Public charging

What are your experiences with Public charging? (Austin Tx) Is it convenient or a big hassle? Or do most folks charge at home; and just keep their trips to within 60 miles round trip or so; which would be ok with me. I think 3.3kw is like 12-13mile/hour, which would be fine for for home charging.

How much does it cost to get a 240v volt charger for the leaf, and get it installed? And is 3.3kw enough, or do I need the upgrade option with DC charging? How much extra is the Leaf fast charging option?
- Bernie

BernieTx said:

What are your experiences with Public charging? (Austin Tx) Is it convenient or a big hassle? Or do most folks charge at home; and just keep their trips to within 60 miles round trip or so; which would be ok with me; I think 3.3kw is like 12mile/hour or something like that??
How much does it cost to get a 240v volt charger for the leaf, and get it installed. And is 3.3kw enough, or do I need the upgrade option with DC charging? How much extra is that?
- Bernie

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I'm in the Dallas area, so not too far away. I would so public charging can be a hassle. But a lot of it depends on various factors. I would have serious reservations about buying a Leaf if I could not charge at home for whatever reason. Home charging should be your primary daily means of charging. Public charging should be for those cases when you need to go further in a day than your overnight charge will take you. In Texas, we have several problems with public charging:

• Not nearly enough stations, especially quick-charge.
• Most of our L2 stations are Blink stations, and they are broken most of the time.
• EVGo stations seem to work decently reliable, but there just aren't enough to go around.
• Most drivers in Texas are still oblivious that EVs exist so they park their gas cars in EV charging spaces, making them unusable for those of us that need them.
• Other drivers in Texas may be aware of EVs but hate them and prefer rolling coal in their diesel powered dually pickup and still park in EV spots out of spite.
• We have no laws in Texas to prevent people doing the before mentioned activity.

BernieTx said:

What are your experiences with Public charging? (Austin Tx) Is it convenient or a big hassle? Or do most folks charge at home; and just keep their trips to within 60 miles round trip or so; which would be ok with me. I think 3.3kw is like 12-13mile/hour, which would be fine for for home charging.

How much does it cost to get a 240v volt charger for the leaf, and get it installed? And is 3.3kw enough, or do I need the upgrade option with DC charging? How much extra is the Leaf fast charging option?
- Bernie

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In the San Francisco Bay area, there are a moderate number of public charge stations, but generally they are of far less use than charging at home. Problems with public stations are:
1) They are often not where you want to be, so you would have to stop and wait during the charge instead of plugging in at your destination and being charged and ready when you want to leave. This is a problem because even a DC quick charger is a lot slower than pumping gasoline in terms of miles added per minute.
2) They are unreliable - there may be another car charging there, or just parked there - last night I walked past several in our downtown, signed for electric cars only, but only half were plugged in to charge. Also, internal combustion engine cars (generally Prius'es) often block spots.
2b) They are unreliable. Sometimes they are non-functional when you get there. In either case of unreliability, you better have a plan B to get home.
3) They are expensive. This mostly applies to the L3 DC quick chargers. If you are not nearly empty, the $5 - $10 cost can work out to a lot more per mile than just driving the gasoline car. You can't alway expect to arrive at the charger ready to take a near full charge. In fact, doing so would be pretty foolish, since the charger may be non-functioning or non-available. Blink is now $0.49 or $0.59 per kWh, which is more even than the high cost of California electricity, and *lots* more than the cost of Texas home electricity.

Having said all that, yes, get the charge package - I think it was $600 or $700 on the S model, and now included on the others. At one point, there were models with just the 6.6 kWh, but really, just get the 6.6 kWh and DC quick charge options. You may not use them frequently, but when you do, you will appreciate them. (Some say using the DC quick charger a lot can be hard on the battery. Still, for occasional use, it is wonderful - charging at 12 to 15 times the rate of a 3.3 kW charger - it is well worth it.)

alanlarson said:

In the San Francisco Bay area, there are a moderate number of public charge stations, but generally they are of far less use than charging at home. Problems with public stations are: .....
3) They are expensive. .... Blink is now $0.49 or $0.59 per kWh, which is more even than the high cost of California electricity, and *lots* more than the cost of Texas home electricity.
..... just get the 6.6 kWh and DC quick charge options. You may not use them frequently, but when you do, you will appreciate them. ... for occasional use, it is wonderful - charging at 12 to 15 times the rate of a 3.3 kW charger ...

