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PotRoastMan

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2015
Messages
22
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Hi, i'm new here. Local dealer has 12 used LEAFs, 3 of which I would seriously consider. They are each 2012 model SL, mileage between 14-18k and priced $10-$11k. From what I've read, the 2013 has some nice upgrades and may be worth it, but their stock in 2013's is limited to two, one is the base S model and the other is SL with premium package for close to $14k (And, both have almost 30k miles). That is more than I want to spend, as well as more miles that I'd like to see.

I've read about this Leaf Spy app, but am not sure I can whip it out and plug it in on a dealer lot (especially, not having a leaf now to figure out how to set it up or what to look for). "Hey salesman, i'm going to sit here and plug this into your car and see if I can figure it out.. just come back in a half hour OK? Then i'll do it to your other cars too..." I don't think they'd be terrible cooperative about that. Is there a way for a dealership to give some kind of battery status instead, or is it simply that they can't be trusted (or, possibly they honestly don't understand it). Do I really need to be concerned with cars that have less than 20k miles on them? These are all off-lease cars, one is from Texas, another Ohio, and 3rd is New York. Would I expect the Texas car to have less "life" than the New York one just because of the climate?

I live in Minnesota, winters are long and cold. It will be below freezing for several months, and at least one or two weeks in January will be negative 20 degrees in the morning (potentially -30 but thats a rare day!). Are there issues here?

I'm probably 2-3 weeks away from making the decision... I thought I was ready and I knew all about the car and the models and the packages available, then I came here and lost my confidence! :) I thought I knew what I was looking for, but now i'm not sure how to pick the best choice out of a handful of cars, especially the three that are similar.
 
Running LeafSpy to check on the battery status is similar to opening the hood of a ICE car or looking at service history on the engine, checking out tires tread depths. It's your money, don't let it go without checking out all the options. If they grumble, let them, do not be bullied by a sales person. As soon as that happens to me at a dealership or used car lot, I'm gone.
 
PotRoastMan said:
Hi, i'm new here. Local dealer has 12 used LEAFs, 3 of which I would seriously consider. They are each 2012 model SL, mileage between 14-18k and priced $10-$11k. From what I've read, the 2013 has some nice upgrades and may be worth it, but their stock in 2013's is limited to two, one is the base S model and the other is SL with premium package for close to $14k (And, both have almost 30k miles). That is more than I want to spend, as well as more miles that I'd like to see.

I've read about this Leaf Spy app, but am not sure I can whip it out and plug it in on a dealer lot (especially, not having a leaf now to figure out how to set it up or what to look for). "Hey salesman, i'm going to sit here and plug this into your car and see if I can figure it out.. just come back in a half hour OK? Then i'll do it to your other cars too..." I don't think they'd be terrible cooperative about that. Is there a way for a dealership to give some kind of battery status instead, or is it simply that they can't be trusted (or, possibly they honestly don't understand it). Do I really need to be concerned with cars that have less than 20k miles on them? These are all off-lease cars, one is from Texas, another Ohio, and 3rd is New York. Would I expect the Texas car to have less "life" than the New York one just because of the climate?

I live in Minnesota, winters are long and cold. It will be below freezing for several months, and at least one or two weeks in January will be negative 20 degrees in the morning (potentially -30 but thats a rare day!). Are there issues here?

I'm probably 2-3 weeks away from making the decision... I thought I was ready and I knew all about the car and the models and the packages available, then I came here and lost my confidence! :) I thought I knew what I was looking for, but now i'm not sure how to pick the best choice out of a handful of cars, especially the three that are similar.
Click to expand...
Regarding the Texas cars, they are exposed to a much greater heat and sun intensity to cook the batteries. If it is a dark color, skip it too.
http://phys.org/news/2011-10-silver-white-cars-cooler.html
LeafSpy isn't too hard. You just plug the adapter into the port of the car beneath the steering wheel, push the power button. It goes towards the firewall. Then pair it to bluetooth and open the app tap the ... to select the adapter. You tap the lower left corner of the app to cycle through the screens. You can freeze it or take a screenshot with the information you want. The Play Store has a good description. I purchased the adapter he suggested and it worked.
Check OrientExpress posts regarding 11/12 vs. 13 and up.
 
