Advice on a used 2013 Leaf for San Jose - Palo Alto commute

I've been driving a leased Chevy Volt for the last 2 years. It's been great. I plug into my regular wall outlet when I get home at 7pm and hop in the car and leave for work with a full charge the next day around 9:00am.

I do a 42 mile round-trip Bay Area commute from San Jose to Palo Alto. I use highways 87 & 280 for most of it (bumper to bumper parking lot during rush hour but some days I get lucky and can do 40-60mph).

I make it to work and back with between 1-8 miles of charge left on the volts battery almost every time.

My wife's car is a dying 11yr old Subaru.

I'm thinking of giving her the Volt and getting a used 2013 Leaf SV. But everything I'm reading about battery degradation, super long charge times, and best practice being to charge the battery to only 80% have me wondering if a Leaf would work for my commute at all.

First of all will 14 hours of charge from my regular outlet give it the at least 55 miles of charge I'd want to feel comfortable leaving the house?

Having a level 2 station installed sounds like it wouldn't cost too much. And from what I understand both my Volt and Leaf could use the same station (just not at the same time) but then I read using it on a daily basis will damage the Leafs batteries unless I set up a complicated charging schedule that takes into account battery cool down, etc.

This all sounds crazy to me because I haven't had to worry about any of this with my Volt. I don't worry about where I park (sun or shade). I don't worry about when I plug it in. And I certainly don't think twice about charging it to "100%" and driving it down to zero every single day.

After two years and 26,000 miles it still performs better than the 38 mile range that was advertised.

By contrast I see lots of tales here of Leafs with 30,000 miles with 2-3 lost bars and a chart that tells me at 4 bars (the point T which Nissan is willing to do warranty replacement) the battery is only good for effectively 47 miles.

I'm not trying to Leaf bash or sell Volts.

Leaf prices are tempting right now. i've found a wealth of information on this site but honestly it's a lot to process and I'm not sure I've interpreted it all correctly.

The only thing I'm clear on is the Leaf is clearly a very different animal than the Volt.

I badly need a replacement for our rusted out ICE wagon. I'd love it if the Leaf could work for my commute as at present it seems like my only option for keeping us a 2 car household without breaking the bank.

Anyone have any experience with a similar commute in my area? Can I make it work and back or am I pushing the boundaries a bit too much?

Dashv said:

I'm thinking of giving her the Volt and getting a used 2013 Leaf SV. But everything I'm reading about battery degradation, super long charge times, and best practice being to charge the battery to only 80% have me wondering if a Leaf would work for my commute at all.

Click to expand...

By "super long charge times", at 120 volts, to put about the same amount of energy into the battery on a Leaf isn't significantly different than the Volt. And, from what I understand, the Leaf is more efficient as a BEV than the Volt is (more miles per kWh, all else being equal).

The Volt is the slow poke at level 2 w/its 3.3 kW OBC. At work, on our 208 volt L2 Chargepoint EVSEs, they pull ~3.1 kW, whereas my Leaf pulls 5.7 to 6.0 kW. If my Leaf is charging at full tilt (which is the case all the way up to about 98% SoC), in a given amount of time, about 2x as much energy has been pulled from the wall by my Leaf as that of a Volt that I've started a session for.

Dashv said:

First of all will 14 hours of charge from my regular outlet give it the at least 55 miles of charge I'd want to feel comfortable leaving the house?

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Don't know for certain. How many "miles of charge" you get ultimately depends on your efficiency. You can get an idea of efficiency on level ground w/no HVAC usage at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293, depending on speed.

If we assume only 1 kWh makes it into the battery for each hour of charging at 120 volts, then 14 kWh got added to the battery. If you average (per the dash display) 4 miles/kWh, then 56 miles would've been added.

Dashv said:

Having a level 2 station installed sounds like it wouldn't cost too much. And from what I understand both my Volt and Leaf could use the same station (just not at the same time)

Click to expand...

Yes, unless you get something like https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/Hydra.

Dashv said:

but then I read using it on a daily basis will damage the Leafs batteries unless I set up a complicated charging schedule that takes into account battery cool down, etc.

Click to expand...

Not sure where you get that idea from. In theory, you don't want to leave the car at high SoC (e.g. 100%) for too long. But the Leaf's "100%" isn't actually 100%. There's some inaccessible amount at the top and bottom.