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Adric, Alan,
Thanks for the info! I didn't see an option for just the 6.6kw L2 port. Seem a little like price gauging (to me) "Nissan S 6.6 kW Onboard Charger (6 kW output) [*] Quick Charge Port MSRP: $1,770"

I'll never want to use the faster L2 port for public charging (don't need more than 3.3 at home); and QC charging is expensive enough that I would be better off just saving the cash and planning any longer drives on my wife's car
- Bernie

BernieTx said:

alanlarson said:

In the San Francisco Bay area, there are a moderate number of public charge stations, but generally they are of far less use than charging at home. Problems with public stations are: .....
3) They are expensive. .... Blink is now $0.49 or $0.59 per kWh, which is more even than the high cost of California electricity, and *lots* more than the cost of Texas home electricity.
..... just get the 6.6 kWh and DC quick charge options. You may not use them frequently, but when you do, you will appreciate them. ... for occasional use, it is wonderful - charging at 12 to 15 times the rate of a 3.3 kW charger ...

Click to expand...

Adric, Alan,
Thanks for the info! I didn't see an option for just the 6.6kw L2 port. Seem a little like price gauging (to me) "Nissan S 6.6 kW Onboard Charger (6 kW output) [*] Quick Charge Port MSRP: $1,770"

I'll never want to use the faster L2 port for public charging (don't need more than 3.3 at home); and QC charging is expensive enough that I would be better off just saving the cash and planning any longer drives on my wife's car
- Bernie

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I just charge at home, with one exception. There is a Kolhs in a complex by me, free L2, and walkable to a few restaurants I frequent and a nice movie theater. They have 4 charging stations, and I have never see one used, so that is a no brainer. I went in and told the manager I appreciate their service, and she said she did not know of anyone else who used the stations.

You might want to go to plugshare.com to see if there are public chargers near places you want to go.

BernieTx said:

alanlarson said:

In the San Francisco Bay area, there are a moderate number of public charge stations, but generally they are of far less use than charging at home. Problems with public stations are: .....
3) They are expensive. .... Blink is now $0.49 or $0.59 per kWh, which is more even than the high cost of California electricity, and *lots* more than the cost of Texas home electricity.
..... just get the 6.6 kWh and DC quick charge options. You may not use them frequently, but when you do, you will appreciate them. ... for occasional use, it is wonderful - charging at 12 to 15 times the rate of a 3.3 kW charger ...

Click to expand...

Adric, Alan,
Thanks for the info! I didn't see an option for just the 6.6kw L2 port. Seem a little like price gauging (to me) "Nissan S 6.6 kW Onboard Charger (6 kW output) [*] Quick Charge Port MSRP: $1,770"

I'll never want to use the faster L2 port for public charging (don't need more than 3.3 at home); and QC charging is expensive enough that I would be better off just saving the cash and planning any longer drives on my wife's car
- Bernie

Click to expand...

I bought my car with QC even when there was only 1 QC in the entire state, over 130 miles from my home area. Over a year later, there are now around 20 and I use them frequently enough to drive between here and the next big city on the highway. If you are planning on keeping the car for any length of time, you may kick yourself in a few years for not getting the QC port. I agree the 3.3 vs 6 L2 charge is sort of a meh-whatever type upgrade. I don't care if the car charges at home twice as fast, it is still sitting there. But the QC port is made for travel, and that is a whole new beast.

2k1Toaster said:

I agree the 3.3 vs 6 L2 charge is sort of a meh-whatever type upgrade. I don't care if the car charges at home twice as fast, it is still sitting there. But the QC port is made for travel, and that is a whole new beast.

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Actually a faster L2 charging rate is useful for travel as well. If you are in an area where there is no QC, but can find an L2 capable of at least 20 amps, the faster OBC can put you back on the road quicker.

RonDawg said:

2k1Toaster said:

I agree the 3.3 vs 6 L2 charge is sort of a meh-whatever type upgrade. I don't care if the car charges at home twice as fast, it is still sitting there. But the QC port is made for travel, and that is a whole new beast.

Click to expand...

Actually a faster L2 charging rate is useful for travel as well. If you are in an area where there is no QC, but can find an L2 capable of at least 20 amps, the faster OBC can put you back on the road quicker.

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That's an emergency scenario, not a "travel" scenario IMHO. I am not going to plan a trip that requires a 3 hour charge there and back. 2 half hour charges is doable. The only reason to use L2 public charging is opportunity charging and emergency charging or where you are going to be a long time anyways, like a parking garage for a theatre show.

