Potential Leaf owner with typical questions

Hey Leaf people, been looking for some time for a nice off lease car. Initially convinced myself I need a heat pump model (I'm in SE PA) and that the quick charge could be potentially very handy. Focusing on 2013 SV w/QC, seems like that is a hot item. Lots of awesome deals but even better deals if I forgo the QC and if I could do without the heat pump then the 2012 SV/SL deals are even better. Aside from other issues (battery status, Japan/US build for example) anyone care to weigh in on the usefulness of quick charge (not so many in my area and seems like they are down a lot..) and just how important is the heat pump? I will likely use this as my run around car, probably 30-60 miles on a typical day. I've been thinking that I could do without the QC but given the climate here I think the heat pump is pretty much a necessity. I wish Nissan had put them in all the cars.. I want my wife to be able to drive the car from time to time as well and she hates being cold. I've been the owner of a 1995 US Electricar/Geo Prizm, 3 phase conversion with half a ton of lead in the floor, 25 miles range on a good day. Wonderful engineering but I really have been aching to step up to a more usable EV. Looking to spend 10-12k, prefer used rather than buy/lease new. I'm an auto tech so I plan on tinkering as well. Thanks for any thoughts you may care to offer.

I might look at a Volt in your case.

There are a few red flags: 60 miles in the winter is pushing it, especially if your wife like the car warm. The range on a LEAF (really any car) drops significantly in the winter, not including the heat pump/resistive heater issue.

Buying a used vehicle will only make the problem worse because you're starting with a vehicle with lower battery capacity.

If you are used to a 25 mile range, a LEAF should work fine for you. The two biggest factors for battery capacity are time and heat, so the older the car, the less capacity you will be starting with. The QC comes with the LED headlights and 6.6 kw charger, so I think that is a good option to have...

This is very much a person-by-person difference. If you have and use a 1995 electric car with 25miles of range, then you are more in the class of people that buys a car and keeps it versus the buy a car and trade it in every couple years. So in that regard, you might want good tech now to limit the impact in the future. I would think that a quick charge port would be a necessity then. Yes, now they are few and far between and usually broken or ICE'd. However in 10years? Or 20 years like your current 1995 model is today? They might be much more common and take your 25mi leaf much further.

As for the heat pump, it seems to work well enough, but honestly I rarely use HVAC at all. Sometimes I will preheat the car so that the first layer of ice melts a bit and then I can wiper off the snow, or just to bring the cabin up to defrost before I get in. But once I am driving, rarely do I need any heat at all, even when it is -20C out. So resistance heater vs. pump heater when plugged in, who cares? But for the maybe 2 times I have used heat on long range trips, I am glad I had the pump for the supposed increase in efficiency. And you guessed it, both were with the wife.

As others have echoed, if you buy used you are starting off pre-degraded. Just be aware of that. As to US vs. Japanese built this is a harder decision because the 13's have a better pack than the 12's but are built stateside. The Japanese ones were built excellently but have the poorer pack. I have a 13 from the states and the build quality is not up to what I usually like (Toyota/Lexus) but it isn't severely deficient.

There is nothing to discuss... Your are buying used.

Buy the car that you want that has everything... What is there to think about? A couple of bucks more or less?

The QC comes with the LED headlights and 6.6 kw charger, so I think that is a good option to have...

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As long as the car is an SV or SL and has the heat pump, it will have a 6.6kw onboard charger. Only the S with no QC has the 3.3kw charger from '13 on. Given the trip lengths you propose, you have two choices: find other arrangements for those 60 mile trips in Winter (even with a heat pump) or lease a new SV or SL. Ok, three choices, actually: if you can find a used '15, that would have enough range.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to offer your thoughts, all good points. Fortunately for us, my wife and I have lots of transportation options on any given day as we have too many vehicles now! (the wife is a good sport and eco minded but I did get some version of "we need another car???" ) Our current daily drivers are an assortment of VW diesels, somewhat older vintage and an F150 for utility use, plus the Prizm which is really my sunny day fun car. So as far as range or weather limitations we always have the option to take one of the dino cars. What I want to do is start with the Leaf and work that in to our driving needs as much as possible and to that end figured that if either quick charging or an improved hvac system increased the odds of the car getting driven that is a plus. And yes, I'm thinking long term with it, I tend to keep stuff (even tech) as long as its still working, even though the fast charge system is underdeveloped one might hope that in a few years that will change meaningfully and the Leaf could be used for more regional driving, trips to the shore, stuff like that. Myself, I'm not that cold sensitive, in our area I would be more concerned about keeping ice off the windshield than warming my butt. At any rate, look forward to joining the family of Leaf owners soon and again, thanks for the helpful comments.

