Hard Questions

So going test drive a '16 Leaf today. Seriously considering taking the plunge. We have a van for any long trips, this would be my local commuter vehicle, and I would mostly if not entirely charge at home.

My daily commute is laughable (5-10miles at most). Here are the questions going through my head.

1. a. Battery deterioration. At what point (years or miles) will I not be able to make my 10 miles anymore?
b. How much would it cost to buy a new battery when this occurs?
2. Will I one day regret getting this vehicle in the long run?
a. battery issue
b. range anxiety
c. lack of charge areas here in louisiana
d. NO trade in value
3. Will I hate the navi / apps system of this car?

I love the idea of no gas, and no oil changes, etc.. I think I can get a GREAT deal on a new one right now (low sales, low gas prices, economy here in La, new Leaf coming out next year, etc).

Any suggestions, comments would be appreciated..

1.a-10 miles should be good for many many years, 10+ but as no one has had a Leaf for that long it's impossible to say for sure. Charging and usage in extremely high temps isn't the best for BEVs but newer models handle it better and again for your little usage maybe you can plan charging around high temps.
1.b-It's really impossible to say. We know what replacement batteries cost now and they are dropping every year but what they'll be in 10+ years is anybody's guess(other than probably less than they are now).
2.a- I don't think so. You may wish it had a longer range, like the proposed new 200+ mile BEVs but as long as your OK with a limited range vehicle, it's a nice vehicle at that, at least IMO.
2.b-With your limited range, no way. Now if you were regularly pushing 60+ miles or 40+ with extreme cold temps, maybe, but even with 20% charge you'd easily be able to make your trip.
2.c-If your like me(and it sounds like you might be) I basically charge all the time at home, only occasionally use work charging because it's free , lack of public charging doesn't effect me in the least. I guess if it were better I'd be able to use my Leaf for 75+ mile trips but it is what it is.
2.d-True but if you plan on holding onto it for 10+ years, who cares.....I generally run my vehicles for 10 years, after that it might be nice if it were worth more than less but truthfully by that time were talking about a $5000-$1000 car so it doesn't make a much difference. If you were someone thinking of selling in a couple years I'd say the Leaf(or probably any other BEV) might be a bad investment.
3.My '13 doesn't have Navi, my '12 does and my main complaint is the constant nag screen(after every power up) which I've been told has been fixed(or changed to much less frequently) on newer models. Maybe someone else who uses Nav more than I can comment on how it compares to other modern vehicles.

Very very little maintenance is a big plus in my book, things like Tires and 12v battery would be similar to a ICE vehicle and of course things like an accident can cause unforeseen issues in any car but it's nice being able to drive by the gas stations, especially when prices are as they've been the last couple weeks around here. It was well below $2/gallon and lately it's creeping around $2.29 and as always will be higher in the winter. Another thing I hated about gas prices is it seemed like every time I had to fill they would jump up 20 cents over what they were the day before :x Up 20 cents one day, drops by a penny or two each day for a week or so and then all the sudden back up 20 cents! Of course as of late it's been mainly just jumping up and very little down.

coach81 said:

So going test drive a '16 Leaf today. Seriously considering taking the plunge. We have a van for any long trips, this would be my local commuter vehicle, and I would mostly if not entirely charge at home.

My daily commute is laughable (5-10miles at most). Here are the questions going through my head.

1. a. Battery deterioration. At what point (years or miles) will I not be able to make my 10 miles anymore?
b. How much would it cost to buy a new battery when this occurs?
2. Will I one day regret getting this vehicle in the long run?
a. battery issue
b. range anxiety
c. lack of charge areas here in louisiana
d. NO trade in value
3. Will I hate the navi / apps system of this car?

I love the idea of no gas, and no oil changes, etc.. I think I can get a GREAT deal on a new one right now (low sales, low gas prices, economy here in La, new Leaf coming out next year, etc).

Any suggestions, comments would be appreciated..

Click to expand...

Coach,

The 30 kWh battery in a 2016 SV or SL should last a long time for your use. Battery deterioration is much less on my 2015 than either original or replacement battery in my 2011 and I think Phoenix is hotter than Louisiana. I still have all 12 capacity bars after 26,000 miles on the 2015 and routinely drive 60 miles on a charge.

You won't have range anxiety with the bigger battery unless you need to drive more than 80 miles on a charge. Since the range is more than you need and you have another vehicle for longer trips, the lack of public charging should not be a concern.

