Used 2013 for my wife's commute?

I'm wondering if you guys could give me an idea of whether my wife's commute is too long for a used 2013 Leaf with QC 6.6KW. My 21 year old Subaru has sprung an oil leak or two which probably cost more to replace than the car is worth. We're looking at getting her a Leaf and I'll take her current car, an 01 Outback.

We live in the greater Seattle area and my wife drives about 44-50 miles round trip for her commute to her new job M-F. For those familiar with the area, Snohomish to Kirkland via HWY 9 to 405. Since traffic is so bad around here, it takes her about a hour each way in stop and go traffic. I've seen the "love my leaf range chart," but that doesn't really address stop and go driving. I'd get a L2 charger installed at home, probably a 40amp for future use. There are some L2 chargers near her work, but it's not ideal for her to charge while she's working every day since they're about a mile away. I'd like to only charge to 80% to maintain the battery life as long as possible, but I'm not sure if that's possible with this type of commute. Is it very bad for the battery to use the timer to finish charging to 100% an hour before she leaves for work?

It sounds like winter driving can reduce the range a bunch and I understand the preheat feature helps a lot in the mornings. Is it worth going with an SL or SV to get the heat pump in this type of climate and type of driving? I guess I'm not all that worried about her being cold too often especially with the heated seats. On really cold days which might affect her range, she could probably go grocery shopping after work and pay for a DC Fast charge while she's shopping once a week or so. Or drive to an L2 right after work and heat up before she leaves. But what kind of hit does the defog have on the range? We're pretty wet around here during the winter so we have to use defog a lot. Does the defog on the leaf use the AC?

If you think the range is viable, great! A few more questions then:
- It sounds like getting a OBDII scanner that works with Leaf Spy is a little tricky, and suggestions or clarifications?
- In this situation are there any reasons to go for an SL or SV instead of an S besides the heat pump? The market around here seems to have a lot more S trims.
- Nissan dealer vs Private vs Used car lot? From this buying guide, there is a used lot in Seattle which has a ton of them https://www.facebook.com/notes/162244573806988/A%20Guide%20for%20Buying%20a%20Used%20LEAF/1100737373291032/ http://www.paramountmotorsnw.com/inventory.asp?showOnly=Nissan
- Any other used buying guides I should read?

Thanks for all the help. I've learned a lot from this forum so far.

Look for a 2013 (or 2014) SV with all 12 capacity bars showing, and verify with LeafSpy that the State of health is at least 90%. Make sure the car was built after March of 2013 (so April and later is fine). Charging to 100% right before leaving for work is fine. Stop and go driving should also be fine. If it's Winter she should use Eco mode in that case, to reduce heater consumption.

You hit on many of the essential musts in your question. I think that given you're in the Seattle area, a 45-50 mi RT commute should be fine for a 2013 model. I'd however, advise the following.

1. Get one that is MFG after 6/13. Those have the newer battery packs and hold up better over time.
2. Buy an SV or an SL, the addition of the hybrid heater will greatly improve her range in winter.
3. Get an OBD reader and do your homework on testing batteries. Look for a 12 bar car. If you buy a local one, this shouldn't be a problem in the PNW area, since your climate tends to be pretty friendly on Leaf batteries.
4. Try not to overpay. I think you should easily find a 2013 SV or SL at or around $9K

I know your drive well. If it were my wife, her use of the heater would destroy the range in fall/winter/spring. Mentally she wouldn't be a Leafer: she'd be freaking out when the guessometer showed ten miles remaining. If it were me, I would be charging to 100%, initially to see how things go, bundling up, and would be fine doing it with my 2012. You do have some elevation issues, going up and over to Clearview for instance but I don't think those will hurt you too badly.

You get your best mileage/kwh going slowly, so the crappy traffic there won't hurt you, imo.

I drive 50 stress free miles with my 2012, charged to 80%.

