Buying advice

hey first post! I'm about to pull the trigger on a used Leaf, saying farewell to my '05 Prius.

Here is what I'm looking for feedback on. I have two options that are in the front running:

2012 SL w/ 30K miles $9400
2013 SV w/15K miles + premium pkg $10500

Both still have 12 bars, though i realize the '12 should drop one/some any mile now.

Any clear advantages of '13 over '12? Japan made over US?

I'm not sure your location, but if you live in a state that has tax credits, I'd add the possibility of adding a new 2015 to your calculations. Nissan is doing 0%/72 month financing with a $5000 rebate on top of large discounts. My 2015 SV will cost me a net of about $14.5k. That includes almost $10k off MSRP from the dealer, $7500 in federal credits, and more than $3900 in Colorado state credits.

If you do it that way you avoid the calendar losses in the battery, you get a car with essentially zero miles, you get the lizard battery, and you can pick the colors and options you want.

I can't say the new car is the same price as used, so if you can't swing the total cost, that may limit you to used. But if you can, I think you'll be ahead in the end.

Yes, if your state has credits, definitely consider a new 2015.

Picked up a 2015 Leaf S w/charge package (and some extras like cargo cover) for about $11.5K before sales tax/title/license (incl. fed/state credits/rebates). After tax/title/license, everything inclusive, it was about $14.5K.

MSRP $6K off in dealer discounts, $5K more from NMAC for financing at $0 0%/72 month. $7500 in federal credits (if you pay more than $7500/year in taxes), $2500 in California rebates (not quite as much as Colorado, but still nice).

Out here, used 2013s go for about $12K before sales(use) tax, which would be ~$13.2K, so it just made sense to go new, even though I started out looking at used. Of course, it looks like used prices where you are are a little cheaper, and maybe the tax incentives aren't as good. So used may still be best, but worth looking into!

I think the 2013 had the charger circuitry moved to the engine bay, which freed up a couple feet in the trunk (removed the hump between the suspension columns). 2013 has the heat pump, which is quite a bit more energy efficient unless you're down near freezing temperatures or below. 2013 lets you see the actual battery SOC, which I've heard the 2011-2012 don't let you do (but you could use LeafSpy to monitor). Check whether the 2012 vs the 2013s you're looking at have the same onboard charger (3.3kW vs 6.6kW, quick charge). 2013 supposedly also has some efficiency gains in aerodynamics but it's probably negligible overall. 2013 also should have B-mode, which applies a much higher level of regenerative braking, allowing more use of a "one pedal driving" style.

Wow.. those are sweet deals. Unfortunately I get no help from my state. The best I figured I could get for an SV from what I see available, including the $5K bonus cash and the $7500 federal was in the neighborhood of $18K. Big difference between that and the $10K for a '13.

That's good to know about B mode. I use that quite a bit in my Prius.

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

cwerdna said:

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

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Sure, location activated.

I drive roughly 40 miles a day, 100% city no highway. My employer offers free charging at work.

Jefe said:

cwerdna said:

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

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Sure, location activated.

I drive roughly 40 miles a day, 100% city no highway. My employer offers free charging at work.

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Between those two, I'd go with 2013 SV w/15K miles + premium pkg $10500 for the lower miles and it being one year newer. Not sure if you care about leather seats in the SL.

inphoenix said:

Between those two, I'd go with 2013 SV w/15K miles + premium pkg $10500 for the lower miles and it being one year newer. Not sure if you care about leather seats in the SL.

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Do all 2012 SL's have leather? Because this one does not. Maybe this isn't really an SL?

Our 2012 SL does not have leather seats.

I'd get the '13.

Very simple advice... Get the newest, best equipped car you can afford. Remember that these cars are like buying a cordless drill... Its not like a gas car that holds its "usable" value if it has low miles. The newness of the battery is most important, and at these prices, buy the one with the most options you can.. these cars will last for decades, so in the big picture, an extra $1-2K is insignificant.

powersurge said:

Very simple advice... Get the newest, best equipped car you can afford. Remember that these cars are like buying a cordless drill... Its not like a gas car that holds its "usable" value if it has low miles. The newness of the battery is most important, and at these prices, buy the one with the most options you can.. these cars will last for decades, so in the big picture, an extra $1-2K is insignificant.

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Couldn't agree more!!

powersurge said:

Very simple advice... Get the newest, best equipped car you can afford. Remember that these cars are like buying a cordless drill... Its not like a gas car that holds its "usable" value if it has low miles. The newness of the battery is most important, and at these prices, buy the one with the most options you can.. these cars will last for decades, so in the big picture, an extra $1-2K is insignificant.

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Disagree. I've been on car forums for over a decade. I think this is the first time (well second, because both are from you) that I think I've ever heard advice along these lines. I can easily afford to buy dozens of used '13 SL Leafs w/premium packages but yet I chose 1 '13 SV w/premium package only. A single 1 of the former would've been a frivolous waste of money, to me.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=443435#p443435
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=443824#p443824

As for battery newness, that's important, but what's more important is the battery condition, unless one's drives/range autonomy needs will always be very short. A 2 year old battery from a Phoenix car is in WAY worse shape than the same age battery from a car in the Seattle area.

As for "these cars will last for decades"... hard to say since they only came out in December 2010. We know the the battery degradation on '11 thru '14 is much worse for many (most?) people in the US than what Nissan originally led us to believe. It may have unusable range autonomy for some folks well before the 10 year mark, or earlier. Although reliability has been fairly decent, so far, we don't know what things (esp. expensive ones) might start failing by the decade and say 15 year mark.

It seems that Nissan's stance of no battery thermal management might have been due to their original plan of the battery being lease only. They kept touting the battery lease only stuff to the press over and over before the Leaf shipped...

