessible. I doubt you will ever see Leaf Spy SoC at 100% on any gen 1 Leaf.

If you charge to full (no timers or no 80% limiter) until the car stops and there are 12 fuel bars, it's done. That's as full as it'll get.

Out of curiosity, how many gids on a full charge? (I'm guessing 240ish to 250ish.)

Thanks very much for that.
So are you saying that Leafspy is not correct showing that it's, say, only 92% charged, or that it's not possible to actually charge to a full 100%?
That would seem like an unnecessary handicap if it's the latter. I'm estimating I have a maximum range at moderate highway speed of maybe 60 miles.
If I'm reading LS correctly, I currently have a capability of 139 GIDs, with AHr=55.35, SOH 86.765, and Hx 77.90% at a SOC of 91.4%.
The SOH was just over 90% less than 500 miles ago.

Do you mean 239 gids?

SOH readings will tend to vary, but if if continues on a downward trend, it’s possible the car was reset and it could take weeks or months for the car to re-learn the battery.

The unusable capacity at the top and bottom is shared by many EVs, in order to protect the battery and ensure some degree of longevity. For some vehicles (e.g. gen 1 Volt), their not-user-accessible ranges (at top and bottom) are very large.

Leaf Spy is reporting what the car is reporting via whatever Turbo3 (author of Leaf Spy) has chosen to render. Nissan has never released any public documentation on these values nor acknowledged them. It's possible that value has unknown caveats or is actually incorrect.

FWIW, my non-lizard battery (car built 5/2013) at last check had these stats:
AHr: 54.83
SOH: 83.38% (this has mostly been varying between 82.xx and 83.xx% for many month but has semi-recently gotten has high as 84.xx%)
Hx: 77.84%
odo: 63,665 miles

Oh, my bad, yes I meant TWO-39 GIDs!
That's followed by "(85.1%)", whatever that means--percentage of original capacity perhaps?
The SOH actually hit a low of 85.15 a couple hundred miles back.

I see that you, too, have a bit of disparity between your SOH and Hx, if that's of significance...

Thanks again!
- Sander

sander99 said:

Thanks very much for that.
So are you saying that Leafspy is not correct showing that it's, say, only 92% charged, or that it's not possible to actually charge to a full 100%?
That would seem like an unnecessary handicap if it's the latter. I'm estimating I have a maximum range at moderate highway speed of maybe 60 miles.

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It's important to keep in mind that when dealing with rechargeable batteries, "FULL" is an arbitrary construct. You could keep pumping electricity into the battery until it bursts into flames and consider that "full", but that's not very useful. Below that level there are tradeoffs between amount of power stored and longevity of the battery. So Nissan picked a level which which met their choice of compromises. They have defined "full" which is not absolutely "full", and also an "empty" which is not truly "empty".

LeafSpy is reading "GIDs" from the vehicle. Keep in mind we really don't know what GIDs are. It is a number identified in the data traffic that appears to be used internally to represent state of charge. But again, they represent some arbitrary definition of Nissan's interpretation of the relationship between sensor readings and the battery's energy level. And that relationship, in itself, is also a guess!

A Lithium Ion battery is not a "tank" where one can measure the exact quantity of "fuel" inside. One doesn't really know exactly what is happening inside the battery. They make educated guesses based on voltage and measuring the power that goes into and out of the battery, accounting for aging.

In short, LeafSpy is making a best guess using a data element that we don't fully understand, that represents a guess by Nissan, that they use to control a charge algorithm that is proprietary. Don't worry too much about that 92% reading.

Well, thank you for the murky clarification!
I guess I'm trying to estimate what my range might actually be, given that the battery is SUPPOSED to be pretty robust, and only has around 25K miles on it.
I was hoping to drive from San Diego to the Palm Desert area, but given that this would involve a stretch of 60 miles from quick charge to next station, I'm a bit reluctant.
I'm afraid we might have to drive our "smoker" instead!
But, again, thank you for the lesson!

Well, thank you for the murky clarification!