Having owned both a 2011 SL (which I intended to keep forever) and now a 2015 SL, I have a few comments:
1. I strongly recommend one with a heat pump for your climate and travel with your wife.
2. I do not use QC nearly as much with the 2015 as I did with the 2011 because I can add charge at home or at my workshop relatively quickly with the 6 kW charger if I need additional range to run errands. Still, I would not want one without QC because it allows me to take the Leaf on longer trips across the city if I know there are working QC units along the way.
3. Even though I have other vehicles to choose from, the Leaf accumulates most of my annual mileage. I suspect it will be the same for you so I recommend that you choose one with all the features you want.

Gerry

We are thrilled with our two leafs. We enjoy the SL models and wouldn't want to be without their quick charge. Having two electric vehicles actually is more advantageous than having one! We do have ICE for very long trips but only needed to use it once this year for that. I also tow a medium sized Deck boat to the lakes and use my Cherokee for that also.

Nissan should have provided cooling for their existing battery pack chemistry in order to get a longer life from them but I am very happy with the rest of the vehicle. One car already has a replacement battery and the second is about to qualify for a free replacement also. I always have been one to keep my vehicles a long time. My hope is that Nissan will support my cars well into the future with batteries and parts. Time will tell...

Also hoping that Nissan or some 3rd party will recognize the true value of these wonderful cars and make a viable long range battery available to cars made in the first 6-7 years or more of production. If they were smart it would prop up the value of both new and used to have this type of availability. I bought both of my cars used and paid a premium for the one that had the new replacement (lizard) battery in it.

powersurge said:

There is nothing to discuss... Your are buying used.

Buy the car that you want that has everything... What is there to think about? A couple of bucks more or less?

Click to expand...

IMHO, that's pretty lousy advice.

I bought used. Part of my saga and process was listed at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=429492#p429492. After I passed on a car that I saw, I was told about the biweekly auctions, about 80 Leafs showing up each time, expecting 15 or so being '13 SV, etc. Before the auction that my Leaf came from, I told him I wanted a '13 SV. He sent me a list of 21 '13 SV coming up in the next auction with VIN (so I could run a check), interior and exterior color, mileage and what packages they had, if any.

I certainly didn't feel it was worth the $1K to $1.5K premium for one w/QC + LED package (my leased one had it; discussed at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430552#p430552) but DID want the premium package (worth it to me). I had preferences as to color, which ones are ruled out for me and that it MUST be a 2013. I didn't want a 2012 (slow OBC, more battery degradation if all else is equal, no heat pump heater, no Bose stereo, no Around View Monitor, out of basic warranty, 1 year less warranty on everything else, etc.)

I certainly didn't want to pay for an '13 SL either as I didn't want to pay for leather nor the CHAdeMO inlet.

I sent him the VINs of the SVs I was interested in, only 2 this time for me. He sent me some info from Manheim and pics of the cars and some of their existing damage (e.g. scratches, curb rash, etc.). The auction that round also had 2 others with QC + LED and premium that met other criteria but the estimated $1K to $1.5K premium was too much.

Conclusion at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825.

No one can tell you the value of QC; it depends on how they're deployed in your area and whether or not they're conveniently located and reliable enough to facilitate longer trips you'd want to make with the vehicle, and how important that ability is to you. Personally I enjoy having the QC option. It did facilitate a few long trips in our 2012. My 2015 is a year old now and I have only QC'd one time, at the dealership when I picked up the car. And my area is rife with QC stations. But if the need crops up, I want the option.

As far as the heat-pump it helps on cold days, but not frigid ones. Effectiveness begins to drop off below 25F or so. By the time you get to 0F, you're back to full-time resistive heating.

Pre-heating the car while still plugged-in can really help reduce the impact of cold-weather on range, especially for trips of 30 minutes or less.

My primary consideration in a used LEAF would be the battery. Invest in the OBDII dongle and the Leaf Spy smartphone app so you can get the real detailed battery info from the car. The difference between a decent battery and a degraded one far outweighs all the other value considerations, imho.

If you've enjoyed driving a lead-acid based EV, I think you'll be ecstatic with a LEAF.