BernieTx said:

How much does it cost to get a 240v volt charger for the leaf, and get it installed?

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That is going to vary. First, the least expensive turn-key option is to send the car's own EVSE (which is what is often incorrectly called a "charger") to a company called EVSE Upgrade, and for about $300 you can plug it in to either 120 or 240 volt current: http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=28" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you want a permanently installed solution, you can get a 15 amp EVSE for under $400 from Clipper Creek: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-lcs-20-level-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For a little bit more, you can get an EVSE that can supply a higher charging rate if you do get a Leaf with an upgraded on-board charging unit, or for future-proofing. An upgrade to their 20 amp unit is $100 more: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-lcs-25-level-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and another $100 more to their 30 amp unit, which is the most any current Leaf (or most other current EVs save for Tesla/Tesla-powered cars) can take advantage of: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40-32a-240v-charging-25-cord/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are other EVSE products on the market besides EVSE Upgrade and Clipper Creek, but those two are the most recommended on this forum.

Note that you also need to balance that with what your current home electrical infrastructure can handle. A 30 amp unit will require a 40 amp dedicated circuit, and many older homes do not have this kind of spare capacity without a considerable upgrade. You may find it's economically not viable to install a 30 amp unit, but your home can handle a 15 amp unit (requiring just a 20 amp circuit).

Installation is going to vary widely. If you have an unused 240 volt outlet nearby, that is going to be the cheapest solution, and most Clipper Creek home EVSEs have a plug-in option for $50 more (or you can supply your own plug if you know what you are doing). If your municipality or electricity provider requires things like a dedicated meter, that too is going to drive up the price.

My 20 amp Clipper Creek unit cost me $595 (before they dropped the price) and my installation was another grand, but mine required permits and an external meter which drove up the price.

2k1Toaster said:

That's an emergency scenario, not a "travel" scenario IMHO. I am not going to plan a trip that requires a 3 hour charge there and back. 2 half hour charges is doable. The only reason to use L2 public charging is opportunity charging and emergency charging or where you are going to be a long time anyways, like a parking garage for a theatre show.

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Umm, no it's not just an "emergency" scenario. Occasionally I will travel from my home to the LA/Orange County border area. On the way back I have to stop at an EVSE for a "top up" charge. I have an older Leaf and thus only have the 3.3 kW unit, so I need to stop for at least an hour, and often 2 hours. If I had a newer Leaf with the faster OBC, one hour is more than sufficient for me to get home.

I cannot use QC as my 2012 Leaf is an SV and QC was not available on that trim level that year; I would have had to step up to the SL for a full 2 grand more.

I understand that you don't think it's convenient to charge for more than 30 minutes at a time, but understand that not all of us Leafers have QC ability, either because the car lacks it, or because there are no QC's in the area. That's where a faster OBC can come in handy.

RonDawg said:

I understand that you don't think it's convenient to charge for more than 30 minutes at a time, but understand that not all of us Leafers have QC ability, either because the car lacks it, or because there are no QC's in the area. That's where a faster OBC can come in handy.

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Believe me, I can feel for folks who jumped in early; especially given the marketing saying "100 mile range, may be down to 80 after 5 years.." BS. (Yes I remember being told that by salesperson when the Leaf first came out...). I'm quite glad that it took a while before I was able to justify my purchase.

Even so I recognize that I have a less than ideal vehicle - still considerable room for improvement. However, looking forward I fully expect that the need/desire for L2 chargers will in fact be restricted to destinations where folks sit for a long time (at least an hour or two - like the suggested theater). I envision the range of EV's being sufficient that buyers will be able to charge exclusively at night (at home) and not need to charge at all during the day 95+% of the time with the remaining bits being long 'road trips' where a DCQC would be the most useful. This is why I would not invest (and don't really think our tax dollars should be spent) in any L2 charging infrastructure. Yes it would be nice today with our limited range, but I just don't see the long term returns covering even initial installation costs. I do support investment (Public/private) in DCQC stations placed along major roadways that charge a fee for usage - I can see long term potential here. Even if the connectors/EVSEs change, the cabling should be useful in these locations for years to come.

