To leaf or not to leaf, that is my question

I live in Southern California and am in need of HOV stickers. Right now my best bet seems like a Leaf. I some questions though:

1. My commute is 38 miles each way. I can charge at both ends. It is mainly freeway driving but lots of stop and go to to traffic here. Will the base model and its 84 mile capacity be enough for me or do I need the 107 mile version? I'm don't drive like a madman but I don't want to cut it too close either.

2. Assuming I could go with an 84 mile capacity version, what year used should I be looking at? I am reading about all sorts of battery problems on cars that aren't too old and having to drop by 5k or so for a new battery.

3. Regarding the last question. Have the battery "issues" been resolved in the newer models? If so, when did the issues get resolved? I expect the battery to last more than a few years if I'm going to have to pay 5k or more to replace it.

4. Any other info I need to know?

Thanks in advance!

You can make this very simple or very complicated.
1) Buy a new Leaf (any version) and you will be able to make your 38 mile commute with work charging for years
2) Buy a used Leaf and you open up a whole can of worms (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Seems like you've decided you want an EV now, so why not just go the new route and get the tax credit, etc. (and no worries about if/when you have to replace the battery)? My only other suggestion would be: get the 30 kWh version and you will probably be able to make the RT commute without work charging.

Stanton said:

You can make this very simple or very complicated.
1) Buy a new Leaf (any version) and you will be able to make your 38 mile commute with work charging for years
2) Buy a used Leaf and you open up a whole can of worms (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Seems like you've decided you want an EV now, so why not just go the new route and get the tax credit, etc. (and no worries about if/when you have to replace the battery)?

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Thanks, it probably is much simpler than I'm making it. I have no problems buying new.

Is buying a new one better because they improved the battery tech and they don't degrade as fast or is it simply because the battery is new and hasn't degraded yet but they still have similar tech to the older leafs.

leafn said:

Thanks, it probably is much simpler than I'm making it. I have no problems buying new.

Is buying a new one better because they improved the battery tech and they don't degrade as fast or is it simply because the battery is new and hasn't degraded yet but they still have similar tech to the older leafs.

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A little bit of both, but I also edited my original post to reflect my recommendation of the 30 kWh version (if you go new).

Do not buy used...

Get a New Leaf with complete warrantee, and federal, state, and Nissan discounts (for about $20k or less, unless you buy the tricked out SL (waste of money)). If you can afford it, get the SV (30kwh battery) which will last longer when the batteries start aging.

Then you drive the car trouble free for at least 5-8 years. By then, you will have saved so much on gas costs, that the car will be worth it to put in a new battery for the next 5-8 years.

unless the price of the car is low, AND the battery is bad NOW, AND you qualify for a new battery under warrantee, do not buy used.

Thanks to you both. I'll be stopping by a Nissan dealer at lunch. I see they have specials this month (ends today) but I need to find out details.

It says $4,000 cash back, $1,000 cash back, $1,000 cash back and 72 months 0% interest. Not sure what the cash back offers mean, would be awesome if it's really 6k cash back.

Then I think I could get $7500 back from fed and $1500 from CA? Unless I'm looking at this wrong.

If all this worked I could get this thing for really cheap.

I agree with the previous suggestions. But here's more thoughts.

A Leaf is new technology. We've seen EV battery technology change with time and it will continue to change. The are differences between a 2011 battery, a 2014 battery and a 2016 battery, but may not be very significant. Who knows what will happen in 2018, 2020, etc.

A new Leaf is a great car. It is a safe bet. It will certainly do 60 miles highway between charges, even after a few years.

Your best value is buying used. Based on history, a new Leaf will depreciate very quickly. But buying used opens many questions. Even with the latest battery technology, all batteries will wear out/age with time and with heat. So if you can, buy new.

Range drops with speed. Range also drops with time. There are very useful charts showing this in the archives of this group. I advise you to read these before buying, just so you know what you're getting.

Range also drops in cold weather. You're in a warm climate, so that's not a concern.

Bob

I would wait out 6 months until the new Bolt starts arriving. 200 mile range for about the price of a 100 mile SL. Plus GM has demonstrated that they care about battery longevity and has engineered extra layers of protection against degradation.

If anything, by waiting out you'll land even sweeter deals on an SL, and perhaps Leaf 2.0 will be announced.

I also recommend getting the 30kWH version. With a 76 mile round trip commute, you'll be cutting it very close with a 24 kWH model even when the car is new, and as the car ages and the battery degrades you may not be able to make a round trip without charging in-between. The base model Leaf S (the only one that still comes with a 24 kWH battery after 2015) also comes with a more power-hungry heater, so your winter commute (even in SoCal) will be greatly affected just from heater usage.

