Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

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offtosleep

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2017
Messages
59
Great forum! Been reading for a week or so and decided to join.

I live in rural Arizona (Northeastern Arizona). I live in a small tourist community called Show Low (elevation 6500 ft ASL). I just found out I was offered a job at a Indian Health Services Hospital which is about 35 miles from my residence. This daily commute would be 4 days a week x 52 weeks a year with approximate 10 hours a day spent at work. I used Google Maps to plan my commute so I know the distance and elevation changes. The trip from my door to the hospital is 33.9 miles. From my home to the highest point along the trip is an elevation gain of 1,200 feet and this is done over an 18 mile stretch. From this point, I descend 2,200 feet for another 16 miles. Of course, the return trip would be just the opposite (2,200 ft ascent for 16 miles and 1,200 ft descent for 18 miles.) The total commute is going to be 68 miles.

I am not sure if I'll have charging options at work, but because of my status at work, I'm sure they would provide me with charging of some kind (even if its 120V).

BTW, approximately 3 months out of the year, the low temp is 20-30 degrees Fahrenheit and the other 9 months of the year are moderate with the low in the 50's and highs in the 90's.

Considering purchasing a 2015 Nissan Leaf S. Is this doable?
 
I think you would have a hard time making the round-trip commute without charging @ work. Now...if you can plug in (even with only 120V) at work, you'll be fine.
 
Sounds doable to me. I just did a 70 mile round trip with a 2,200ft elevation climb then descent and made it back home with 18% left.

But that was at 55mph, with no heater or AC and 12 capacity bars.

However, you say you can charge for 10 hours at at least 120V. That ought to add 50% battery charge. So on good days you'd use less than 50% to get to work, and be able to charge up to 100% if you wanted. Or on cold or hot days you'd use a little more (60 or 70%) and then you'd have to charge back up to 80% or 90% to get back home.

If you can get a 240V charger at home and at work you could preheat/cool and not have to use as much heat or cool on the road.

It sounds like by you'd start having range problems if you lost more than 3 capacity bars and really liked your heater/ac. But since you're in the cooler part of Arizona and you're looking at a 2015 you should be able to get several years out of your Leaf before that happens.
 
If I'm reading right the elevation difference is about 1000ft between home and work, is that correct? My round trip commute is 70 miles total but instead of one climb I have several smaller up and down climbs and a total elevation difference of about 500 ft. Total elevation change is over 5000 ft on my commute. What goes up must come down. I can make the drive, plus 5-10 miles around town pretty easily without using the CC on a single charge. When using the heater I have to charge at work, no need to charge using the AC but I haven't experienced full summer yet. Speeds vary from 30mph to 80mph and my average point to point speed is 35-45 mph depending on traffic.
 
Realistically speaking, if you don't want to have a Leaf Owner's Nightmare, you have to have reliable workplace charging. 120 volts is fine, as long as you are ok with unpacking (or just unloading/reloading) the charging cable (aka "EVSE") twice a day. Don't listen to people who say to go ahead with that round trip without recharging, because while it's possible, it isn't something you want to do daily, or even weekly - unless you enjoy daily "challenges" like that. Too many people buy a Leaf and then end up hating EVs because of the limited range, especially at freeway speeds and in Winter.
 
The first 18 miles are through a rural small town (two lanes in each direction). I'll be driving at about 5am in the morning. The posted speed limit varies between 35-45mph. Once I hit the downhill stretch, it's 55mph, but you can go slightly faster.

I'd really like to take care of the battery, so I'd like to charge to a max of 80% and not go below 20%. I foresee having to make this trip for the next 3-5 years. I'd like to make the car last.
 
VitaminJ said:
If I'm reading right the elevation difference is about 1000ft between home and work, is that correct? My round trip commute is 70 miles total but instead of one climb I have several smaller up and down climbs and a total elevation difference of about 500 ft. Total elevation change is over 5000 ft on my commute. What goes up must come down. I can make the drive, plus 5-10 miles around town pretty easily without using the CC on a single charge. When using the heater I have to charge at work, no need to charge using the AC but I haven't experienced full summer yet. Speeds vary from 30mph to 80mph and my average point to point speed is 35-45 mph depending on traffic.

The 1000 ft change is net. I rise 1000 ft and then drop 2000 ft.
 
What you really want for this commute, especially over years, is a 30kwh Leaf. Look for a leftover or used 2016 SV, so you also get the range-enhancing heatpump heater. A 30kwh Leaf S would also work.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Realistically speaking, if you don't want to have a Leaf Owner's Nightmare, you have to have reliable workplace charging. 120 volts is fine, as long as you are ok with unpacking (or just unloading/reloading) the charging cable (aka "EVSE") twice a day. Don't listen to people who say to go ahead with that round trip without recharging, because while it's possible, it isn't something you want to do daily, or even weekly - unless you enjoy daily "challenges" like that. Too many people buy a Leaf and then end up hating EVs because of the limited range, especially at freeway speeds and in Winter.