Ok, let me put my 2 cents in here. I too live in SE PA. For 2 years I drove a Mitsubishi I-MiEV. It had no QC, a slow 3.3 on board charger and only the resistance heater. After one good winter in the Phila area, I made up my mind that I was not going to freeze if I could avoid it. Hence I purchased a used 2012 Volt. I absolutely loved my Mitsubishi, but it was too small, had too little range, took too long to charge, and I literally almost froze to death on more than one morning. My 80+ mile summer range morphed into less than 30 miles if I were to use the heater full blast. My roundtrip commute was 32 miles, so I rarely used the heater. Really, it was an unpleasant experience. Also, I was not able to drive the "I" down to the Phila Airport(it is an 85 mile round trip from my home in Bucks County) because there was no viable charging options, other than pulling in somewhere and charging it for 3-4 hours on a Level II unit somewhere. That is just not an acceptable way to drive, in my book. If you were to buy a 2015 with the 6.6 on board charger, the QC option and the heat pump, then you have a legitimate car for most of your trips, even in the cold winter. However, I don't know your driving habits. 30-60 miles will tax the car's range on cold days. If, however, you can QC or Level II charge (at work or somewhere else)this might be entirely doable. As others have mentioned, you will need to deal with reduced battery capacity simply because you want a used LEAF. That's fine if you are able to get around with the reduced range...especially a few years down the line. FWIW, I never lost any capacity in the I-MiEV, even after 2 years, but the LEAF will lose some for sure(and the "I" would have too, eventually). Why accept less than what you need, the savings between a used S and a used SV are probably not that great. If you can use that hybrid heater and not take a big hit on the battery, then you are good to go. Summer times, if you have a low mileage 2015, you might see (easily)over 100 miles on a typical day(assuming you are not driving 70 MPH on the PA Turnpike). Even my I-MiEV, which had a stated range of 62 miles was always in the 80 mile range. On a few occasions I was seeing 90 miles. Given the additional 20 miles on a LEAF, you can see that you'd do better.

One option, since you suggest that you tinker or work on EV's, would be adding that portable diesel heater unit that a NJ I-MiEV driver installed on his Mitsubishi. It's on Youtube and seemed to really work.

Again, get the best car that you can afford, with what you NEED in it. I believe that you DO need the added features of an SV or SL.

Good luck with your search.

Lou

Nubo said:

No one can tell you the value of QC; it depends on how they're deployed in your area and whether or not they're conveniently located and reliable enough to facilitate longer trips you'd want to make with the vehicle, and how important that ability is to you.

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Yep, along w/their pricing and as part of reliability, not only that of the equipment but whether the spot is frequently ICEd or blocked or whether there's a long line. NRG EVgo is a ripoff (http://www.nrgevgo.com/san-francisco-bay-area/) and apparently their billing system is horrible and a total waste of time to deal with when there are problems. Blink is a ripoff at $0.59/kWh to DC FC in the Bay Area. Those are basically almost all the DC FC choices available in the Bay Area.

When Boardwalk Nissan in Redwood City's DC FC was free (where I leased my 1st Leaf from), there were apparently long lines. I never used it once since it was nowhere near me and I'd not want to use it to go from the South Bay (where I am) to/from SF due to the lines and very limited hours. I recall someone posted in the Bay Area Leaf FB group that they were DC FCing and 5 Leafs were in line behind them.

The above DC FC is no longer free, so I'd guess there are few lines anymore, maybe except Nissan NCTC users (I never had that and still don't). And, I have no CHAdeMO inlet on my current Leaf, so it's moot now.

Nubo said:

Personally I enjoy having the QC option. It did facilitate a few long trips in our 2012. My 2015 is a year old now and I have only QC'd one time, at the dealership when I picked up the car. And my area is rife with QC stations. But if the need crops up, I want the option.

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For me, it wasn't worth $1K to $1.5K extra. That buys me a LOT of gas for my Prius and less headache, anxiety, waiting and inconvenience. Even at $1K premium, $3.50/gal and if I only achieved 40 mpg in my Prius, that buys me over 285 gallons and would propel my Prius over 11.4K miles.

So, really, I want to pay that premium for the privilege of paying WAY more per mile to DC FC than it does to drive my Prius (and the above)? And, I'll barely ever use it? No thanks. I'm not hardcore like Tony Williams.

In 2 years, on my 1st Leaf, I successfully used my CHAdeMO inlet 16 times, all of which were on free DC FCs (weren't many then and aren't many now). In every case, I didn't actually really need the juice. I was sorta passing by and figured I could pick some up while catching up on a few things on my phone.

IIRC, all 3/4 or all 4 of the free DC FCs I ever used are no longer free. Even with free DC FCing, the cost of the inlet makes each of those charges rather expensive. Then there's the whole time, value, money equation.