Also, will you be commuting over relatively high passes like Newhall Pass? If so the 30 kWH model is an absolute must.

leafn said:

Then I think I could get $7500 back from fed and $1500 from CA? Unless I'm looking at this wrong..

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The Federal tax credit is up to $7500. Meaning, that is the maximum amount of your tax to be paid for the year that can be refunded back to you. If your tax liability is less than $7500, and/or for some reason you fall under AMT, the amount of the credit could be less.

The CA rebate is a true rebate, and it's $2500 for full-electrics; the $1500 figure you're thinking of is for plug-in hybrids. BUT, if your adjusted gross income for the same tax year is above $250k for a single, you won't be able to take this credit. OTOH, if you are a low income buyer (I forget what the cutoff is), you will actually get a larger rebate.

RonDawg said:

I also recommend getting the 30kWH version. With a 76 mile round trip commute, you'll be cutting it very close with a 24 kWH model even when the car is new, and as the car ages and the battery degrades you may not be able to make a round trip without charging in-between. The base model Leaf S (the only one that still comes with a 24 kWH battery after 2015) also comes with a more power-hungry heater, so your winter commute (even in SoCal) will be greatly affected just from heater usage.

Also, will you be commuting over relatively high passes like Newhall Pass? If so the 30 kWH model is an absolute must.

leafn said:

Then I think I could get $7500 back from fed and $1500 from CA? Unless I'm looking at this wrong..

Click to expand...

The Federal tax credit is up to $7500. Meaning, that is the maximum amount of your tax to be paid for the year that can be refunded back to you. If your tax liability is less than $7500, and/or for some reason you fall under AMT, the amount of the credit could be less.

The CA rebate is a true rebate, and it's $2500 for full-electrics; the $1500 figure you're thinking of is for plug-in hybrids. BUT, if your adjusted gross income for the same tax year is above $250k for a single, you won't be able to take this credit. OTOH, if you are a low income buyer (I forget what the cutoff is), you will actually get a larger rebate.

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I won't be passing through any really high passes. Mainly from the IE to LA.

This whole tax thing confuses me. So let's say the taxes I just filed this year determined my taxes for last year to be $8,000 fed. I paid in $10000 so got $2000 refund. Under this same scenario next year, I'd get the entire $7500 since my total taxes for the year were $7500 and up ($8000)?

CA rebate is $2500! Paid via check, so unlike the Fed Tax Credit, it doesn't matter if you owe tax or vice versa. It does take a while to get the check tho.. I've submitted it last month and still pending for review as of this AM.

leafn said:

Thanks to you both. I'll be stopping by a Nissan dealer at lunch. I see they have specials this month (ends today) but I need to find out details.

It says $4,000 cash back, $1,000 cash back, $1,000 cash back and 72 months 0% interest. Not sure what the cash back offers mean, would be awesome if it's really 6k cash back.

Then I think I could get $7500 back from fed and $1500 from CA? Unless I'm looking at this wrong.

If all this worked I could get this thing for really cheap.

Click to expand...

38 miles *per charge* is of course very easy even for the 24kwH pack. It depends on how reliable you consider your work charging to be. A larger pack would make a lot of sense if there's any chance of your at-work-charging situation changing. I.e., someone decides to revoke permission, you have to share, device breaks down, or is taken out, etc... Personally I wouldn't base a car purchase on workplace charging, unless it was my business and I was in charge of the charging decisions.

If you lease a new 30kwh SV, you will get all tax credits, because the federal one goes directly to Nissan to reduce the cost of the lease. You can then, if you like the car, buy it when the lease ends. The residuals are set low, so leasing and then buying works out fairly well.

I work for the electric utility so we have about 50 chargers at my disposal so I'm not too worried about that.


So I just had an awful conversation with my local Nissan dealership. I went to their website and went to new car specials. They had a Nissan Leaf SV for $28,600 and said 2 left at this price. That price alone seems pretty decent but then again I don't know historic pricing. So I saw it said if I finance through Nissan Credit I'd get another $4000 "cash back" bringing the total down to to $24,600. This is a crazy good price after I'd get the other $10k from federal and california.

So I called them up referenced the deal. He got to the deal page and said, yes I want the deal for $28600 and I'd like to finance through Nissan to get the extra 4k off. He said, wow that is an awesome deal we got going let me get this started for you. He put me on hold for 5 minutes and came back and said he had bad news.