Low resale value is not an issue if you keep the car long enough to get your money's worth out of the use. Convenience of plugging in at home instead of stopping for gas, lower fuel cost, and lower maintenance requirements help mitigate depreciation. The only reason you might regret buying a LEAF is if something changed in your lifestyle that caused a need for more range (new job with longer commute, etc.).

Navigation system is OK, but maps are not as up to date as they could be. Being able to start climate control from computer or smart phone is nice and the SV/SL models have better charging control timers than the S model which does not have the navigation system. The 2011 asked permission to transmit data every time the car was turned on, but the 2015 allows the driver to give permission for 30 days at a time (answer the question once every 30 days) so it is much less annoying. If audio quality is important to you, look for the Bose sound system (premium package) option.

Gerry

Thanks for the comments!!!

Update- The dealership actually let me take a program Leaf ('16 model S) HOME Ride was about 45% interstate..

I was not expecting the ride to be so smooth... the instant torque changed my life also..

I made it from the dealership (about 50 miles away) with still 44 miles remaining with nearly a full charge.

Noticed it read "98 miles" when I began... running the AC really eats the battery when driving over 75 :lol:

At this point, based on your comments.. I'm pretty sure if they offer me the deal I'm going to pitch... I'll probably order it and trade in my '13 FFH (still in the shop.. lingering battery issue).

I welcome anymore comments.. thanks in advance.

coach81 said:

I made it from the dealership (about 50 miles away) with still 44 miles remaining with nearly a full charge.
Noticed it read "98 miles" when I began...

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The "miles remaining" display has gotten a lot better than it was for early model LEAFs. 50+44 compares pretty well against the original prediction of 98, I'd say.

coach81 said:

running the AC really eats the battery when driving over 75 :lol:

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I doubt running the AC cost you nearly as much as going 75 did...

Levenkay said:

coach81 said:

I made it from the dealership (about 50 miles away) with still 44 miles remaining with nearly a full charge.
Noticed it read "98 miles" when I began...

Click to expand...

The "miles remaining" display has gotten a lot better than it was for early model LEAFs. 50+44 compares pretty well against the original prediction of 98, I'd say.

coach81 said:

running the AC really eats the battery when driving over 75 :lol:

Click to expand...

I doubt running the AC cost you nearly as much as going 75 did...

Click to expand...

That is what I found also, Levenkay.. coasting at 75+ cost dearly

Keep in mind, if you want a 25% increase in range (30kwH) you would need to purchase a SV or SL trim level, also gets you a more efficient heater (not sure if that matters in your loc), along with a few other features. Also, the battery capaciity warranty goes from 5yr/60k miles to 8yr/100k miles.

coach81 said:

1. a. Battery deterioration. At what point (years or miles) will I not be able to make my 10 miles anymore?
b. How much would it cost to buy a new battery when this occurs?
2. Will I one day regret getting this vehicle in the long run?
a. battery issue
b. range anxiety
c. lack of charge areas here in louisiana
d. NO trade in value
3. Will I hate the navi / apps system of this car?

Click to expand...

Speaking as a relatively new 2016 LEAF SV owner who did too much research:

1a. I'd almost bet a half a turkey sandwich (hold the mayo) that the average 2011 LEAF could still handle a 5-10 mile commute in 2021. It's all guessing at this point how long it would take a LEAF to degrade to the point where it couldn't complete a 10 mile drive.

1b. ~$5500 plus shop labor and core exchange (for 24 kWh.... haven't heard if a price was announced for the 30 kWh packs). I would assume after the warranty is up, spending that kind of cash on the car will not be worth its value if totaled, even if it makes sense otherwise.

2a. Regrets seem to be expressed by owners in hot climates with 2011/2012 cars, especially if they needed all the range it could muster for their daily commute. On the flip side, a gear-head friend of mine bought a used 2011 missing 2 capacity bars. He's a convert: says it's the best car he has ever owned, bar-none.

2b. Range anxiety makes great click-bait headlines. Here's the secret cure: just drive it, then charge it at night while you sleep. You'll learn to trust it. Run it to Very Low Battery Warning at least once so you know what to expect... hint: it's not the end.

2c. Public charging enables travel outside your "home turf" on occasion.... get PlugShare. Don't rule out private plugs listed by generous folks. There are more outlets than gas stations. My advise: Install an L2 EVSE at home so you can keep the "trickle" L1 EVSE in the car for emergency/opportunity use as intended.