Can you rent a leaf out there?

tkdbrusco said:

1. Get one that is MFG after 6/13. Those have the newer battery packs and hold up better over time.
2. Buy an SV or an SL, the addition of the hybrid heater will greatly improve her range in winter.
3. Get an OBD reader and do your homework on testing batteries. Look for a 12 bar car. If you buy a local one, this shouldn't be a problem in the PNW area, since your climate tends to be pretty friendly on Leaf batteries.

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Agree w/all of the above, although evidence suggests that ones built on/after 4/2013 have better batteries. Of course, since Nissan never has announced anything about battery changes, when and why with respect to model year 2013, this is all we can infer, based upon the evidence we've seen, so far.

Like others I'd really suggest a SV/SL for the heat pump. Yes running the defog uses the AC and the heat pump gains the most in this case, not so much in bitter cold areas(like mine). Like others I'd first use 100% and if your wife finds herself returning with more than 25% you could use 80%. I use 80% most of the time but do use 100% maybe once/week when I know I have a longer commute. When I do use 100%(and even 80% for that matter) I use the timer so that the battery reaches capacity shortly before I plan on leaving, that way it doesn't sit at a high SOC for any longer than needed.
Never underestimate the effect of not only heated seats but almost as important, the heated steering wheel. Many times in the 30s I used just the seat and steering wheel heater, which have little effect on the range. If you get much snow it's also important to try and keep it from sitting on the floor and turning to water, which greatly increases fogging or frosting of your windshield. During/after a snowstorm if I notice a large puddle forming in my WeatherTech floor liners I simply use my portable cordless Dewalt wet/dry vac and suck it out, takes only a minute or so and really helps for the ability to reduce needed heat usage. I also use morning warm-up almost every morning, again starting with a warm car lets you greatly decrease battery heat usage.
IMO L2 charging on the go is kind of a pain, unless it's at a place you already plan on shopping or eating at. Waiting for the car to charge(although 6kw is twice as good as the older 3kw) still seems like waiting for water to boil....
Good idea thinking about a L2 with at least 30a capacity, more is good for future-proofing and what I did. For you I might suggest a good 30a+ home EVSE and once you've got that, send your factory 120v EVSE into EVSEupgrade for a nice portable way to charge up to 20a at 240v. You might question why do that if you already have the home EVSE that goes to 30a but if you ever have issues with your home EVSE you'll really appreciate the backup. EVSE's are pretty reliable but things happen and again it's nice to have a spare. It's also handy if you ever run into a 240v outlet in the wild or possibly a friends, it doesn't happen much but again it's nice to have options. If you go this route it would probably be easiest to plug your home EVSE into a outlet instead of hard wiring it, that way you could just plug your upgraded EVSE into the outlet if need be. Your upgraded EVSE will come with a L6-30(30a twist lock outlet) which would be fine for your home EVSE but technically you may need to limit your breaker to 30a. I'd still run 40a+ wire and if you ever had a vehicle that used a larger EVSE all that would be required would be a larger breaker and maybe a 14-50 (50a) Tesla standard outlet. Again personally if you go that route I might suggest running a neutral wire and not just the required 2 hot wires and ground to your outlet box, only costs a few dollars more but if you don't and later need the neutral for something else it will probably cost $100s more then(assuming you have a longer run and not just a outlet tied off a main panel in your garage).
AFA OBDII adapters, assuming you have a Android I might suggest this one, I have it, it was cheap on Amazon and have had no issues with it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PJPHEBO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
AFA a 30a home EVSE, your cheapest option would probably be the GE Durastation that generally goes for $399, the best deal by far and has a decent length(18') cord. You'd have to install a cord and plug on it as it's meant to be hardwired unfortunately it's been running at $499 and up the last several weeks. Not sure why, Amazon did that for a while last year but then it went back down to $399 for quite some time. At $499 I might more consider something like a Clipper Creek which you could order with a plug already installed but it's the Tesla standard and would require you to build an adapter plug for your upgraded EVSE that would go from a 14-50r to L6-30p(a 14-50p with a L6-30r and wire connecting them). I believe EVSEupgrade also sells the adapter plug if your not really a DIY'er.
The more I think about it the more I'd probably suggest just going with a 14-50r outlet in the first place, easy to find range cords for <$20 with a 4?? foot cable already attached, just hook up to your Durastation(or wouldn't be required with the CC model) and purchase the adapter cord from the get go at EVSEupgrade. The 14-50 plug is kind of cumbersome but for your home EVSE it doesn't really matter, I guess in this case you'd probably want that 40a breaker from the get go also as 27.5a is really too much for a 30a rated breaker(80% rule).

