Help me decide on a Leaf!

My wife and I have been researching the Leaf on and off since about 2013 and we think we're ready to grab one. Her commute is about 2 miles one-way during the school year, and while we put on a lot of miles on average (15-17,000 a year) most of those are to and from work, groceries, etc.. Rarely do we exceed 15-20 miles (one way) in any given day and we have a second car - a minivan - for longer trips. We'd be private party selling or trading in our 2009 Sienna and paying cash for the rest.

We're looking at the following three options at this time:

- a 2012 SL with very minor body work (a very minor 'scrape' - just enough to scratch a small bit of paint off - clearly a low speed incident) for about $12,500. Full battery bars. Local (non-Nissan) dealer.

- a 2013 SV, lease return at a Nissan dealer. Nissan certified. Listed at 14,500 but I suspect we could talk 'em down 500-1000. Full battery bars.

- a 2015 S. New, Nissan Dealer (100 miles away, however). Includes $5K towards financing, etc.. but we'd pay cash outright. They claim to want about $14,000 for it. Several other _new_ 2015s in a similar price range, but they are all S models.

About our climate: we live in (the South part of) Wisconsin. Vehicle would be garaged and trickle charged - it's not too likely we'd get a level-2 charger.


Notes: the 'hump' in the middle of the floor of the second-row seating is much more pronounced in the 2013+ models. Crash test scores are also slightly better in the 2012, however the range (both battery and due to the hybrid heater in the nicer 2013+ models) is improved 2013+. And, of course, all things being equal generally the newer models are more likely to hold value.

We have test-driven several Leaf models (2013 S and 2012 SL) and we loved 'em both, but the 2012's very slightly nicer second-row seating, better crash-test scores, and (possible) better build quality over the 2013's is compelling.

We also understand that when the "new" Leaf comes out that will likely destroy the used market for older Leafs. So long as the "bottom" of the used-car market doesn't drop below $5,000 within the next 3-4 years then we are OK with that.

With respect to the "S" vs "SV/SL":
I'm not sure we care about Carwings, and I'm not sure if the alloy wheels make much difference either. Cruise is a nice-to-have. The nicer backup camera is a win to be sure, and the 6.6 kw charger likely doesn't make much difference either. The hybrid heater is probably a nice win, but for 1/2 of the trips in the cold the vehicle will be coming from a garage (not heated, but very very rarely drops below freezing, despite subzero outdoor temps). The auto headlights are nice. I do want to be able to - periodically - hit the car with a CHADEMO charge (I'm told it's good for 'em every once in a while). I would really like to be able to limit the day-to-day charge to 80% if that is possible.


I found this: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=14080
and it's just perfect. Other than the Hybrid heater I suspect an 'S' would do just great for us.

Sorry for the long initial post, I'm trying to be complete (a habit I have from my work).

Edit: typos.

The price difference seems so small that I would go with the newest one. In WI there has to be a rest stop, restaurant or something with a plug in those 100 miles where you can charge up for a few hours. Another Nissan dealer? People in upper Midwest are not the buttheads you see in the rest of the country that would turn you away.

I can't speak to your local market, by from an SF Bay Area point of view, the '12 SL and '13 SV are *WAY* too high in price. How many miles do each of them have? Have you checked Autotrader and Craigslist for your area?

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825. I paid $9,325 + tax and license for a '13 SV w/premium package (no QC + LED package) w/just under 24K miles. Went into service it appears 6/22/13. Build month was 5/2013. Title was clean. I can PM you the VIN, if you'd like.

I posted about another w/the same equipment but w/color and condition not to my liking at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=429492#p429492. It was advertised for $10,500 and went for that. Both this and the one I bought have all the capacity bars.

As I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430552#p430552, that used car dealer said if I wanted a '13 SV w/premium AND QC + LED packages, it'd probably cost me $11K to $11.5K.