2d. LEAF depreciation is directly related to final out-of-pocket cost for new LEAFs. A brand new 2016 SV will cost under $20K after negotiations, discounts, incentives, and tax credits. Is it no wonder a used LEAF will be priced about half of that, then? If you keep your cars for 10-20 years, the used price is just a nice bonus on top of the value you received.

3. Navi... On average it is mediocre just like all the rest: flashes of inspiration hampered by design-by-committee and shipping deadlines. There is no CarPlay / Android Auto. I've used worse, though. It's a net plus in the end.

Other thoughts: I rented an S for a few days before deciding. Not a bad trim level, and no Navi keeps it simpler. Consider the SV and SL before you decide, though. If anything, I've heard people say they wish they'd bought the next trim level up, but never the other way around. "I didn't expect to love my LEAF this much."

gshepherd said:

coach81 said:

1. a. Battery deterioration. At what point (years or miles) will I not be able to make my 10 miles anymore?
b. How much would it cost to buy a new battery when this occurs?
2. Will I one day regret getting this vehicle in the long run?
a. battery issue
b. range anxiety
c. lack of charge areas here in louisiana
d. NO trade in value
3. Will I hate the navi / apps system of this car?

Click to expand...

Speaking as a relatively new 2016 LEAF SV owner who did too much research:

1a. I'd almost bet a half a turkey sandwich (hold the mayo) that the average 2011 LEAF could still handle a 5-10 mile commute in 2021. It's all guessing at this point how long it would take a LEAF to degrade to the point where it couldn't complete a 10 mile drive.

1b. ~$5500 plus shop labor and core exchange (for 24 kWh.... haven't heard if a price was announced for the 30 kWh packs). I would assume after the warranty is up, spending that kind of cash on the car will not be worth its value if totaled, even if it makes sense otherwise.

2a. Regrets seem to be expressed by owners in hot climates with 2011/2012 cars, especially if they needed all the range it could muster for their daily commute. On the flip side, a gear-head friend of mine bought a used 2011 missing 2 capacity bars. He's a convert: says it's the best car he has ever owned, bar-none.

2b. Range anxiety makes great click-bait headlines. Here's the secret cure: just drive it, then charge it at night while you sleep. You'll learn to trust it. Run it to Very Low Battery Warning at least once so you know what to expect... hint: it's not the end.

2c. Public charging enables travel outside your "home turf" on occasion.... get PlugShare. Don't rule out private plugs listed by generous folks. There are more outlets than gas stations. My advise: Install an L2 EVSE at home so you can keep the "trickle" L1 EVSE in the car for emergency/opportunity use as intended.

2d. LEAF depreciation is directly related to final out-of-pocket cost for new LEAFs. A brand new 2016 SV will cost under $20K after negotiations, discounts, incentives, and tax credits. Is it no wonder a used LEAF will be priced about half of that, then? If you keep your cars for 10-20 years, the used price is just a nice bonus on top of the value you received.

3. Navi... On average it is mediocre just like all the rest: flashes of inspiration hampered by design-by-committee and shipping deadlines. There is no CarPlay / Android Auto. I've used worse, though. It's a net plus in the end.

Other thoughts: I rented an S for a few days before deciding. Not a bad trim level, and no Navi keeps it simpler. Consider the SV and SL before you decide, though. If anything, I've heard people say they wish they'd bought the next trim level up, but never the other way around. "I didn't expect to love my LEAF this much."

Click to expand...

Thanks so much Gshepherd.

I forgot to mention that if I do buy it will be at least the SV trim if not the SL, I want the better battery, navi, etc...

Really appreciate the comments and information. My previous vehicles (before the Ford still in the shop), I drove over 6-7 years but rarely if ever reached the 100K mark. I do plan on driving this one (as I did with FFH) as long as it will run.

I do also plan on getting an L2 EVSE installed at my home as I have already got a quote from a local electrician on installation along with an upgraded panel.

Looking ahead I do see gas prices going back up, in which case the Leaf will really shine, and I have always loved Nissan.. I've bought at least 4 previous vehicles from them with no regrets.

I will return the S model tomorrow night, and depending on the numbers I may very well put my order in for my new leaf!

This one's a no-brainer: you are the definition of a target Leaf owner.
You'll never have to buy another battery pack and don't worry about charging infrastructure. If you use it as a commuter car, you'll never need anything beyond your garage.

Thanks for the encouragement Stanton!!!!