From talking to the hospital, it sounds like I'll have at minimum 120v charging. Of course I'll have 120v at home (I'm good with electrical and will likely install a 240v unit.

I don't like "challenges." I'd like to go a different route (petrol) if it can't be safely done without a huge amount of hassle. When temperatures drop, I'll also be fighting snow. I can't afford to be stuck and found frozen to death.

I'm in a rural setting with windy roads. I don't see myself ever going over 65mph
 
offtosleep said:
The first 18 miles are through a rural small town (two lanes in each direction). I'll be driving at about 5am in the morning. The posted speed limit varies between 35-45mph. Once I hit the downhill stretch, it's 55mph, but you can go slightly faster.

I'd really like to take care of the battery, so I'd like to charge to a max of 80% and not go below 20%. I foresee having to make this trip for the next 3-5 years. I'd like to make the car last.
Actually it's the stop and go rural that seems to hurt the range the most in my experience. The fewer stop signs and stop lights the better.

55mph is a good speed to go the range you need. 65mph uses considerably more energy than 55mph. But if you go much slower than 55mph while using heat or AC then you end up using more energy for the length of time that is left on.

On the heater note you might want a heat pump (SV or SL, but not the S) to improve winter range while using the heater.
 
offtosleep said:
LeftieBiker said:
Realistically speaking, if you don't want to have a Leaf Owner's Nightmare, you have to have reliable workplace charging. 120 volts is fine, as long as you are ok with unpacking (or just unloading/reloading) the charging cable (aka "EVSE") twice a day. Don't listen to people who say to go ahead with that round trip without recharging, because while it's possible, it isn't something you want to do daily, or even weekly - unless you enjoy daily "challenges" like that. Too many people buy a Leaf and then end up hating EVs because of the limited range, especially at freeway speeds and in Winter.

From talking to the hospital, it sounds like I'll have at minimum 120v charging. Of course I'll have 120v at home (I'm good with electrical and will likely install a 240v unit.

I don't like "challenges." I'd like to go a different route (petrol) if it can't be safely done without a huge amount of hassle. When temperatures drop, I'll also be fighting snow. I can't afford to be stuck and found frozen to death.

I'm in a rural setting with windy roads. I don't see myself ever going over 65mph

Have you considered a used Volt? (They also have a $225 lease deal on the 2016 LT leftovers.) You could do the trip in to work in EV mode only, at least in warmer weather, recharge at work, then do the same home. You'd still have the gasoline engine for backup, so no range issues.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Realistically speaking, if you don't want to have a Leaf Owner's Nightmare, you have to have reliable workplace charging. 120 volts is fine, as long as you are ok with unpacking (or just unloading/reloading) the charging cable (aka "EVSE") twice a day. Don't listen to people who say to go ahead with that round trip without recharging, because while it's possible, it isn't something you want to do daily, or even weekly - unless you enjoy daily "challenges" like that. Too many people buy a Leaf and then end up hating EVs because of the limited range, especially at freeway speeds and in Winter.
Very, very good advice.

I also work at an IHS hospital, and tried for *months* to get approval for L1 charging. I am a physician, the facility has difficulty keeping doctors, and the senior physicians in the hierarchy were all strongly in favor of my EV use -- all for naught. The local native administration can be frightfully petty and stupid, and have no trouble breaking promises. If you have *any* doubts, get the promise in writing -- preferably in the contract. And if you succeed, let me know!
 
offtosleep said:
The first 18 miles are through a rural small town (two lanes in each direction). I'll be driving at about 5am in the morning. The posted speed limit varies between 35-45mph. Once I hit the downhill stretch, it's 55mph, but you can go slightly faster.

I'd really like to take care of the battery, so I'd like to charge to a max of 80% and not go below 20%. I foresee having to make this trip for the next 3-5 years. I'd like to make the car last.
Although possible, you'll have to manually monitor the charge to 80% and then stop the charging in a 2014 or newer Leaf. Only 2013 and older US Leafs have the 80% charge feature.

This could work. Charge to 80% at home. Turn it off. Go to work and arrive with 20% or 30%. Charge for 10 hours on 120V back up to 80%. Then go back home.

But would it be worth the hassle? From what I understand it's leaving it at 100% for extended periods of time, especially in hot weather, that hurts the battery.

If you get a 240V EVSE on your home you could set the timer to end charging right before you leave for work. Then you'd only be at 100% for only a short time in the cool morning. At work it will be 120V trickle charging (less heat) and will reach 100% right before you leave, if it reaches 100% at all.
 
Would Larry H Miller Nissan on route 202 be an option for you? They have level 3 charging there. Checkout PlugShare.

Also, you could ask if they have a 14-50 outlet anywhere in the hospital parking lot, as a 30A+ portable EVSE with a 14-50 plugin on it would charge your Leaf at full rate.
 