Nubo said:

My primary consideration in a used LEAF would be the battery. Invest in the OBDII dongle and the Leaf Spy smartphone app so you can get the real detailed battery info from the car. The difference between a decent battery and a degraded one far outweighs all the other value considerations, imho.

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Yes, quite important. I made sure the used candidates didn't reside in hot climates (e.g. Phoenix) and I used Leaf Spy on them.

I really appreciate all the helpful comments here. I think for my needs the heat pump is pretty much a necessity, the quick charge less so. For my own running around level two charging would be fine, if I need more range I can just take another vehicle. My wife's work/commute doesn't allow for much quick charging, she would have to do with whatever range the car might have for a given day. I'm not sure if a price premium in the 1-1.5k range is justified for the quick charge option, of course I've been looking for a motivated dealer who wants to deal I suppose the car will be relegated to short range trips/commuting till the next gen comes along. I used to be more of an early adopter, now I prefer to buy used/depreciated and proven technology. I also appreciate the comments on battery condition, that is something I am mindful of and I did buy the Leaf Spy dongle, have to get the software and familiarize myself with it. At any rate, I think that being able to buy a two or three year old usable EV for what the cars are now bringing is a fantastic bargain and I can't wait to get one in my garage.

cwerdna said:

powersurge said:

There is nothing to discuss... Your are buying used.

Buy the car that you want that has everything... What is there to think about? A couple of bucks more or less?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

IMHO, that's pretty lousy advice.


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Lousy advice? If we have the hindsight to know all of the goodies that can go into a car and you can buy an "almost new car" USED, then buy the best equipped car you can find... No question...

If someone has to deeply consider things over a difference of $1k- $1.5K in the price to get the best car they can, then they are not real buyers, they are theoretical tire-kickers. If you make an issue on an extra $1k even when you are getting the car AT AUCTION, the you are not in a financial position to buy that car. I have been in other forums in the past, and I find it amusing how some lurkers or "theoretical buyers" can spend so much time analyzing small issues on options, debating akin to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". And you know what, most times they never buy...

In the Phoenix-Metro area, I would not want to be without QC. The area is a wide spread metropolitan area with lots of freeways too. Having the piece of mind that I can get a 15 to 30 minute charge, if needed, instead of waiting 2 and a half to 3 hours for L-2, is a game changer. My cars are viable for any range or distance, when there are QC stations available, without time limitations. I want a car that is as close to driving ICE as possible. I don't want to drive slower than traffic or without a/c or really be more inconvenienced at all! I do not want to take the time to charge at L2 stations.

That is where the Ford Focus EV doesn't measure up, IMHO for my climate, and it doesn't have QC port. But it has superior battery life because of active battery cooling.

In your area, I understand why heating is an important consideration.

I believe that there is not a great price difference between the models when buying them a few years or more from new. But... on resale, the more features it has, the easier it sells.

aarond12 said:

I might look at a Volt in your case.

There are a few red flags: 60 miles in the winter is pushing it, especially if your wife like the car warm. The range on a LEAF (really any car) drops significantly in the winter, not including the heat pump/resistive heater issue.

Click to expand...

Get the car with QC, you will not regret it. There are deals out there on 2013 cars with low mileage. In Chicago area I have seen cars with 5K miles being priced at $13K. There should be a lot of cars coming of lease and dealers can apply $5K if they want to purchase the car.

Anyway, as you figure it out I live in Chicago and commute daily 50 miles to and from work. We have had two bad winters and I mean bad winters with temps in 20 below range. The worse mileage I got was 74. In the first year I averaged 4.3 miles/KWh that included record breaking 26 days of temperatures below zero Fahrenheit (-17.7C), for the first time ever, 90% of Lake Michigan was covered in ice. it was one very long and cold winter.

So far in 2015 I am averaging 4.4 miles/kWh over 15K miles.

I bought my car on November 16 2013 and as of today I have 30K miles. The car is driven daily and I have no complaints. As a mater of fact, I liked it so much that few days ago instead of returning it at the end of the lease, I bought my car.

powersurge said:

There is nothing to discuss... Your are buying used.

Buy the car that you want that has everything... What is there to think about? A couple of bucks more or less?

Click to expand...

cwerdna said:

IMHO, that's pretty lousy advice.

Click to expand...

powersurge said:

Lousy advice? If we have the hindsight to know all of the goodies that can go into a car and you can buy an "almost new car" USED, then buy the best equipped car you can find... No question...