He said the internet site is wrong. He said the actual price shown of $28600 already had the $4000 for financing with them factored in. So he said the price is $32600 minus the 4k for financing with them. I called him out and said, why does your website say 32600 - 4k online price rebate (no mention of incentive for financing) and he said, sorry but it is what it is. So instead of paying 24600 id have to pay 28600. I talked and argued more and showed him that I could still get the 4k if i paid cash but he said sorry no. He ended up agreeing to go to 27800 but that was his best offer.

Thoughts on this? Was this price too good to be true?

leafn said:

RonDawg said:

I also recommend getting the 30kWH version. With a 76 mile round trip commute, you'll be cutting it very close with a 24 kWH model even when the car is new, and as the car ages and the battery degrades you may not be able to make a round trip without charging in-between. The base model Leaf S (the only one that still comes with a 24 kWH battery after 2015) also comes with a more power-hungry heater, so your winter commute (even in SoCal) will be greatly affected just from heater usage.

Also, will you be commuting over relatively high passes like Newhall Pass? If so the 30 kWH model is an absolute must.

leafn said:

Then I think I could get $7500 back from fed and $1500 from CA? Unless I'm looking at this wrong..

Click to expand...

The Federal tax credit is up to $7500. Meaning, that is the maximum amount of your tax to be paid for the year that can be refunded back to you. If your tax liability is less than $7500, and/or for some reason you fall under AMT, the amount of the credit could be less.

The CA rebate is a true rebate, and it's $2500 for full-electrics; the $1500 figure you're thinking of is for plug-in hybrids. BUT, if your adjusted gross income for the same tax year is above $250k for a single, you won't be able to take this credit. OTOH, if you are a low income buyer (I forget what the cutoff is), you will actually get a larger rebate.

Click to expand...

This whole tax thing confuses me. So let's say the taxes I just filed this year determined my taxes for last year to be $8,000 fed. I paid in $10000 so got $2000 refund. Under this same scenario next year, I'd get the entire $7500 since my total taxes for the year were $7500 and up ($8000)?

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Yes you have it correct, if your taxes were $8000 and you weren't part of the whole AMT thing, you should get back the entire $7.5k, so in your example instead of a $2k refund it would have be $9.5k.
With your 38 mile one way commute and work recharge really any leaf should work, new or even used but with a 24kwh battery 1/2 way charging would be a must, new or used and with a degraded battery figure ~4-5hrs minimum @ 16a 240v(max for a '11 or '12 or later S model that lacks the upgraded charger).

leafn said:

Thoughts on this? Was this price too good to be true?

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Even the corrected price isn't bad.

The base SV is $35,050, with an invoice of $33,730.
-$2450 dealer contribution
-$4000 NMAC cash
--------------------------------------
$28,600 subtotal
-$7500 federal
-$2500 california
--------------------------------------
$18,600 total (before tax, fees, etc...)

$28,600 is about $1,100 below invoice, which is slightly better than VPP pricing. I would consider this a "good deal", but if this is their advertised price with no negotiation, it sounds like there might be more room. See if they will take off $600 or throw in some goodies like an extended warranty or free tinting and free floor mats.

If you buy today you'll be more likely to get them to sweeten the deal than if you bought tomorrow, since it's month end.

If it were me, with reliable chargers on each end, I'd buy a used leaf below $10k and would drive it until it croaked.

jkline said:

If it were me, with reliable chargers on each end, I'd buy a used leaf below $10k and would drive it until it croaked.

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+1
I bought a 2015 SV for 15K with 8500 on the odometer. There were many 15 S models there but I wanted the extra bells and whistles. There was one 2015 SV there without QC with 3,000 miles, but I passed. Long and short... it is all personal whether all the myriad of numbers will work for you or not.

Since you can take advantage of the Federal tax credit and CA rebate, you might as well buy a new SV or SL to get the larger battery and heat pump HVAC system. Do like I did last year--use the Nissan cash for the down payment and finance the rest for 72 months at 0% interest (use Nissan's money instead of yours). Since depreciation can be a concern, make sure you get gap insurance to protect you in case the car is totaled in an accident before the loan is paid off.

Gerry

GerryAZ said:

Since depreciation can be a concern, make sure you get gap insurance to protect you in case the car is totaled in an accident before the loan is paid off.

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But don't use the dealer's gap insurance coverage though, as it's overpriced. Your insurance company may offer this at a much lower rate. Some insurance companies already offer this for free for a limited time, such as the first year.