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Here is a very simple clarification: No lithium batteries with controllers are ever charged to their maximum capacity, because it's both dangerous and hard on the battery. Consider your car "full" when it shuts off while connected to the charging cable or station after showing three unblinking dashboard charging indicator lights with no charge limit set. Period.

sander99 said:

Well, thank you for the murky clarification!
I guess I'm trying to estimate what my range might actually be, given that the battery is SUPPOSED to be pretty robust, and only has around 25K miles on it.
I was hoping to drive from San Diego to the Palm Desert area, but given that this would involve a stretch of 60 miles from quick charge to next station, I'm a bit reluctant.
I'm afraid we might have to drive our "smoker" instead!
But, again, thank you for the lesson!

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Lol, I was actually trying to relieve your anxiety. :lol:

When pushing the limits it's best to arrive at your estimates by actual experience. Do a mileage run in your local area on similar roads and speeds. By staying close to home you can push into lower state of charge with less worry. Don't forget elevation and weather are factors. You don't have to run to empty, but as low as you comfortably can while assuring a return home. Then you can get a fair idea of how many GIDs per mile you can count on. Find Tony William's range charts here on the forum to get an idea of things like elevation changes can affect your energy consumption.

Remember on the long trip, you can always extend your range by slowing down. It's the single most effective way of increasing range. Keep tabs on your consumption as you go along and if you're falling below your plan, reduce speed for greater efficiency. I find it most comfortable to drive very conservatively for the first portion of the trip and then if I find I have a big margin of safety, I can "splurge" later on. On the 95% of driving that is local, of course, I don't really have to think about any of this.

I know it sounds daunting and murky when you first begin with a short-range EV, but you learn these skills fairly quickly. I have never run out of charge and have take trips up to 1200 miles on Gen1 LEAF.

For instance: lithium ion batteries have been historically considered 'full' at 4.2v. Cellphones have been using that standard for years. A few years back some manufacturers started making 4.35v 'full'. Maybe they tweaked the chemistry a bit. Personally I suspect they just moved the full line up a little to get more charge in a limited space. :shock: :roll:
There's a trade-off. The more time lithium spends at full charge, the more it deteriorates. So, if they are allowing overcharge, the battery is going to be hammered even more. I try to not charge my car or my cellphone over 80% unless it's going to be put to immediate use.

Yes my '12 never charges to 100% either, I think it generally tops out at 90%, no matter how long I leave it on the charger. Of course neither does my '13, it generally charges to about 96% using Leafspy but note it shows 100% on the dash so I believe the dash is doing a bit of rounding, possibly to make people feel better??
How many health bars do you have? If 11 or 12 I personally wouldn't have a problem going 65-70 miles without heat use, especially in the summer and trying to not go much over 65 mph(and preferably without a stronger headwind). Of course I wouldn't suggest it if your new to the car and don't know it's ability but again with mine I wouldn't have a problem but I'd really keep an eye on the SOC%(ignore the worthless GOM) and if you've used more than 1/2 your initial charge % and your not halfway.......well I'd really slow down or look for a semi to draft behind, it really helps, well unless they are going 80MPH

My health bar is still at 12 (that's supposed to include the red ones at the bottom, right?).
I know the GOM is pretty wacked, so I was hoping that Leafspy would give me a realistic picture of the batteries' state, but it sounds as though even that is a bit approximate/mysterious/nebulous/paradoxical/quixotic...

I suppose that, as suggested, I'll just have to get a sense of the car's (range) possibilities as I drive it around. I'm just not (yet) willing to take a chance on a trip with >50 miles between chargers. Too bad, really since I just LOVE driving it around town while feeling "guilt-free"! OTOH, it IS cutting into my bicycling time, which I would otherwise be doing more of...
I DID make a round trip of about 180 miles on the freeways here @65mph, but I actually stopped to charge it no less than FIVE times (probably a little over-cautious on my side, I know). It was an instructive experience (and I was able to charge at the San Juan Capistrano Nissan dealer twice, gratis).

Listen, to all of you that chimed in here: I really appreciate your input very much from your vastly more experienced perspectives. I'm just testing the ropes, trying to determine the limitations. I know they are significant with this older model, yet I also happen to like the smaller environmental impact footprint that accompanies a vehicle with a modest-sized battery pack!

How many health bars do you have? If 11 or 12 I personally wouldn't have a problem going 65-70 miles ...

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The first (or 12th?) capacity bar stays visible until 15% or a little more battery capacity is lost - about twice as big a chunk as the other bars. So by the time it drops you can definitely feel a loss of range. I noticed it at about 89% of capacity, still with 12 bars.