Make friends with a local LEAF owner, preferably one with a LEAF Spy setup already or one who is willing to let you setup and become comfortable with your own LEAF Spy gear on his car. It's not like there is much to setup, and there is only one screen you really need to read to get all the information necessary in making an informed decision, but getting to the point where the ODBII transmitter and the app will communicate and pair can be a bit arduous (and definitely frustrating for a waiting salesperson). However, once the initial setup is done, any car can be read within seconds of plugging the transmitter into the OBDII port; starting the car; and pulling up the app on your phone.
 
Getting the app working is one thing, knowing what to look for is another. Is there a post that describes what to look for once I have the app opened up?

I see the wiki that has the leaf spy "user guide" and that describes what the pictures mean. I am guessing the one that shows all 96 cells is the one I'm looking for, and the 'lite' version will be fine for this initial check-out. Assuming I can get that far, what am I looking for? Basically, what fields/values are acceptable and at what point should it be concerning?

Anybody in MN? I have not actually seen one of these out on the road around here!
 
PotRoastMan said:
Hi, i'm new here. Local dealer has 12 used LEAFs, 3 of which I would seriously consider. They are each 2012 model SL, mileage between 14-18k and priced $10-$11k. From what I've read, the 2013 has some nice upgrades and may be worth it, but their stock in 2013's is limited to two, one is the base S model and the other is SL with premium package for close to $14k (And, both have almost 30k miles). That is more than I want to spend, as well as more miles that I'd like to see.
Click to expand...

There is a paradigm shift involved in buying a (used) Leaf: it's not about the miles, it's about the condition of the battery. I'm convinced a Leaf could go for multiple 100k miles if not for battery degradation; even the brakes will last > 100k miles. I would never advise anyone to buy a used Leaf without some sort of battery capacity check (AHr reading), especially if it's pre-2015. Having said that, there's some great opportunities out there to buy used Leafs that will qualify for a (free) warranty battery pack replacement.
 
PotRoastMan said:
Getting the app working is one thing, knowing what to look for is another. Is there a post that describes what to look for once I have the app opened up?

I see the wiki that has the leaf spy "user guide" and that describes what the pictures mean. I am guessing the one that shows all 96 cells is the one I'm looking for, and the 'lite' version will be fine for this initial check-out. Assuming I can get that far, what am I looking for? Basically, what fields/values are acceptable and at what point should it be concerning?

Anybody in MN? I have not actually seen one of these out on the road around here!
Click to expand...
SOH, AHR
My SOH is 97-98% after 1300 miles. Look at the signature info under many posts. Especially the ones with capacity bar loss.
 
PotRoastMan said:
Getting the app working is one thing, knowing what to look for is another. Is there a post that describes what to look for once I have the app opened up?

I see the wiki that has the leaf spy "user guide" and that describes what the pictures mean. I am guessing the one that shows all 96 cells is the one I'm looking for, and the 'lite' version will be fine for this initial check-out. Assuming I can get that far, what am I looking for? Basically, what fields/values are acceptable and at what point should it be concerning?

Anybody in MN? I have not actually seen one of these out on the road around here!
Click to expand...

Lite will be fine, and yes you will be looking at the screen showing the shunting of the 96 cells. Specifically you're looking for the AHr reading from the car:

66.25AHr = approximate AHr value of a brand new 2011-2013 LEAF battery pack
54AHr-55.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 12 occurs
50AHr-51.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 11 occurs
46AHr-47.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 10 occurs
42AHr-43.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 9 occurs
 
Is the 2013 much better than the 2012? I see lot of battery complaints about the 11/12 model years, but not much about the 13. Is it just that the class action was on the 11/12 and 13 is newer, or did they actually fix something in 13? To phrase it another way, if i'm buying a used LEAF should I be wary of the 2012's and older?
 
