EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

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Tsiah

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
143
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi everyone,
I'm Tyler, I've wanted an EV for years but always thought they were out of my price range til a week ago when my friend turned me on to a used 2012 leaf for $6,000. I couldn't believe how cheap they are used! I've been doing my homework and I decided I want to go 2013+ because they got the more efficient heater.

I have a 78 mile commute (round trip) 4 days a week. I'm spending more in fuel than a payment and cost of charging a leaf (my calculations came out to roughly a $50 increase in my power bill), so in my mind it just doesn't make sense to keep driving an ICE car.

My only concern is that I need to be able to charge at work in order to not be depleting the battery fully every day or worrying that I'll run it dead on my way home. One of the facilities guys at work told me they are talking about installing a charging station at our facility so that may work out for me.

I think I can get a 240 circuit pulled to my garage so I can install EVSE out there, but if not, I think overnight charging at 120v can get me the range I need.

I found a '15 S with 7,xxx miles, back up camera, and CHAdeMO charger connection for $11,180. I've also found some SL and SV models for about the same price but more miles.

Did the S get the better heater or was that only in the SV and SL? I read somewhere that the S still uses the less efficient heater... But haven't been able to find confirmation of that anywhere.

I would like to get a '16 with the 30kWh battery, but they're more expensive than what I want to spend. I think I'll make my move on the '15 and sell it in a year or 2 for something with the larger battery.

Anyway, thanks for reading my long post. I hope to join the fold and learn more with everyone about these sweet EVs!
 
My strategy was to lease a 2016 SV and look to buy it out at the end of the lease, which in 2019 should be quite cheap. It is under bumper to bumper warranty for the entire lease and I hope to end up with my total cost at about $14,000 or less.
 
Tsiah said:
Did the S get the better heater or was that only in the SV and SL? I read somewhere that the S still uses the less efficient heater... But haven't been able to find confirmation of that anywhere.

The S does still have the old resistive heater instead of the heat pump. Where are you located (roughly)? Below about 20F from what I remember the two heaters are about the same, but the heat pump is noticeably more efficient for moderate temperatures like 40 or 50F. Your commute is <40 miles each way so if you can for sure charge at work then you'd probably be fine with the resistive heater, especially if you just use the heated seats+steering wheel and keep the heater off except to defog. If your commute isn't all highway you'll have even better luck.

Also, it's a good idea to check out https://www.plugshare.com to see if there are any chargers along your route as a backup. For my commute there is a free L2 charger and a paid L3 quick charger in case of really bad/cold weather.

Note that I just purchased my leaf and haven't actually done my commute yet in bad weather, so I can only speak of what I've found in my research. Hopefully some more experienced drivers chime in as well.

Leasing a 2016/2017 S is also an option, you can get them for fairly low rates and the 2017s come with the bigger battery pack (and supposedly there are 2016 S models that have the bigger pack as well)
 
I won't lease a car, that's the most expensive way to drive a car, I don't really have money to put down on one right now and I don't want to pay for extra mileage at the end of the lease.

I live in Utah, most of the winter is mid 20's. My commute is down hill to work, up hill back home. There's a few charging stations (free L3 charging at the Nissan dealer just a few miles from work) between here and home.

I don't like to keep the car super warm anyway, so I shouldn't have an issue with the heater draining the battery.

Is there any other reason to go for an SL or SV other than the nav? Can I still start the HVAC in the S with my phone?
 
With your commute, until you have reliable charging at work, you don't want a pre-'16 Leaf. You have three options: lease a 30kwh 2016/2017 SV or SL, or wait for reliable work charging. Otherwise your best bet is a Volt. Leasing a Leaf is not as expensive as you think, and with the low residual you can then afford to buy the car when the lease ends, for roughly $12k or less. They are really trying hard to move the remaining 2016 Leafs, and you can get a better car and a better deal if you find one. Just don't get an S in your climate! Even with the larger battery they got after August (?) the S will have less range in typical Winter weather.
 
