Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

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bocarat

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
6
So looking for a an earlier one to fit my budget. Came across a 2012 SL, 26k miles, excellent condition (like a new car), includes level 2 charger. $8k, private sale so no dealer fees).

BUT. only 9 bars and LeafSpy says 69.3%. Both of these put it in the worst 5% based on these charts:

https://flipthefleet.org/resources/benchmark-your-leaf-before-buying/

So what I am worried about, is that unless an older Leaf has had its battery replaced, in 3-4 years I am looking at scrapping this (literally, given the high cost of battery replacement - $5k?) as the battery will be shot. This is not the case with say a Prius where a) the cost of battery replacement is a lot less, and b) it will still run when the battery is shot.

Thoughts on this? What am I missing?

Thx! Great forum!!

andre
 
A Prius will not run worth a damn when the battery is shot. Gas mileage goes down and you keep getting error messages. If the battery goes offline, the Prius is pathetic. Oh, it 'may' run, or it may not, but it's seriously sad.
Spend some time in [Priuschat]. A HUGE issue is batteries going out, For the KW/$$ the Prius battery is seriously more expensive than the Leaf. People with older Prius are frequently trying to figure out how to get around battery replacement, or at least keep the cost to less than shocking.

In some ways buying an older used Prius is even more of a crap shoot than a used Leaf. There are LOTS of expensive things that could be waiting to go bad.

One of the problems with the hybrids is they are ~4x more complicated than an ICE. They have a bunch of weird, EXPENSIVE parts that occasionally DO go bad. When they do, it's not good. Replacement of some of them just about destroys any gas saving you made with it. Luckily, they are pretty reliable, but they aren't perfect in spite of the loyal hoards.
(Disclaimer: Own a 15 Prius, and 14 Leaf)

But, I agree, it's unfortunate that the replacement cost has essentially made the Leaf disposable. Don't think I'd buy a Leaf with 9 bars. With those relatively low miles it shows the battery was not well taken care of, or came from a hotter area. It's on the way out.
 
$8k for a 9 bar LEAF is too much. There are better deals out there, though you may need to be patient to snag one, or look outside of your locale and have it shipped in.

Two cars on this site alone, which have warranty replacement packs and are still on 12 or 11 bars, are priced better than that.
 
Agree with mwalsh. Run away.
bocarat said:
So what I am worried about, is that unless an older Leaf has had its battery replaced, in 3-4 years I am looking at scrapping this (literally, given the high cost of battery replacement - $5k?) as the battery will be shot.
Replacement is now somewhere between $7-ishK and $8.5K. Not worth it on a car that has little value now.

9 bar car is probably worth $4K to 4.5K. You use it until it's useless to you and dump it, unless you can get all the modules swapped in from a pack that's in better shape for much cheaper than the above price.
 
flydiver said:
A Prius will not run worth a damn when the battery is shot. Gas mileage goes down and you keep getting error messages. If the battery goes offline, the Prius is pathetic. Oh, it 'may' run, or it may not, but it's seriously sad.
Spend some time in [Priuschat]. A HUGE issue is batteries going out, For the KW/$$ the Prius battery is seriously more expensive than the Leaf.
What a mountain of BS
 
mwalsh said:
$8k for a 9 bar LEAF is too much. There are better deals out there, though you may need to be patient to snag one, or look outside of your locale and have it shipped in.

Two cars on this site alone, which have warranty replacement packs and are still on 12 or 11 bars, are priced better than that.
Yep.

I have not advertised my LEAF for sale on mnl but is up for sale locally for $8k: 12 bars, QC, 2013 model. Even if shipping cost $1000 (but probably less) it would be $9000 for a much better car.
 
SageBrush said:
flydiver said:
A Prius will not run worth a damn when the battery is shot. Gas mileage goes down and you keep getting error messages. If the battery goes offline, the Prius is pathetic. Oh, it 'may' run, or it may not, but it's seriously sad.
Spend some time in [Priuschat]. A HUGE issue is batteries going out, For the KW/$$ the Prius battery is seriously more expensive than the Leaf.
What a mountain of BS

Got one that had a battery go out? I have. I know what I'm talking about.