Does the '13 SV have a CHAdeMO inlet (quick charge + LED headlight package)? There will be a large inlet to the left of the J1772 inlet, if it does. See about halfway down http://sfbayleafs.org/commentary/2013/09/2013-vs-2011-nissan-leaf-whats-new-whats-gone-whats-changed/. Also, the QC + LED headlight package includes fog lights and auto on/off headlights (will be an extra position on the headlight control for auto).

Re: the '15 S new, is it really $14K? Or is it $14K AFTER you've factored in the $7500 Federal tax credit? I doubt it's $14K before tax credit, tax and license.

For my use cases, totally disagree about "6.6 kw charger likely doesn't make much difference either". See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430047#p430047. I laugh inside whenever I start a session for a Volt and see how slowly it charges by how long it take to pull say 10 kWh out of the wall, vs. my car. On the 208 volt L2 EVSEs at my work, the Volts only pull ~3.1 kW out of the wall vs. 5.7 to 6.0 kW for my Leaf.

However, if you charge only overnight (on a 16 amp or less L2 EVSE) or 120 volts, then yeah, 6.x kW OBC won't help. It does help if you opportunity charge on L2 EVSEs of over 16 amps. Most public one are 30 amp. It also helps if it's a 30+ amp EVSE and they charge $ by time, and not kWh.

You'll want the hybrid heater, iMHO. Forget the '12. it'll have more calendar losses on the battery, if all else is equal, the lame power hungry resistive heater which people say takes minutes to heat (vs. heat by the time I back of my driveway on my '13 SV) and lame 3.x kW OBC.

I also suspect the '12 doesn't have all the capacity bars unless it resided in a mild climate (e.g. Seattle area or Oregon) or you're not reading it right or someone reset the BMS. http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11/buyers-beware-this-is-must-read.html and http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/12/update-saga-of-vin-222-resolved.html aren't the only cases of this happening.

'15 S should come w/cruise control. It got added on '15 S: http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2015-nissan-leaf-press-kit and http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/30/2015-nissan-leaf-gets-minor-updates/.

I don't care for the S, as I wouldn't want the crap stereo and do like having notifications of charging stopped/ended via Carwings and being able to check charge remotely and preheat/cool via phone. Also, setting charging/climate control timers on the S is a pain due to lack of touchscreen.

Also, I don't know where in WI you live, but per http://www.plugshare.com/, there seems to be very little CHAdeMO infrastructure in WI. In southern WI, I see 1 in Madison and maybe 5 in/around Milwaukee.

It appears you have a good perspective of the limits of the product. However, experience tells me putting 15K-17K miles/year on a LEAF without L2 charging will be a challenge. The usage cycle described sound ideal for a LEAF especially with a 2nd gasoline vehicle. The critical constraint is recovery time on L1 (3-4% of capacity per hour). Even a lower-amperage L2 will greatly enhance your ownership experience. One additional consideration is the LEAF can be so cheap to operate that it gets driven a lot more while the other car sits.

Also understand that cold weather requires substantially more energy if you like heat and keeping the windshield clear of ice & snow. Make sure the older used choices have the heated seats, steering wheel and battery heater. The hybrid heatpump system in my SV is great most of the time but has issues in cold & damp situations and becomes useless at temps below freezing thus the car becomes an energy pig in the cold. The heatpump does have an advantage if stretching the cruising range is important.

You cannot judge by the number of battery bars on the display. Some firmware updates and "resets" will temporarily change the reported number of bars. Before buying any used LEAF I would examine the battery condition in detail with something like Leaf Spy.

I've often read about the supposed build-quality superiority of the Japan-produced LEAFs. I've had a 2012 (Japan) and 2015 (USA) and I really haven't noticed any huge differences. As you noted, the rear seat in the newer models is a bit chintzy and it's especially apparent if you ever try to remove it. But that's kind of a minor thing. When it comes to an EV, it's all about the battery and 2015's have better ones.

rogersleaf said:

However, experience tells me putting 15K-17K miles/year on a LEAF without L2 charging will be a challenge. The usage cycle described sound ideal for a LEAF especially with a 2nd gasoline vehicle. The critical constraint is recovery time on L1 (3-4% of capacity per hour). Even a lower-amperage L2 will greatly enhance your ownership experience.