I don't like Chevy's... And the Volt still has all the maintenance I don't want. The whole idea of going EV is the get away from the gas, oil changes, spark plugs, timing belts, water pumps, etc. :D

A lease on an SV adds $125 to my payment... Which negates my reason for going to an EV.
A payment on an $11,000 loan is roughly $150 plus $50/month to my power bill puts me at $200/month. I'm spending $180/month on fuel at $2/gallon, plus other vehicle maintenance stuff and the possibility of leaks, blown head gasket (just went through that on my Forester... Which is why we have an odyssey now.)

I could sell my legacy and get something that gets more than 26mpg, but I'm still going to be feeling the hurt when gas hits $4/gallon again.
 
What's wrong with this picture? We have a (long time) Leaf owner telling a prospective buyer to get a Volt...and the (soon to be new) Leafer had to explain why that's a terrible idea!!
Stick with your plan and get a (older) used Leaf; you've run the numbers. Your "secret sauce" is that (free) L3 charger down the street at the Nissan dealer; the "top-off" time will be so short you might even be able to work it in at lunch some days.
 
Sure, get a (now less than) 24kwh Leaf for that commute. We look forward to reading about your many adventures in running low on, or out of, power. I won't even say "I told you so."
 
Tsiah said:
I don't like Chevy's... And the Volt still has all the maintenance I don't want. The whole idea of going EV is the get away from the gas, oil changes, spark plugs, timing belts, water pumps, etc. :D

I'm an owner of both and can see the argument either way. With the Volt, you'd be using so little gas (depending on climate) that it wouldn't matter much to maintenance or otherwise. My 45,000 mile Volt has about 1,500 miles on the ICE, and you'd probably not be using much more with a Gen 2 and slightly more with a Gen 1. At this rate I change tires as often as I change oil (every 2 years).

On the other hand, my recent experience with the LEAF suggests that a non-degraded battery would easily be good enough for quite some time. I'm ending up with 25-50% SOC remaining after my 35 mile one way trip depending on elevation change in low temperatures, but I have reliable charging on both ends (and nothing in the middle). I was earlier advised here against a slightly degraded LEAF due to my commute. It does require more planning and less spontaneity when you have little range left after arriving home.

I'm glad that I still get to experience both.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Sure, get a (now less than) 24kwh Leaf for that commute. We look forward to reading about your many adventures in running low on, or out of, power. I won't even say "I told you so."


Well the one I'm looking at is 1 year old with 7k miles. I dont think there's much degradation in the battery just yet. I'm not going to buy one unless I can charge at work so I shouldn't have issues with range, even with some degradation in the pack.
 
silverone said:
Tsiah said:
I don't like Chevy's... And the Volt still has all the maintenance I don't want. The whole idea of going EV is the get away from the gas, oil changes, spark plugs, timing belts, water pumps, etc. :D

I'm an owner of both and can see the argument either way. With the Volt, you'd be using so little gas (depending on climate) that it wouldn't matter much to maintenance or otherwise. My 45,000 mile Volt has about 1,500 miles on the ICE, and you'd probably not be using much more with a Gen 2 and slightly more with a Gen 1. At this rate I change tires as often as I change oil (every 2 years).

On the other hand, my recent experience with the LEAF suggests that a non-degraded battery would easily be good enough for quite some time. I'm ending up with 25-50% SOC remaining after my 35 mile one way trip depending on elevation change in low temperatures, but I have reliable charging on both ends (and nothing in the middle). I was earlier advised here against a slightly degraded LEAF due to my commute. It does require more planning and less spontaneity when you have little range left after arriving home.

I'm glad that I still get to experience both.

Maybe I'll go look at a volt...I'm not very interested in the half measure of the hybrid/plugin hybrid car or I'd just buy a Prius. Most of the used volts and prius have a good amount of miles on them in the $11-$12,000 range.
 