Dashv said:

This all sounds crazy to me because I haven't had to worry about any of this with my Volt. I don't worry about where I park (sun or shade). I don't worry about when I plug it in. And I certainly don't think twice about charging it to "100%" and driving it down to zero every single day.

Click to expand...

You probably should've worried somewhat, from http://gm-volt.com/2013/05/03/volt-battery-thermal-management-system-in-the-hot-arizona-sun/, it looks like the battery thermal management doesn't do anything when the Volt's not plugged in and not in READY mode.

But, the Volt leaves uses a much smaller % of the pack's usable capacity than the Leaf.

Your commute should be doable in a '13 Leaf originally from the Bay Area for quite awhile, at least during the bumper to bumper. I live in the South Bay and have some idea about your commute. 87 north most certainly sucks during rush hour.

BTW, don't overpay for a used Leaf. See my posts at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=431427#p431427 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825. Their resale value is lousy, which is good for the buyer.

Excellent reply and great follow up links for me! Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

The Leaf I'm considering is a 2013 SV with all 12 bars, 28k miles, and all options included for about $10k.

Looked like a good deal to me.

Dashv said:

By contrast I see lots of tales here of Leafs with 30,000 miles with 2-3 lost bars and a chart that tells me at 4 bars (the point T which Nissan is willing to do warranty replacement) the battery is only good for effectively 47 miles.

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BTW, the capacity warranty is only 5 years/60K miles. Unfortunately, I don't think many cars here in the South Bay will end up losing their 4th bar before that time (unless they're say in Gilroy or Morgan Hill, for example). Some So Cal folks have, and TomT (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14102&p=434373#p434373) lost his VERY close to 60K miles. He had it towed to the dealer once he hit that. :mrgreen:

I'm not sure where you get 47 miles from. EPA rated range at 100% charge is 84 miles (see below). But it's going to vary depending on your driving efficiency (see aforementioned range chart). So, a Leaf w/70% remaining capacity should get about 58.8 miles on the EPA test cycle. But, this is probably of no help to you due to my earlier statement.

http://insideevs.com/2013-nissan-leaf-rated-at-75-miles-but-84-miles-using-the-old-system/
http://insideevs.com/2014-nissan-leaf-mostly-unchanged-as-range-technically-moves-up-to-84-miles/

I got 47 miles from that range chart. Assuming a loss of 4 bars and only charging to 80%.

Perhaps I am reading the chart wrong?

Dashv said:

I got 47 miles from that range chart. Assuming a loss of 4 bars and only charging to 80%.

Perhaps I am reading the chart wrong?

Click to expand...

Hmm, I'm looking at the 60-66% capacity, 8 of 1 2 capacity bars chart. If you charge to 80%, it should stop at either 9 or 10 bars. I've found this varies, sometimes.

So, a 4 bar loser charged to 80%, if you averaged 6.3 miles/kWh (also achieved by going 35 mph on level ground w/no rain, HVAC, etc.), you could probably get 62 to 67 miles of range (I'd toss the 73 miles, to be on the safe side). If you averaged only 3.0 miles/kWh, your range would probably be 28 to 32 miles.

Don't charge to only 80%. Or... eventually, if things become too dicey, you will have no choice but to charge to something beyond 80%, possibly even 100%.

Nissan ended up removing the charge to 80% choice on '14+ Leafs... :roll: Lots of discussion at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=15526 and elsewhere.

So tell us why you aren't considering a used volt for ~$13k? Get a used car loan, that won't break the bank.

Sounds like volt owners have figured out how to be successful with their cars. For me personally, the jury is still out. I've been lurking here and on the volt forum for a while, listening, learning and watching the used market.

I like the simplicity of the Leaf but I'm a westerner. While most days I stay local, there's big country to cross when I need to. So the stock in my corral has to be able to make it to distant watering holes. Still, a leaf might work considering other mounts we could saddle up.

If I could find a volt in my area for that price I'd jump on it.

That said, I took the plunge today and came home with a 2013 Leaf SV with 16k miles on it.

I like the way it handles and the overall visibility is much better than my Volt.

Now I am just trying to figure out if this:

http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=25

Will let me charge both my Volt and my Leaf from my unused 30amp 240 dryer outlet...

Dashv said:

Now I am just trying to figure out if this:

http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=25

Will let me charge both my Volt and my Leaf from my unused 30amp 240 dryer outlet...

Click to expand...

Or you could just upgrade the '13 Leaf's brick: http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2.