PotRoastMan said:
Is the 2013 much better than the 2012? I see lot of battery complaints about the 11/12 model years, but not much about the 13. Is it just that the class action was on the 11/12 and 13 is newer, or did they actually fix something in 13? To phrase it another way, if i'm buying a used LEAF should I be wary of the 2012's and older?
Click to expand...

We don't know it for a fact, but the evidence suggests that Nissan changed the battery structure and/or chemistry a bit when they moved production to Tennessee. The 2013 packs seem to be holding up better than the 2011-2012 packs. They aren't as good as the 2015 and up packs, but I'd definitely consider a 2013 over a Japan-built Leaf if range were a significant factor. My 2013 has been through two surprisingly hot Summers, three Summers total, and still has 12 bars. I don't have leaf Spy, bu even if I lose a bar tomorrow I'll have done better than most Gen I leaf drivers in similar climates.
 
PotRoastMan said:
Is the 2013 much better than the 2012? I see lot of battery complaints about the 11/12 model years, but not much about the 13. Is it just that the class action was on the 11/12 and 13 is newer, or did they actually fix something in 13? To phrase it another way, if i'm buying a used LEAF should I be wary of the 2012's and older?
Click to expand...

I would say the people who got free battery packs for 2011 or 2012 in hot zones didn't have to trade in for a 2013 or 2014.

I'd also say we don't have enough data on the 2013 packs. Some of the data we do have suggests it no better than the 2012 packs but there are those that think there is a split and some 2013 packs are better than other 2013 packs.

All in all we can't rely on Nissan to tell us the truth as they were way off on degradation predictions and promises for the 2011/2012 packs and it takes several summers to know how bad a pack will be.

Buy a cheap used Leaf if you can, but don't expect to avoid degradation. Even the 2015 packs which are known to be better show degradation in hot climates.

Be sure you know what range you need and how you'd deal with it if the car had 20% to 50% less range than you expect it to start out with (assuming you are buying to keep for the long term).
 
PotRoastMan said:
To phrase it another way, if i'm buying a used LEAF should I be wary of the 2012's and older?
Click to expand...

The great thing about the 2011-2012 is that the battery is so terrible, it's more likely you can find one that qualifies for a replacement under warranty. If this is the case, you can pay $8,000 for the car and get a free battery that will last the life of the car. Your goal when buying used should be to find the battery with the worst degradation (preferably one that already qualifies for a free battery replacement but hasn't been done yet).

The original battery is not good on the 2011-2012, it's not bad on the 2013-2014, and it's much better on the 2015. But 2013 offered more improvements than just the battery. A few nice things available in 2013+:

1) 6kW charger
2) Heat pump
3) B Mode
4) 17" wheels
5) Charge port light, lock, and remote control
6) Leather seats

Also keep in mind that if you go 2011, you probably won't get heated steering wheel or a heated battery. Also, in 2013, they deleted the electric e-brake and e-adjustable headlights, iirc.

Find the car with the absolute worst or best battery. Don't go middle of the road when it comes to battery health.
 
Besides the battery condition, what are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

PotRoastMan said:
I live in Minnesota, winters are long and cold. It will be below freezing for several months, and at least one or two weeks in January will be negative 20 degrees in the morning (potentially -30 but thats a rare day!). Are there issues here?
Click to expand...
Yes in the sense that the extreme cold will temporarily reduce capacity and also means you'll need to run the heater, which will further reduce range. And the '11 and '12 have a power pig slow resistive heater.

And, you'll some reduced range due to slush and snow on the road.

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.
 
PotRoastMan said:
... I live in Minnesota, winters are long and cold. It will be below freezing for several months, and at least one or two weeks in January will be negative 20 degrees in the morning (potentially -30 but thats a rare day!). Are there issues here?
...
Click to expand...
In my opinion if you live where it gets cold and you like the car heated you need the heat pump that comes on the 2013 forward SV and SL.

See comment from someone that had both:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=15108&hilit=heat+pump&start=10#p344839

But it is only more efficient down to 0F.

Below that it is all resistive heat just like the 2011 and 2012 and 2013S forward.

But more efficient between 60F and 0F still makes a big difference.

But when it is below 0F and you have some capacity loss, if you like heat the LEAF is at best a 30 to 35 mile range vehicle.