FULL STOP! Using a Leaf for a 78 mi RT commute in Utah absolutely requires Level 2 (240 V) charging at work and home. You've indicated that you'll wait until that's in place, so good 1st step. Then, remember that you will be an ambassador at work and pretty soon somebody else will get an EV and want to charge as well. So, plan for the future with the realization that you MUST charge at work, so what happens when somebody else takes the station (or stations)? Charging at work needs to cost more than at home so everyone doesn't flock to "free gasoline". 2) Your commute is DOWNHILL from home, so you might not be able to regen as much starting out. This is a significant problem with older 2011/2012 Leafs and their degraded batteries. I'm getting ZERO regen at 50 mph all the way down to under 50% full at our current cold winter temps (10-20F). Many others have complained bitterly about this, especially related to hilly areas. Fortunately, most of my driving is flat, but it is still disappointing when a traffic light turns red when I wasn't expecting it. The newer vehicles are supposed to have different battery chemistry and have currently more regen (but that may change as their batteries age). Something to think about. In your situation I wouldn't go with anything older than a 2015. In fact, if it were me, I'd only go with the 30 KWh battery. 3) Remember that the 24 KWh Leaf only has an EPA rated range of somewhere near 85 mi (and that's NOT highway driving, nor at 20 F in the snow). In the worst conditions you can easily expect 50-60% range (45-50 mi) when the battery is NEW. Most of the 2011/2012 batteries (5-6 years old) are down at least 20% and some 40%. The newer battery chemistry "may" hold up longer, and many appear to be doing better, but we don't have as many years of data. So, if you plan for this degradation, you'll be happier with your purchase. As an example, way back in 2010 Nissan was saying 100 mi range, which I quickly discounted and assumed 50% degradation at some time in the future. Then I knew my commute was less than 10 mi RT. I've been very disappointed in the actual battery degradation, but I still can do all of my in town driving, now and probably for another 10 years. 4) Finally, it sounds like you have a DCQC near work for emergencies. That's great. As long as you plan for this, are aware of the time commitment, costs, availability, etc. We've have had several people on this site that were so committed to driving an EV that they DCQC twice per day, before and after work. If that's you, then great, welcome to our little community, we look forward to hearing your exploits. If not, then daily DCQC can become a drudgery. Good luck with your decision!
 
^^^+1, listen to Reddy, he has good and valid points :)
I wouldn't expect a 78 mile RT even in the summer, winter I'd be hard pressed to try 60 miles without some halfway L2 charging for at least an hour, and this is with my 12 bar '13, wouldn't try either trip with my 10 bar '12 unless I was able to charge for at least a couple hours somewhere in my journey.
 
Reddy,
You live in Utah? If so, Cool. I've kinda wanted to meet/talk to some people who use the leaf in Utah and how they like driving it around here.

From what I've been reading, I thought 10 hours on an L1 charge would get me the range I need to go to work and 10 hours at work to get back home. Is L2 really necessary to get 38 miles in 10 hours? I'd like to install L2 at home and have use of L2 at work, but I don't know if they're really going to commit to installing EVSE here.

I did want to avoid anything with a lot of miles (I've been looking at stuff that's less than 25k miles) is the battery degradation that bad that I wouldn't be able to go one way and charge to go back the other way?
Maybe I'll have to give it another year or 2 and see if I can afford a model 3... Or move back into the Salt Lake valley. :lol:
 