Click to expand...

Totally agree. L1 charging is VERY slow. If relegated to L1, it means ALWAYS plugging it in at home immediately upon arrival. And, it might also meet opportunity L2 charging in lots of places.

rogersleaf said:

Also understand that cold weather requires substantially more energy if you like heat and keeping the windshield clear of ice & snow. Make sure the older used choices have the heated seats, steering wheel and battery heater. The hybrid heatpump system in my SV is great most of the time but has issues in cold & damp situations and becomes useless at temps below freezing thus the car becomes an energy pig in the cold. The heatpump does have an advantage if stretching the cruising range is important.

Click to expand...

All '12+ Leafs (yes, including '13+) should have the heated seats, steering wheel and (lame) battery heater: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/19/2012-nissan-leaf-higher-price-tag-standard-equipment/.

Re: the energy pig part, w/o the hybrid heater (e.g. on any pre-'13 and on any S), the resistive heater is an energy pig.

These are all great replies and I appreciate the time each of you has taken to respond! Thank you!

Largely due to your (collective) input, I think we're going to only be interested in 2013 (or newer) SL or SV models. The 2013 SV *may* have a quick charge package. On Monday I will verify the exact packages on this one and get clarification on the seems-too-good-to-be-true 2015 model.

I do have the VIN for the 2013 model. The mileage is just barely over 14K and it was originally titled in Cincinnati, Ohio.

Regarding the 15-17K a year, that may have been optimistic. We've averaged approx. 16K miles a year over the last three years in (one of) the minivans, so I was basing things off of that. However, that includes at least one big road trip which would probably bring the average down some, perhaps to 13-14K a year. The overwhelming majority of our travel is less than 25 miles away and the split would be 50/50 city/highway.

The critical constraint is recovery time on L1 (3-4% of capacity per hour).

Click to expand...

I wish that people who don't use L-1 charging a lot would stop answering questions about it, especially incorrectly. L-1 adds 5% charge per hour, consistently, and is easily enough for 30-35 miles a day if the car charges for 10 hours or so overnight. I did a 43 mile commute, during a very cold Winter, using only L-1. If you don't care about heating times the hybrid heater is probably not a necessity, but if you want fast heat in cold weather I suggest you get it if possible. Also, when looking at SVs, keep in mind that a few of them will be lacking in all options, including Premium Package (Around view cameras and Bose stereo) and backup camera. This will hurt the resale value, but if you don't mind installing your own rearview camera and don't want the usual options it's a great negotiating point.

Given your usage profile, you could get by with an S, but with the August release of the 30 kWh cars, you might be able to get a good deal on a 2015 SV or SL for not much more money. With a new car, you get the full warranty.

Seems like a no brainer... For a few thousand more you get a new car & new warranty. Another key consideration is your tax bracket to get the $7500 fed credit. Wait 2 months for the 2016s to be out for additional price perks. Lastly, even though you're paying cash, Nissan may have 0% financing on new.

I drive a 2015 S with the QC option and wanted to give you my thoughts after 7 months of ownership. Basically, I love it! We also primarily trickle charge using 110 in the garage and log almost 1000 miles a month with no problem. Now, we also have access to QC and L2 public chargers only 2 miles from the house whenever we "need" a quick boost, so keep that in mind. I would definitely get the QC package. Even if there aren't any near you now, there likely will be in the future and you want to be able to use them.

Re: heating I love the heated seats and heated steering wheel during the winter. Now granted, I live in Georgia so my winters and not as long or as harse as yours. In fact for much of the winter we didn't even use the heater, just the seats and steering wheel.