Get one that is MFG after 6/13. Those have the newer battery packs and hold up better over time.

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I have a 2013 SV made in April, and it has 12 bars and 89% SOH. Several others here have similar build dates and capacity. There is nothing special about June - it's April 2013 that marks the beginning of better battery longevity. As Cwerdna said, we don't know why, as the details are not available, just anecdotal and a little statistical info.

Lots of good advice above. Another data point: I have a friend who does a similar commute (Kirkland south) with a 2011 Leaf (energy hog heater, old battery). Last winter was fine, arriving home right at LBW. An after market seat heater was installed off of the 12 V, so less heat was needed. This fall the car will be 5 yr old and will probably be a bit tight for the winter. From what I've seen of the 2013's and their more efficient heater, I think you'll be fine for at least another 3, maybe 4 years. After that, it will depend on the user's ability to withstand cold, driving patterns, weather patterns, etc. I would do it, but I wouldn't recommend it for someone who has the heat on high all of the time.

From what I've seen of the 2013's and their more efficient heater, I think you'll be fine for at least another 3, maybe 4 years.

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Remember that the 2013 and up S doesn't have the heatpump heater. It does have a better (hot air instead of hot water) resistance heater, but will still suck power - it just heats faster.

Thanks for all of the great info everybody! I wasn't aware that the 2013 S had a better battery then previous years, I just thought it was the SL and SV with the heat pump.

I'll be on the look out for cars made in April or later, that month seems to be the consensus from everything I've read elsewhere.

@jjeff thanks for the link to the amazon OBDII scanner! Is there a list of what to look for with Leaf Spy when I'm looking at a car? Mainly SOH?

Good to hear that charging to 100% isn't that bad and it sounds like that's mostly the heat.

I'm not sure what charger I'm going to get, I had been looking at the juicebox. I like the idea of getting the L1 cord upgraded down the line as a backup. I'll definetly be doing a 14-50 plug and future proofing the wiring and breaker for something I could charge a Tesla with. Can't wait to buy a used model 3. The 14-50 plug will just be in my garage probably running it through surface mounted conduit, my buddy will help me with that.

Is it bad for battery health to charge at the full 6.6 kw rate if I'm just going to be charging over night? I've read some of the L2 chargers can be adjusted for slower charging. So instead of charging at the highest L2 rate for about 2 hours, would it be better to charge at a lower rate for 4 hours... 8 hours.. etc?

I'll be aiming for a SV or SL. Looks like 2013 SV and SL models are around $12,000 around here. It sounds like there are a bunch from Georgia as well, so I'll be looking at carfax for the car's origins.

What's the easiest way to tell if it's an SV or SL? I've heard that's kind of confusing. Are wheels the easiest tell?

Thanks for all of your advice guys. I also got a lot of great info from /r/leaf

What's the easiest way to tell if it's an SV or SL? I've heard that's kind of confusing. Are wheels the easiest tell?

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The SL will always have a leather interior, while the SV will have only cloth (which I prefer). Premium Package is very nice also, especially for parking. Look for little camera lenses on the front emblem and side mirror bottoms. SVs and SLs without Premium are worth less used than those with the option package. Likewise cars with Quick Charge are worth more than those without. Cars with QC have a second, larger charge port with a hinged cover, in the charge compartment, while those without it just have a large blank plastic plate there.

RedBeard4Beer said:

Is it bad for battery health to charge at the full 6.6 kw rate if I'm just going to be charging over night? I've read some of the L2 chargers can be adjusted for slower charging. So instead of charging at the highest L2 rate for about 2 hours, would it be better to charge at a lower rate for 4 hours... 8 hours.. etc?