Sorry, not in Utah. Check with the Electric Auto Association for a local chapter. Yes you can "make it" with L1-120V, getting about 4-5 mi per hour of charging (so maybe 50 mi overnight in avg weather). But remember that you will always be within a few miles of empty always. Yes, I remember the 70s gas crisis and drove around with less than 5 gallons in the tank all of the time. Is that how you want to live, not knowing if you'll make it home from work? Been there, done that, and no more. So, your real future range could be like mine today. I traveled 25 mi, multiple short trips, temps 5-15 degrees F, heat blasting cause I knew I could. Full battery to 1st Low Battery Warning, maybe another 5-10 mi left, all city driving no freeway speeds. This was all done on a 20% degraded 2011 battery. I'm perfectly comfortable with this range, I just want you to have the information. Sure this is a worst case senario for me, but I would imagine that your worst case will include hills and even lower temperatures. Yes, you will likely be perfectly fine for 3-5 years with a 2013 or later model. But you will always be reliant on work charging being available 100% of the time. Make sure to get an ironclad agreement with the top management and make sure you pay more than your fair share. There have been several people reporting problems with workplace charging, from filled spaces to jealousy to complete removal of charging privileges. Anything can happen (even the good stuff too). Plan for the worst and hope for the best, then you'll be pleasantly surprised by the outcome. Good luck and welcome!
 
I'm definitely planning on needing to pay for my use of a charging station, but the facilities guy I spoke with made it sound like they were planning on letting us charge for free to encourage EV use.

I can deal with cutting it close on my way from work. It's 38 miles with an 800 foot elevation increase on the way home. If the company doesn't want to install L2 charging, I can commit to going in to the dealership at lunch, plug in and sit there eating, then go back to work. I REALLY want to get away from ICE and the maintenance that's involved.

I'll look into my options for installing L2 at home before I go ahead with the purchase. My panel is upstairs on the opposite side of the house from the garage, but it's a small town house and I have a large plenum space between the top and bottom floor that I should be able to fish wires through. Failing that, I could talk to the HOA and see how they feel about me installing L2 on the side of the unit by my meter and parking my car in the street. I just have to figure out how to protect the cord so it doesn't get damaged by the guys who mow the grass.

Sounds like it's time to buy a single family home that already has 240v in the garage. :lol:
 
It sounds like you are committed and willing to make some sacrifices if necessary. That's great! Yes, 120V charging at home and work with the dealership as a backup should work just fine. Make sure to buy the vehicle from that dealership and cultivate a good relationship with them. I've had a great relationship with mine and it has paid off this winter with our temperatures below 10 F. Sorry to sound like a naysayer, but we've seen others in the past who've been disappointed with the range when they tried to push the distance to far. We want people to drive electric, cut gasoline consumption, clean the air, improve national security, and generally improve our nation and the world. Please feel welcome and join us in this quest, for it will be long and arduous. Some days are better than others, some people are more open minded than others, and sometimes times all feels lost. Good luck on finding the best and least expensive option to fit your needs and wants. Please spend a few days reading older threads since just about every question that you can think of has been asked and answered, many times, and with multiple perspectives. One size doesn't fit everyone. :)
 
pl017Dchp


just estimating with this calculator. I definitely need to wait till I have L2 charging at both ends of the commute or I'll never get charged when the temperature is low. I'll wait to see what happens with a charge station at work. If they install one, I'll buy an L2 charger for home and figure out how/where to get it wired up/installed, THEN I'll buy the car.

I was really thinking I could charge it just fine on L1 but if it's cold enough out, I'll spend more time heating the battery than charging it and never be able to get the range I need.
 
You don't seem to understand battery heating or L-1 charging. The battery heater only comes on in single digit Fahrenheit weather, and only uses 300 watts. Preheating the car is entirely separate.
 
LeftieBiker said:
You don't seem to understand battery heating or L-1 charging. The battery heater only comes on in single digit Fahrenheit weather, and only uses 300 watts. Preheating the car is entirely separate.

I understand the difference between pre heating the car and heating the battery. I didn't know that it was only a 300 watt heater.
My reading has lead me to believe that if it's cold outside and the car starts running the battery heater and you're on L1 charging, it will use the battery to run the battery heater because the L1 can't keep up with the heater and charging.
On a 20 amp outlet you can only draw 1960W (16A @ 120V) as a continuous load. (According to the NEC anyway) is 1600-1900 watts enough to charge the battery to 40 miles of range in 10 hours? Or am I misunderstanding something here?
The builders who built my house screwed me there anyway...I only have a 15A circuit out in the garage.
 
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