LeftieBiker said:
offtosleep said:
LeftieBiker said:
Realistically speaking, if you don't want to have a Leaf Owner's Nightmare, you have to have reliable workplace charging. 120 volts is fine, as long as you are ok with unpacking (or just unloading/reloading) the charging cable (aka "EVSE") twice a day. Don't listen to people who say to go ahead with that round trip without recharging, because while it's possible, it isn't something you want to do daily, or even weekly - unless you enjoy daily "challenges" like that. Too many people buy a Leaf and then end up hating EVs because of the limited range, especially at freeway speeds and in Winter.

From talking to the hospital, it sounds like I'll have at minimum 120v charging. Of course I'll have 120v at home (I'm good with electrical and will likely install a 240v unit.

I don't like "challenges." I'd like to go a different route (petrol) if it can't be safely done without a huge amount of hassle. When temperatures drop, I'll also be fighting snow. I can't afford to be stuck and found frozen to death.

I'm in a rural setting with windy roads. I don't see myself ever going over 65mph

Have you considered a used Volt? (They also have a $225 lease deal on the 2016 LT leftovers.) You could do the trip in to work in EV mode only, at least in warmer weather, recharge at work, then do the same home. You'd still have the gasoline engine for backup, so no range issues.

I initially chose a Gen 1 Volt for a similar rural commute, 65 miles round trip with a 600ft elevation change, due to being unsure about the reliability of workplace charging. As time has gone on, I've been able to champion the workplace charging effort and get multiple L2 16A chargers installed, so I no longer have a concern about reliability - and chose to get a Leaf as a supplemental car.

I haven't had the car in truly warm weather yet, but there have been very few days when I could have made the round trip without workplace charging. I'm sure the 30kWh Leaf would change that equation.
 
offtosleep said:
The first 18 miles are through a rural small town (two lanes in each direction). I'll be driving at about 5am in the morning. The posted speed limit varies between 35-45mph. Once I hit the downhill stretch, it's 55mph, but you can go slightly faster.

I'd really like to take care of the battery, so I'd like to charge to a max of 80% and not go below 20%. I foresee having to make this trip for the next 3-5 years. I'd like to make the car last.

Charging to 100% does not harm the battery. In fact, it is required on a regular basis to balance the cells. Letting the battery sit at 100% for extended periods, especially during high heat, or sit below 20% is what damages the pack. Unless you have a 2013, or older model, trying to charge to only 80% takes additional effort with no quantifiable payback. The heat of the summer, and the degradation over time, will be the larger factors in the loss of battery pack capacity.
 
baustin said:
Letting the battery sit at 100% for extended periods, especially during high heat, or sit below 20% is what damages the pack. Unless you have a 2013, or older model, trying to charge to only 80% takes additional effort with no quantifiable payback. The heat of the summer, and the degradation over time, will be the larger factors in the loss of battery pack capacity.
On the first point, fortunately, I have a '13. But unfortunately, Nissan has never provided us any time vs. temperature degradation data on any batteries. Trying to charge to 80% could make a big difference in high heat scenarios.

For example, if I arrive at work and charge immediately only to 80%, I usually am at 80% within 1.5 to 2 hours. If I go to 100%, it's an additional 2 hours or so. The last part (about an hour) is the taper and bounce phase. I'm at work all day so if my car was set to go to 100% or couldn't be set to 80%, that could mean a car sitting at 100% for at minimum 4.5 hours extra (for me, more like 5 to 7 hours), every single work day. Imagine that in high heat.

For me, on the days I need to charge to 100%, I usually charge in a way that my car sits for no more than between 10 minutes to 2 hours at 100%. The 2 hours case is when I have unexpected things come up that keep me at worker later than intended.

As for "sit below 20% is what damages the pack", where does that 20% value come from? I don't think you're the first to throw that number around but it's not clear if that just something you/someone else came up with vs. a Nissan official guideline. It doesn't sound like below 20% is bad at all. The danger seems to lie w/being much lower than that and having a cell(s) fall too low in voltage. For that, it seems like you'd need to be well below VLBW and possibly right above or at turtle.
 
To the OP. 120v charging will net you about 3 miles per hour. However if I had to purchase a Leaf today for that commute I'd look for a 30KW version Leaf. You'll have a much better battery degradation warranty. Should be some good deals out there with the competition and gen 2 announcement.
 
I screwed up last night and went to bed! This thread took off! Thanks for all the insight. I'll try to address individual questions shortly
 
Phatcat73 said:
To the OP. 120v charging will net you about 3 miles per hour. However if I had to purchase a Leaf today for that commute I'd look for a 30KW version Leaf. You'll have a much better battery degradation warranty. Should be some good deals out there with the competition and gen 2 announcement.

Since he apparently can charge off of 120V for 10 hours I think that makes the 24kWh Leaf very doable. Basically he could charge back up to 100% at work. So now he's looking at making individual 35 mile trips from 100% charge. Although I must say that 240V charging at work would be more ideal, especially if you get to work one day when you forgot it wasn't your day to work.
 
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