Will that work for you or do you have something else to drive when it is very cold :?:
 
But it is only more efficient down to 0F.

Below that it is all resistive heat just like the 2011 and 2012 and 2013S forward.
Click to expand...

While the heatpump may still be working down to 0F (or is it 5F?) you won't notice much difference below about 15F. The resistance heater will be doing nearly all the work. The heatpump's most effective operating range is anything above about 25F. I do agree, though, that you want the heatpump (AKA "Hybrid") heating system.
 
Having owned both an early 2011 and now a 2015 SL, I have a few observations:

The early 2011s did not have heated seats and heated steering wheel. More importantly, the ones without heated seats also do not have the low-wattage heater that protects the traction battery from freezing in extremely cold temperatures. The 2012s and later came standard with the "cold weather package" which includes the battery heater, heated seats, and heated steering wheel. The 2011 and 2012 models have a small hot water tank under the hood and a conventional heater core in the dash to provide heat. This works, but it takes a lot of power and requires some time for the liquid to heat. Since the water tank and fluid lines are not insulated, heat is lost to ambient. The 2013 and later models have a dry-type resistance heater in the dash so the heat is almost instantaneous and there is no water tank losing heat under the hood. The 2013 and later SV and SL models have a heat pump in addition to the dry resistance heater to increase heating efficiency in moderate temperatures. Therefore, a 2013 or later SV or SL would be best for your climate.

The "lizard" battery in the 2015 survived its first summer much better than the original and replacement batteries in the 2011, but it is still too soon to know how well it retains its capacity in the long run. As others have noted, there appear to have been some battery chemistry changes starting in 2013, but Nissan has not provided reliable information regarding the changes except to claim that the 2015s have improvements for longevity in hot weather.

A Leaf can work for you in your climate if you can live with range between charges of only 30 miles (maybe even less) in cold temperatures and 55 miles in moderate temperatures once the battery has significant deterioration.

Gerry
 
PotRoastMan said:
Hi, i'm new here. Local dealer has 12 used LEAFs, 3 of which I would seriously consider. ..
Click to expand...
Do you know how much a new one costs? With dealer incentives of $5K not uncommon, $5K NMAC cash, and $7.5k federal tax credit, you should be able to buy a new one for not much more than a used one. Email and call different dealers, get two to bid against each other, and you will end up with a great deal. If you can't find a great deal in your area, dealers in the SF bay area will ship cars for about $800. I believe Nissan offers greater deals in California because of the zero emission requirements.
 
mwalsh said:
Lite will be fine, and yes you will be looking at the screen showing the shunting of the 96 cells. Specifically you're looking for the AHr reading from the car:

66.25AHr = approximate AHr value of a brand new 2011-2013 LEAF battery pack
54AHr-55.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 12 occurs
50AHr-51.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 11 occurs
46AHr-47.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 10 occurs
42AHr-43.5AHr = expected AHr range at which loss of bar 9 occurs
Click to expand...


This should be a sticky!

We spent hours upon hours going through 3 year old battery threads with no clear instructions on what to look for; the wiki has screenshots that have different terminology than the current version! Its all a little overwhelming, and I'm fairly proficient with technical electrical.

This is the first concise "Here's what you need to look at" post I've found. Thank you!
 
Longest commute would be about 25 miles each way, 50 daily. But only three days/wk (work from home other days). I think about 1/3 of that would be city, 2/3 highway 65-70mph. Winter is probably slower than that due to conditions and increased traffic. I do not think there is a charger at work currently. In the coldest months we'd use the other car (Prius), and the leaf would be local short trips only, 5 miles typically.

This would replace a current car that gets less than 20mpg, we drive it very limited today (4000 miles annually), and the Prius we drive about 10,000 annually. So between two cars, we're no more than 14,000. I suspect we would drive a Leaf 10,000 miles annually.
 
Given your commute, you should be looking at leasing a new Leaf. Failing that, I suggest you limit your choices to 2013 and up SV or SL models with 12 bars. A Gen 1 Leaf won't make that commute easily, and maybe not at all, in Winter.
 

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