Dashv said:

...That said, I took the plunge today and came
home with a 2013 Leaf SV with 16k miles on it...

Click to expand...

Since you have the LEAF and are used to being able to drive the Volt to zero charge, be aware that you still have plenty of range in the LEAF when you get to "Low Battery Warning" (LBW) and "Very Low Battery Warning" (VLBW), the second warning. In general, you can get about half the number of miles from VLBW to turtle than you can get from LBW to VLBW. So, don't be afraid to go to VLBW, it won't hurt anything. Drive with the %SOC display up on your dash and get a feel for how many % it takes to make various trips.

Do drive the LEAF down to VLBW on purpose to get a feel for how much range you have below LBW. It is very helpful to know that you still have lots of miles left and people who stop at LBW leave a lot of the range unused. The reason I mention this is that as the battery continues to decline in capacity over time, the LBW and VLBW benchmarks remain at fixed charge levels. So, those thresholds will become a larger percentage of the total battery capacity as the battery degrades. If you don't use the lower part of the battery charge your range will seem to shrink faster than it really is. Some people don't know this.

Don't limit your charging to 80% if you need 100%. Many of those here charge to 100% every day (I'm charging to 100% right now because I have a long trip to make). The general rule is don't leave the car at 100% for a long time; a few hours is ok. One way to do that is to set a charge timer (you have two) for "end time only" so that it finishes about the time your are going to leave (it actually finishes a half hour to an hour early most of the time). Then you just drive off with a full charge. One downside of 100% charging is no regen braking for the first few miles.

Be sure to increase the tire pressure to at least 40-42 psi (cold). The Nissan recommended 36 psi is too low (long story). This will help with mileage efficiency and tire life.

Just some suggestions.

We've just had a 2011 with a brand new "Lizard" battery pack posted to the Private For Sale section. $10,500 selling price, plus maybe ~$500 to have it shipped to the Bay Area, makes it well worth consideration, IMHO.

cwerdna said:

Dashv said:

Now I am just trying to figure out if this:

http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=25

Will let me charge both my Volt and my Leaf from my unused 30amp 240 dryer outlet...

Click to expand...

Or you could just upgrade the '13 Leaf's brick: http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2.

Click to expand...

Once upgraded it would work with both my 2013 Leaf SV and my 2014 Volt?

Just found out from the folks that run the upgrade service. The answer is Yes! It will work with both!

I have another silly question.

I unfortunately did not receive an owners manual with the car.

What do the bars on the LEFT hand side mean? And should I be concerned if they do not go all the way up to the top even when the car is at full charge?

Dashv said:

Just found out from the folks that run the upgrade service. The answer is Yes! It will work with both!

I have another silly question.

I unfortunately did not relieve an owners manual with the car.

What do the bars on the LEFT hand side mean? And should I be concerned if they do not go all the way up to the top even when the car is at full charge?

Click to expand...

Ten or twenty seconds' worth of Googling should get you to a downloadable .pdf version of the LEAF owner's manual for your model year.

But in the meantime, the left-hand bar graph depicts battery temperature, as somewhere between "too cold" and "too hot". Having five or six bars show up is ideal.

Hundreds of people are using the Leaf on much longer commutes than yours- in your area !, which is quite short- with no problems.
I suggest that you go to YouTube.. where there is a good video of a guy in Tennesee who has LONG commute, and drives like a banshee
( 85 in the slow lane ). With no problems, and only charges at home.

120 volt only charging is really silly. Not expensive to use 240v Level 2.

Now.. there is an easy and cheap solution that will get your charge time into the 4 hour range. That is to use EVSE Upgrade.com' conversion of your existing Nissan portable charger. This cost $269... and lets you plug it into 240 v outlet ( it retains its slow 120v capability). If you already have a 240 outlet ( dryer for instance)... you don't need any electrician .

Another good option is to look here and on craigslist and find a used " charger" ... that operates on 240 votls.
Aka a level 2 charger... I have seen them for $100. Anything that says Hard Wired Only.. can actually have a cord wired to it.. and be used as a plug in. But usually, adding a 240 v outlet or wiring at, or close to, your main panel is easy and cheap. Couple of hundred dollars should cover labor and materials.. I am buying a used leaf also.. cant afford anything else. I will be doing exactly what I described. Really, unless you live in a condo or an apartment.. you should not have any problem. This isn't any harder than installing a light.

Levenkay said:

Dashv said:

Just found out from the folks that run the upgrade service. The answer is Yes! It will work with both!