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The 6kW power level is insignificantly low already, compared to driving and regeneration. If you wanted to obsess about it, you could say that charging at less than 6kW would have to begin earlier prior to your departure, so the battery would be exposed to a higher state of charge longer than if you charged at 6kW, but waited until closer to departure. Other than that, a slight concern is that an impaired charging cable and connector will get four times warmer at the doubled current level when charging at 6kW vs. 3. But that's not likely to be a problem either.

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

One more question. I'm running vins and carfax on the cars I'm looking at online before I go see them to try and determine production dates and location history.

I've found vindecoderz.com which gives production dates and often gives issues which were fixed on the car (I think). The problem I'm having is that it will give conflicting location information for the maintenance on the car vs what carfax would suggest about the location history of the car. Here is one for example:

carfax says the care has been in Washington
http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?make=NISSAN&vin=-19%7C-43%7C-20%7C-67%7C19%7C-76%7C-38%7C32%7C-114%7C-113%7C12%7C-120%7C-87%7C-36%7C-66%7C38%7C21%7C0%7C29%7C33%7C-21%7C-69%7C-109%7C117%7C&dealer_id=70410751&car_id=429296496&partner=ATD_X

vindecoderz says there have been a bunch of issues on the car all over the place. Am I reading this wrong? How reliable do you guys think the production date is from the vindecoderz website?
http://www.vindecoderz.com/EN/check-lookup/1N4AZ0CP5DC424643

The VinAudit is only a sample form. I put in my VIN and it is the same. You must Pay $9.99 to get a real vin search.

I think the Carfax is accurate,

RedBeard4Beer said:

<snip>
What's the easiest way to tell if it's an SV or SL? I've heard that's kind of confusing. Are wheels the easiest tell?

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The easiest way to tell them apart is that the SL has a small, largely decorative rectangular PV module at the center of the rear spoiler above the rear hatch, and the SV doesn't. See http://grantthomas.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/IMG_5827.jpg

The black LEAF is an SL (or whatever the European equivalent is called). Here's another shot of the module: http://www.nissanusa.com/st/nissan/images/assets/2012/lef/features/11TDI_LEAFddb039.jpg

I concur with others that given your climate and commute, a 2013+ SV/SL with heat pump is the way to go, and you should be good for several years as long as you do a battery check with LEAFSpy before buying, and get one in decent shape.

Danl said:

The VinAudit is only a sample form. I put in my VIN and it is the same. You must Pay $9.99 to get a real vin search.

I think the Carfax is accurate,

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Is there away to tell manufacture date without looking at the sticker on the door jam? Or is the vin lookup close enough?

So, how'd I do? Adamantly, I probably bought a little too quickly and hadn't quite done enough reading on leafspy.
2013 Leaf SV
Manufactured 6/2013
26,000 miles
No battery bar loss.

Leaf spy screenshots:
SOC is 96.2% even though the car said 100% is that normal?
http://imgur.com/a/rrXwT

The QC number was 49 when I first looked at it. A little higher than I'd like but who knows how many of those were done at the dealer over the past couple months while it was on the lot.

Price was just over $13,000 before tax, title, etc. There was another one for closer to $12k, but it was much farther away and my wife didn't like the color. :roll:

Edit: Can has been registered in Washington it's whole life.

Sounds about like my 2013SL. In Western Washington it cools off at night so the car has most likely never seen a heat problem. I now have 28kmiles and 94% SOH

Looks like you did pretty well. The dash reading of 100% is not a true 100%. This is because the car will always keep a little buffer at the top and bottom of the battery pack because a true full charge and discharge is bad on the battery. At a true 100% the SOC should be about 97%, yours may have been not completely done when you took that reading. My guess is that your max capacity for GIDS should be around 260 or so. At about 59 Ahr, you're probably down roughly 7-8% from new capacity, which isn't bad for a 2013. You'll probably go another full year at least before losing that first bar, maybe longer in the pacific northwest. You might have found a slightly lower price if you shopped around but probably in your case having a car from that region (for battery life) is much more important.