Overall I would agree with several others that generally newer is better because the battery tech has improved. Especially if you are going to buy rather than lease. I get paying cash, I paid cash for my last two vehicles prior to leasing this Leaf and don't like having a monthly payment. But given the pace at which EV technology is advancing (and the fact that my state tax credit was available to me even on a lease) I decided to lease the Leaf for 3 years, that way I have an option to turn it in or buy at the residual value depending on where the tech is at that time. Even if you are going to buy try to wait until the 2016 models are out, that may cause Nissan to place even better incentives on 2015 models.

Good luck!

Actually, if you want to buy, you really should lease. Stick your cash in a CD or something. You'll get a good deal now with the new cars coming out, the Fed rebate up front and at lease end, very likely to get a sizable buyout offer from NMAC as the Gen 2 cars will be out by then.

get the faster charger (6.6kw) and the SV or SL hybrid heat pump. and install an L2 at home...or get the EVSE upgrade done to the Nissan EVSE that comes with the Leaf. Much, much easier to pre-heat using 240 volts than 120 volts. U will not regret that feature in Wisconsin! Even to pre-cool when it's hot is better when connected to higher voltage/amps.

Chademo here in Oregon is a no-brainer and is amazing. Turns my Leaf into a regional car, not just a local car! Sounds like Wisconsin may need to add a few to make that option worthwhile in the future.

My 2 cents.

Curt

I bought a Leaf!
The 2013 model did have the QC and LED package but no backup camera. Otherwise, it was very very clean and - if I'm interpreting the Leaf Spy Pro output correctly, has a battery health of 92%. It's also a color we wanted and - most importantly - the wife is happy. It is also Nissan Certified.

We will see how things go with just the Level 1 charger in our initial use, and if warranted either upgrade with the 'EVSE Upgrade' or buy a level-2 charger (this is somewhat less likely), but either way I'm not going to get the cart in front of the new electric horse if I can help it.

Thank you again to all that have responded!

64chevy said:

I bought a Leaf!
The 2013 model did have the QC and LED package but no backup camera. Otherwise, it was very very clean and - if I'm interpreting the Leaf Spy Pro output correctly, has a battery health of 92%. It's also a color we wanted and - most importantly - the wife is happy. It is also Nissan Certified.

Click to expand...

Congrats. Don't mean to sound like a Debbie downer or thread crapper, but keep in mind you may never or almost never use that QC port (see Plugshare for how many CHAdeMO DC FCs are around you). Hope it was "worth" the extra cost.

As I mentioned in my posts, there's WAY more CHAdeMO around me, and I didn't feel it was worth it to buy a used '13 SV with CHAdeMO inlet, even though I had one with CHAdeMO inlet for 2 years, that went back at end of lease.

Also, hope you didn't overpay. In the California used car market, that car is probably worth $10K, $11K tops.

64chevy said:

I bought a Leaf! The 2013 model did have the QC and LED package but no backup camera.

Click to expand...

FYI if you are comfortable working on your own car, you might be interested in this DIY modification to add a factory backup camera system:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10107

Must keep wife happy.

Good for you.

There's QC in Milwaukee and Madison. Maybe soon in Janesville and Dubuque. Occasional QC offers no benefit as you say in your OP, but occasionally charging to 100% will balance your pack cells.

Used car markets are funny things. Wisconsin didn't have any state rebates and we don't have any special lanes or traffic benefits to EV vehicles, so the "benefit" is reduced correspondingly. I paid what I believe is a fair price given the local market (and even looked as far as several neighboring states). The presence or absence of the QC package was not a deciding factor, but the condition, color, and availability were. Also, it was from a Nissan dealer (and - supposedly - a reputable one). It also came with the Nissan Certified benefit, although that was not a deciding factor either.

At the end of the day, I would have preferred an SL but I got what I wanted for an acceptable price. We did manage to talk them down in price a bit. We pick it up today and we're very excited!

Now we're looking at floor mats, and we will probably go with the Nissan all-weather ones.