I didn't mean that battery failure is a common or routine problem. But, when they do it's not good, and replacement is expensive. Since SO MANY people are now trying to get their hands on replacement modules (there's a LOT of OLD Prius out there now), getting good ones is tough. Replacement of modules is often just a short term solution before other modules go bad, which creates a revolving headache.
 
flydiver said:
Got one that had a battery go out? I have. I know what I'm talking about.
Through the years I owned 4 Prius. You most clearly are ignorant although it would not surprise me to hear that you were shafted due to stupidity.
 
SageBrush said:
flydiver said:
Got one that had a battery go out? I have. I know what I'm talking about.
Through the years I owned 4 Prius. You most clearly are ignorant although it would not surprise me to hear that you were shafted due to stupidity.

Oooo, aren't you nice and supportive. :shock:

Got a 2015 in pristine condition, 45k miles. I looked for months and spent hours on line. I did due diligence. I don't think that's stupid.
2 months in the battery simply went off line. No warning at all. Ran like ****, dash board lit up like a Xmas tree. Threw some weird codes. Priuschat was of almost no use what so ever.
Then the damn thing healed itself. Never knew why it went bad. Still don't know why it's OK now some 6 months later. Pretty much takes a Hybrid (of any make) to do weird crap like that.
 
flydiver said:
Got a 2015 in pristine condition, 45k miles. I looked for months and spent hours on line. I did due diligence. I don't think that's stupid.
2 months in the battery simply went off line ... Then the damn thing healed itself.
Meaning ...the traction battery was not the problem and you have been around Prius for a few months. But somehow that makes you an expert on Prius traction battery longevity, repair, replacement and costs.

PriusChat would have correctly told you to replace the 12v and then report DTCs.
New, warrantied Prius traction batteries cost about $2000. They last on average 200k - 300k miles.
A 24 kWh LEAF battery is over $8000 to replace and will be hobbled in 2-3 years, below 60 miles range in about 5-6 years or ~ 45k miles.

As I said, your posts are BS
 
SageBrush said:
A 24 kWh LEAF battery is over $8000 to replace and will be hobbled in 2-3 years, below 60 miles range in about 5-6 years or ~ 45k miles. As I said, your posts are BS
I agree that flydiver seems to have let his complaining get well ahead of his understanding of the Prius hybrid drive. My wife has owned a Prius V for nearly 6 years and my son has owned a Prius for 10. No problems with the battery or electrical control systems on either vehicle. On the other hand, your post upbraiding flydiver gave me a chuckle. I have owned 2 Leafs now for 3 years or more in each instance. Neither experienced any measurable loss in range within that period of time. Will the current one eventually show some loss of battery capacity? I'm sure it will, but hardly according to the predictions you lay out above. (if you were right, of course, I would receive a new battery for free under the capacity warranty, but that seems unlikely)

Now, regarding the OP's question. A 2012 Leaf with 9 bars for about $8K. In other words, the old battery chemistry with an out of warranty degraded battery. Run, don't walk, away from that one.
 
Dooglas said:
SageBrush said:
A 24 kWh LEAF battery is over $8000 to replace and will be hobbled in 2-3 years, below 60 miles range in about 5-6 years or ~ 45k miles. As I said, your posts are BS
I agree that flydiver seems to have let his complaining get well ahead of his understanding of the Prius hybrid drive. My wife has owned a Prius V for nearly 6 years and my son has owned a Prius for 10. No problems with the battery or electrical control systems on either vehicle. On the other hand, your post upbraiding flydiver gave me a chuckle. I have owned 2 Leafs now for 3 years or more in each instance. Neither experienced any measurable loss in range within that period of time. Will the current one eventually show some loss of battery capacity? I'm sure it will, but hardly according to the predictions you lay out above. (if you were right, of course, I would receive a new battery for free under the capacity warranty, but that seems unlikely)
.
My statements were meant to be taken as US averages. The PNW has a better experience. By the same token I did not mention the Prius stories of 500k miles on the original battery. They exist but they are no where near the norm.
 
SageBrush said:
My statements were meant to be taken as US averages. The PNW has a better experience. By the same token I did not mention the Prius stories of 500k miles on the original battery. They exist but they are no where near the norm.
I understand that there are examples of poor and exceptional results with every vehicle ever made. And I understand there is faster capacity loss of Leaf packs in places like the Southwest than in places like the cooler and more temperate Northwest. I do not accept that 30-40% capacity loss in 2-3 years and 50-60% capacity loss in 5-6 years represents the US average for the '13 to '16 Leaf. Would that not mean that the majority of Leaf owners already have or soon will receive a new battery pack under the capacity warranty (and that is not to mention the 30kwh pack with the extended capacity warranty)? You would have to show me actual statistics which document that in order to convince me. That just goes so far beyond my own experience or what I see, hear, and read.
 