Headed to the dealership in an hour... if the numbers work.. I'll put the order in

No deal... LOL.. guess I'm staying with my FFH!!!

coach81 said:

No deal... LOL.. guess I'm staying with my FFH!!!

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Bummer. I had a good experience using the Fighting Chance car buying method, which someone else on this forum had recommended. I received bids from a number of area dealers and was able to make an informed choice. No drama when I went in to purchase my LEAF from the dealer I selected. I did have a backup dealer in case any funny business happened when I went in to sign, but it was actually pretty straightforward in the end.

I think my biggest disadvantage is my location. NO ONE wants a LEAF here in South Louisiana... OIL IS KING!!! So dealers don't sell them, so they don't have any on the lot.. so there goes some of my negotiating leverage.

Well my FFH's lithium battery was not flat line this morning as it has been over the last month.. so maybe she is fixed and I can drive her for another 10 years...

Thanks for the help anyway everyone...

Who knows.. maybe the next gen Leaf or a Tesla may be in my future....

coach81 said:

I think my biggest disadvantage is my location. NO ONE wants a LEAF here in South Louisiana... OIL IS KING!!! So dealers don't sell them, so they don't have any on the lot.. so there goes some of my negotiating leverage.

Well my FFH's lithium battery was not flat line this morning as it has been over the last month.. so maybe she is fixed and I can drive her for another 10 years...

Thanks for the help anyway everyone...

Who knows.. maybe the next gen Leaf or a Tesla may be in my future....

Click to expand...

Well that was kind of anti-climactic.

For your short commute, a used Leaf would easily work. You should be able to snag one for less than $10,000 and probably closer to $8000. If it's depreciation you're worried about, let someone else take it. Yes, the battery will degrade in your heat, but you already know that the car will be worthless anyway in another 5-10 years (unless gas goes to $10/gal). Just a thought.

Reddy said:

(unless gas goes to $10/gal)

Click to expand...

wouldn't that be nice??

I know, i'm naughty to even think that, as it would make the economy hurt for a while as we all convert to EV for trucking.

So far I've gotten two phone calls from two different dealerships with SL's on site that want to deal.

Door may not be closed just yet.

When do the incentives end I wonder?

You may be in luck if the dealers calling you want to make their numbers for the month. Get them to compete for your business! I had several calling me after the bidding rounds were done and I had already bought my vehicle. Last day of the month, the pressure is on for them and they start chasing all possible leads. Just ask what their best price is, and let them know you are inquiring at several dealers for that vehicle configuration.

Incentives typically end last day of the month. Since it is really hard to stop offering incentives (equivalent to raising prices), the following month usually has another set of incentives available. You can check incentives at NissanUSA or Edmunds.com:

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2016/car-incentives.html

The $4K cash back with 0% / 72 month financing from NMAC seems to keep going. I has been has high as $5K, and I think last month it was $4K plus another $2K "customer cash" directly from Nissan regardless of financing. So, it varies. If I were a betting man, I'd think the incentives will only increase, but you never know.

Lease incentives include the $7500 Federal Tax Credit and then some. Right now it is $11,625 for Capital Cost Reduction, so leasing can work out similar to purchasing right now, and may be advantageous if your tax liability doesn't support taking the full $7500 purchase tax credit yourself.

It helps to request "your best price" bids (even just over the phone) from several dealers on similarly configured cars. If you're going to finance, state that, since they sometimes get a kickback from the finance company and might be able to share some of that with you to reduce your price. Make sure they are clear with you what they are including in that price (cash back incentives, etc).

End result for me was purchasing a 2016 SV with Premium Package in May for about $2500 under invoice, then applying the $4k NMAC offer. No sales tax on EVs here. After Federal Tax Credit, I'll be sitting just over $20K for my LEAF. An SV without Premium Package would be less (sometimes significantly since they are not as popular).

Oh well.. latest dealer called me back... '16 Leaf SV w Premium - sticker 37,690

My offer was

27,500 for vehicle (I realize this is too low for the Premium, but I just wanted an SV, that's what I quoted on the internet)
Take 15,000 trade in on FFH
Take 8,000 dealer and state incentives
Finance about 5,000 w TTL etc... I was willing to go up maybe a grand or maybe two.. if it meant closing the deal...

This offer too unreasonable????


His Offer

14,500 trade in

then somehow he wanted $17,000 to finance????

Quoted me a note of $221.00 for 72 months...

I thanked him for his time, and hung up...

Guess it ain't meant to be...