Jefe said:

Do all 2012 SL's have leather? Because this one does not. Maybe this isn't really an SL?

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NO '11 and '12 Leafs came with factory leather, regardless of trim level. It wasn't available until the '13+ model year. And, it only came on '13+ SL.

Any '11 and '12 Leafs w/leather were installed by the dealer or aftermarket. '11 and '12 Leafs only came in the light cloth interior.

For '13 to '15: S = black cloth only, SV = black or light cloth, SL = black leather only.

These may help:
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/Leaf-Press-Kits/presskits/US-2012-nissan-leaf-press-kit (Specs tab)
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2013-nissan-leaf-press-kit (Specs tab)

http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/
http://sfbayleafs.org/commentary/2013/09/2013-vs-2011-nissan-leaf-whats-new-whats-gone-whats-changed/

BTW, back to the battery, there are some who are willing to/want to buy cars on the cusp of battery capacity warranty replacement (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192), so having a highly degraded battery that will have 4+ bars gone before 5 years/60K miles is important to them.

As an additional data point, I have a 2012 SL (no leather is correct) w/ 39k miles and no bars dropped. Nissan wants $11.5k from me to buy it. I extended it for a year (month-to-month in reality) at the high monthly payment of $360.02 to buy 1 more month of shopping research.

I am half tempted to turn it in and then have a dealer buddy of mine watch for it at the local auto auctions to see if it shows up. If so, buy it for $8k - $9k (or lower since it is likely more of an oddity here). Hard to tell, maybe they ship it somewhere out West to try to get a better auction price for it. Strongly doubt dealer tries to sell it on his lot.

cwerdna said:

Disagree. I've been on car forums for over a decade. I think this is the first time (well second, because both are from you) that I think I've ever heard advice along these lines. I can easily afford to buy dozens of used '13 SL Leafs w/premium packages but yet I chose 1 '13 SV w/premium package only. A single 1 of the former would've been a frivolous waste of money, to me.

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That's the beauty of opinions. Everyone has one and also has the right to agree and disagree with the other person. I can respect that you have been doing this for so long and yes, you have valid points too. When I agreed on "get the car you can afford", the "afford" factor does not just mean the money you've got or can spend. It really means the money you want to spend on the options you see value in! For Example I would want to stick with a SV model instead of SL as I don't care for leather seats.

jpa2825 said:

I am half tempted to turn it in and then have a dealer buddy of mine watch for it at the local auto auctions to see if it shows up. If so, buy it for $8k - $9k (or lower since it is likely more of an oddity here). Hard to tell, maybe they ship it somewhere out West to try to get a better auction price for it. Strongly doubt dealer tries to sell it on his lot.

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The lease returns are usually not sold at the same dealer's lot. They go through a centralized auction process and can go anywhere in the country.

definately pay for the 13 to get the heat pump and 6.6 chgr.

inphoenix said:

The lease returns are usually not sold at the same dealer's lot. They go through a centralized auction process and can go anywhere in the country.

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Yep. It can take about a month for it to go from returned to show up at auction. It's fairly likely the dealer that it was returned at will bid on, let alone win the auction.

vwDavid said:

definately pay for the 13 to get the heat pump and 6.6 chgr.

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Yep. Assuming the '13 in question here didn't reside in a much hotter climate than the '12, I'd definitely go for the '13. There are numerous improvements on the '13. I LOVE the Around View Monitor and enjoy the Bose stereo, which are both part of the premium package. Premium package (and thus those 2 things) didn't exist until '13 model year.

If OP gets a '12, he'll be stuck w/the slow 3.3 kW on-board charger and slow, power pig heater and an expired 3 year/36K mile basic warranty and probably a year less on the rest of the warranties.

I gave my 2 cents on some reasons why an '11 (and '12, for the most part) is inferior to a '13 at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=435921#p435921 and some replies further in that thread.

And than... an opinion that a 3.3 charge rate doesn't matter as much if you have a (QC) port and quick chargers available in your area because charging at home still only takes a few hours at 220V (usually while sleeping).

If you find yourself out and about and need a quick 440V charge its 15-30 minutes whether you have 6.6 or 3.3 onboard charger. The question is if you have the availability of quick chargers in your area, and if you don't need to worry about ever traveling farther than your slowly decreasing range over time.

Whether you have a 3.3 or a 6.6 is still too long of a wait (most times) at a L2 when you are an active person pressing the range of your vehicle. If you think you would almost never press your range or have plenty of time then a 6.6 may have a slight edge to a 3.3 especially if you don't have quick charge capability or the infrastructure where you live to support it.

You have to determine what is going to fit your scenario best for now and in the future for both you and your car. This includes how these things may effect the future sale of your car to someone while having a diminished battery that will require more charging to go the same miles that it once did.

Infrastructure should improve as time marches on, and if (QC) continues to be part of that, your car will have less limitations even with a more degraded battery.

I don't know if you have to pay sales tax when buying from a private party in your state. But if not, between that and dealer fees you can save some pretty good bucks by buying from a private party.

To me, the real bargains are the 2011's with QC and a brand new 2015 (lizard replacement) battery or one that is on the cusp of qualifying. But I do understand, that if you need more efficient heat, a 2013+ would give you better range. Where I live, I don't need hot dark leather seats or heat. I'm also not particular about the stereo.

Now if you could find me a leaf that would cool my battery. That would reign supreme for me!

Thanks all for the advice. Sounds like between these two, '13 has some clear advantages.

Evoforce said:

I don't know if you have to pay sales tax when buying from a private party in your state. But if not, between that and dealer fees you can save some pretty good bucks by buying from a private party.

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Agree 100%, between avoiding dealer fees (usually $400+ for small dealers "doc" fees) and being able to ask the original owner questions, I would prefer a private party. But I can't find anyone selling nearby!