I have another silly question.

I unfortunately did not relieve an owners manual with the car.

What do the bars on the LEFT hand side mean? And should I be concerned if they do not go all the way up to the top even when the car is at full charge?

Click to expand...

Ten or twenty seconds' worth of Googling should get you to a downloadable .pdf version of the LEAF owner's manual for your model year.

But in the meantime, the left-hand bar graph depicts battery temperature, as somewhere between "too cold" and "too hot". Having five or six bars show up is ideal.

Click to expand...

My son happened to find the manual under the passenger seat. But I also did happen to find the pdf of it online.

My EVSE arrived today. Rather than have mine upgraded I just got an open box new one.

Charging from my dryer outlet is awesome! The Volt goes from empty to full in 3 hours!

Now we can easily charge both cars in one night!

My wife is loving the Leaf. I'll be doing my Palo Alto run on Friday. My wife recommends I do the drive on ECO mode, but I'm gonna try it without.

Should be fine.

Easily made the work commute from San Jose to Palo Alto and back today (with additional stops to pick up food and do some thrift store wandering).

The Leaf held up just fine. Pulled into my garage with 37 miles of charge remaining.

The Leaf charges plenty fast enough with the upgraded cable.

My wife and I are enjoying our first week with 2 electric cars. So far we don't mind the "musical cars" routine to keep them both charged.

Not sure yet if I prefer Chevy or Nissan's phone app. Both are pretty decent.

I wish there was a way to turn off the warning sound when you get out of the car and the headlights are on.

Since the car turns them off after less than a minute the warning is both annoying and pointless.

I see other people on the Internet (in these forums actually) complaining about it but I don't see any way to turn it of.

Small annoyance to be sure. Having a good experience over all thus far.

Dashv said:

The Leaf held up just fine. Pulled into my garage with 37 miles of charge remaining.

Click to expand...

Don't go by the GOM. You are far better off going by the % SoC display. And, if you want to ride around near the bottom, you'd better get Leaf Spy.

Dashv said:

I wish there was a way to turn off the warning sound when you get out of the car and the headlights are on.

Since the car turns them off after less than a minute the warning is both annoying and pointless.

Click to expand...

Just turn off the headlights. I don't leave them on and don't want to depend on the auto shut off actually working.

I don't like driving in Eco. The car feels way too sluggish and it really doesn't help much.

cwerdna said:

Dashv said:

The Leaf held up just fine. Pulled into my garage with 37 miles of charge remaining.

Click to expand...

Don't go by the GOM. You are far better off going by the % SoC display. And, if you want to ride around near the bottom, you'd better get Leaf Spy.

Dashv said:

I wish there was a way to turn off the warning sound when you get out of the car and the headlights are on.

Since the car turns them off after less than a minute the warning is both annoying and pointless.

Click to expand...

Just turn off the headlights. I don't leave them on and don't want to depend on the auto shut off actually working.

I don't like driving in Eco. The car feels way too sluggish and it really doesn't help much.

Click to expand...

I don't plan on driving the leaf below 20 miles remaining.

Turning headlights on/off is annoying. I don't do a lot of night driving so I forget to turn them on because every car I've had the last 10 years turns them on/off automatically for me.

I agree about Eco. If I wanted something that drove like a Subaru I would have bought another Subaru.

I bought leaf spy pro already but soon learned my trusty GoPoint Bluetooth dongle is not compatible with the leaf because the pin layout is different or something.

Got lost trying to figure out for certain what to get that would actually work.

Dashv said:

I don't plan on driving the leaf below 20 miles remaining.

Click to expand...

I recommend that you really don't bother w/the GOM: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=271853#p271853.

Dashv said:

I bought leaf spy pro already but soon learned my trusty GoPoint Bluetooth dongle is not compatible with the leaf because the pin layout is different or something.

Click to expand...

I don't know anything about that dongle. See http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Leaf_Battery_Application#Clone_ELM327_Bluetooth_Scanner. This is for the Android version of Leaf Spy.

iOS devices will instead need a wi-fi dongle. I've never tried that and don't care right now since the Android version works for me. I remember reading a complaint (possible on Facebook) is that the issue w/using a wi-fi OBD2 dongle means that once you're connected via wi-fi, iOS tries to do all Internet access thru that dongle, which has no Internet access. So, you can't surf, receive push alerts, check email, etc. while connected.