If someone has to deeply consider things over a difference of $1k- $1.5K in the price to get the best car they can, then they are not real buyers, they are theoretical tire-kickers. If you make an issue on an extra $1k even when you are getting the car AT AUCTION, the you are not in a financial position to buy that car. I have been in other forums in the past, and I find it amusing how some lurkers or "theoretical buyers" can spend so much time analyzing small issues on options, debating akin to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". And you know what, most times they never buy...

Click to expand...

Wow, way to project your views onto others and make assumptions.

Why the would I want to pay even more for an '13 SL w/premium when I don't like leather enough to pay for it and didn't care enough to pay for CHAdeMO inlet and fog lights that were part of the QC + LED package on an SV? In your mind, all buyers of 2-year old (or newer) Leaf lease returns should be buying SL w/premium package, huh?

I valued the premium package enough to be willing to pay for it since I LOVED the Around View Monitor and enjoyed the Bose stereo after having lived w/it for 2 years. I also lived w/the QC + LED package for 2 years and didn't value it enough to pay that much extra for it on a used Leaf. Yes, the LED headlights were nice but QC inlet was far from worth the extra $, for me.

I didn't get my car at auction. I have no dealer's license. The used car dealer I worked with does and got mine for me.

If I'd limited my choices to '13 SL with premium, that would've potentially meant fewer candidate cars. Also, franchise Nissan dealers apparently tend to scoop up the ones w/CHAdeMO inlet due to many used buyers having a perceived "need".

I bought my car and just because I didn't buy what you want or what you think people should spend/buy has nothing do w/my financial position. I have 0 debt, a job that pays very well and enough savings to buy dozens of used Leafs outright. But that doesn't mean I (nor everyone else) will buy what you think people "should" buy. Everyone has different wants, needs, priorities, requirements, budget/what they want to spend, infrastructure, location, commutes, etc.

Heard of the book "The Millionaire Next Door"?

If $1K to $1.5K is no big deal on a ~$9K to $13K car, you can send me $1K each time you buy a car. Or, volunteer to pay $1K extra each time you buy a car. That $ can buy a lot of things (e.g. I had an airplane ticket that I had to cancel in favor of another trip from SFO > Japan > South Korea > SFO wasn't even $1K. My hotel rooms for my almost 2 weeks in Japan recently added up to under $1K USD).

dea

powersurge said:

cwerdna said:

powersurge said:

There is nothing to discuss... Your are buying used.

Buy the car that you want that has everything... What is there to think about? A couple of bucks more or less?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

IMHO, that's pretty lousy advice.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Lousy advice? If we have the hindsight to know all of the goodies that can go into a car and you can buy an "almost new car" USED, then buy the best equipped car you can find... No question...

If someone has to deeply consider things over a difference of $1k- $1.5K in the price to get the best car they can, then they are not real buyers, they are theoretical tire-kickers. If you make an issue on an extra $1k even when you are getting the car AT AUCTION, the you are not in a financial position to buy that car. I have been in other forums in the past, and I find it amusing how some lurkers or "theoretical buyers" can spend so much time analyzing small issues on options, debating akin to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". And you know what, most times they never buy...

Click to expand...

Well sure, 1-1.5k is really not a huge difference but around my area the spread is at least that. Dealers asking around 13k for 2013 SV w/QC,
without QC can be had around 11k and if I look further out (GA/NC) an SV can be had closer to 10k. I already own 9 vehicles in my household so spending money on cars is nothing new to me.. Price aside, if the quick charge really had limited usefulness then my choice of vehicles is much better and if someone convinced me that the heater wasn't such a big deal then there are plenty of S models well under 10k right now. Even though I have owned a lot of vehicles in my life, I have never bought a new car, ever. Don't like the depreciation. I know one thing, if I buy a 2013 car now in five years it will be semi-obsolete and not worth much, thats just the way it is. And I have never financed a vehicle, I have always paid cash.

cwerdna said:

Heard of the book "The Millionaire Next Door"?

If $1K to $1.5K is no big deal on a ~$9K to $13K car, you can send me $1K each time you buy a car. Or, volunteer to pay $1K extra each time you buy a car. That $ can buy a lot of things (e.g. I had an airplane ticket that I had to cancel in favor of another trip from SFO > Japan > South Korea > SFO wasn't even $1K. My hotel rooms for my almost 2 weeks in Japan recently added up to under $1K USD).

Click to expand...

My wife and I are going to South America on Friday for some vacation, our airfare for both of us is not even 1.5k total
She is the queen of cheap flights, actually I guess we are both cheap haha. Probably why we aren't debt slaves and I'm semi-retired at 55..
To each his own, right?