Going by the relative numbers of 12, 11, 10 and 9- bar losses among used Leafs, my guess would be a rough average of 15% capacity loss after 3 years for 4/2013 through 2014 Leafs, after removing both Cold and Hot regions. The 2015 would be more like ~12%. If you average in the Leafs with Canary packs, though, the average goes up quite a bit.
 
Dooglas said:
SageBrush said:
My statements were meant to be taken as US averages. The PNW has a better experience. By the same token I did not mention the Prius stories of 500k miles on the original battery. They exist but they are no where near the norm.
I understand that there are examples of poor and exceptional results with every vehicle ever made. And I understand there is faster capacity loss of Leaf packs in places like the Southwest than in places like the cooler and more temperate Northwest. I do not accept that 30-40% capacity loss in 2-3 years and 50-60% capacity loss in 5-6 years represents the US average for the '13 to '16 Leaf. Would that not mean that the majority of Leaf owners already have or soon will receive a new battery pack under the capacity warranty (and that is not to mention the 30kwh pack with the extended capacity warranty)? You would have to show me actual statistics which document that in order to convince me. That just goes so far beyond my own experience or what I see, hear, and read.
I was thinking more in the 30-35% battery capacity loss after 5-6 years. I think I confused you by using miles range remaining with a 24 kWh pack in mind while you were thinking of a 30 kWh pack. I agree with leftie's numbers.
 
Thx for the comments. A lot of good info but surprised to see the attitudes...:eek:(

Note I am in NE Florida, didn't mention that before, not sure of the 26k mile car's history.

Anyway, I think sagebrush has a valid point about Prius's - expensive stuff MIGHT go wrong. I have seen that myself - a 2005 and a 2011, and a 2006 Highlander. all have have been bought used with 110k+ miles on them, all have been bombproof until 2 of the 3 had their regen brake unit die. Ouch. $2300. Each. But otherwise zero repairs in 50k miles apiece

I don't think the $$$/KWH argument matters. It's pure $$$/vehicle-value. If battery dies and I spend $2k on an $8k Prius, I still have a car good for 200k+ miles, net value of $6k. With an $8k Leaf....battery dies, totalled.

However, I think the important take away here is that you MIGHT get a nasty surprise with the Prius. I have several friends who swear they will never by another car, even though I got bit. BUT, you WILL eventually lose your Leaf, and not at 300k miles either,

I read a few answers on this but not sure I follow.....if my Leaf has 3 bars and 20% SOH (or whatever), does it still take the same number of KWH to charge it to (reduced) capacity? Because if so, that's a deal breaker unless you can charge for free, and also means that over the life of the car, $$/mile goes up over the life of the battery. I.e. the vehicle is dead to you as a money saver long before the battery dies.

Found another one: 2013 S, 64k miles, new battery pack a year ago, 12 bars, unknown SOH, $7900.

How long IS the battery warranty of a 2013?

Thx again, this has been a great thread.
 
Battery warranty on 2013 is 5 years or 60,000 miles for capacity loss (8 bars) and 8 years or 100,000 miles for defects not including gradual capacity loss. Energy from the wall to charge from dead to full drops as battery capacity drops. There is a slight drop in efficiency as the battery capacity drops because internal resistance increases. The efficiency loss is only a few percent so it should not be a significant concern.
 
The 2013 has a 5 year/60k mile (strictly enforced) capacity warranty and an 8 year warranty against manufacturing defects in the pack. Those manifest as bad cells.
 
In round numbers .....

Time required to charge from empty to a full 12 charge bars in a tired 6 capacity bar Leaf would be about 2 hours on L2.

(Compared to about 4 hours when new with 12 capacity bars.)
 
bocarat said:
Found another one: 2013 S, 64k miles, new battery pack a year ago, 12 bars, unknown SOH, $7900.

So you can see that your trade-off is going to be higher miles against greater range. I personally would still go for the higher mileage car with the newer pack. After all, both cars will now be out of factory B2B and drive train warranty (unless they are on an extended one), so it is really a roll of the dice. That said, with the exception of the battery packs, many have had few to zero mechanical or electronic defects with their cars. I've only had one issue (while still under warranty) where I needed the front passenger side hub replaced and I'm now at 78,000 miles.
 
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