Slow1 said:

I envision the range of EV's being sufficient that buyers will be able to charge exclusively at night (at home) and not need to charge at all during the day 95+% of the time with the remaining bits being long 'road trips' where a DCQC would be the most useful. This is why I would not invest (and don't really think our tax dollars should be spent) in any L2 charging infrastructure. Yes it would be nice today with our limited range, but I just don't see the long term returns covering even initial installation costs. I do support investment (Public/private) in DCQC stations placed along major roadways that charge a fee for usage - I can see long term potential here. Even if the connectors/EVSEs change, the cabling should be useful in these locations for years to come.

Click to expand...

But for those range abilities to get longer, one of two things needs to happen: either the car's "fuel economy" needs to improve, or affordable battery capacity will need to grow. I suspect we'll see greater short-term improvements with the latter than the former.

In which case, the need for a faster OBC will have to grow as well, otherwise you won't be able to have a "full tank" with just an overnight charge. So even if more QC's are installed, car manufacturers will also have to upgrade the OBC's on future models to make charging those larger batteries feasible within a reasonable time frame.

2k1Toaster said:

I bought my car with QC even when there was only 1 QC in the entire state, over 130 miles from my home area. Over a year later, there are now around 20 and I use them frequently enough to drive between here and the next big city on the highway. If you are planning on keeping the car for any length of time, you may kick yourself in a few years for not getting the QC port. I agree the 3.3 vs 6 L2 charge is sort of a meh-whatever type upgrade. I don't care if the car charges at home twice as fast, it is still sitting there. But the QC port is made for travel, and that is a whole new beast.

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For me, that would be a day trip from Austin to San Antonio, the nearest city, which is about 90-100miles out of town. Or a weekend trip to Houston or Dallas, which is about a 4 hour drive.
Perhaps those kinds of trips are unrealistic with the current range of the Leaf? Do the QC stations get busy on weekends? There is a smaller city in between Austin and San Antonio, San Marcos and there's a Nissan dealer there, but I don't see a QC on the map. I was thinking it would make more sense to use a gasoline car, and just use the Leaf for in town driving since it might be onerous to plan around the limitations of the current range. Does a Volt make more sense for road trips than a Leaf?

RonDawg said:

Slow1 said:

I envision the range of EV's being sufficient that buyers will be able to charge exclusively at night (at home) and not need to charge at all during the day 95+% of the time with the remaining bits being long 'road trips' where a DCQC would be the most useful. This is why I would not invest (and don't really think our tax dollars should be spent) in any L2 charging infrastructure. Yes it would be nice today with our limited range, but I just don't see the long term returns covering even initial installation costs. I do support investment (Public/private) in DCQC stations placed along major roadways that charge a fee for usage - I can see long term potential here. Even if the connectors/EVSEs change, the cabling should be useful in these locations for years to come.

Click to expand...

But for those range abilities to get longer, one of two things needs to happen: either the car's "fuel economy" needs to improve, or affordable battery capacity will need to grow. I suspect we'll see greater short-term improvements with the latter than the former.

In which case, the need for a faster OBC will have to grow as well, otherwise you won't be able to have a "full tank" with just an overnight charge. So even if more QC's are installed, car manufacturers will also have to upgrade the OBC's on future models to make charging those larger batteries feasible within a reasonable time frame.

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I agree with your assessment of what needs to happen. I wonder how much the OBC weighs? Would one save much weight by only having the DC port to charge? Sure, that would mean we would have to have DC chargers at home, but is that so bad? I imagine they are heavy and less portable to design.... thus OBC for now to carry it about, but once there is sufficient range and DC charger availability... Less weight does translate into better range, perhaps dumping the OBC would make a noticable difference?

Slow1 said:

I wonder how much the OBC weighs? Would one save much weight by only having the DC port to charge? Sure, that would mean we would have to have DC chargers at home, but is that so bad? I imagine they are heavy and less portable to design.... thus OBC for now to carry it about, but once there is sufficient range and DC charger availability... Less weight does translate into better range, perhaps dumping the OBC would make a noticable difference?

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Installing QC stations at home is not practical, due to the cost of the units, the infrastructure required, and the demand costs from the utilities.

RonDawg said:

Umm, no it's not just an "emergency" scenario. Occasionally I will travel from my home to the LA/Orange County border area. On the way back I have to stop at an EVSE for a "top up" charge. I have an older Leaf and thus only have the 3.3 kW unit, so I need to stop for at least an hour, and often 2 hours. If I had a newer Leaf with the faster OBC, one hour is more than sufficient for me to get home.

I cannot use QC as my 2012 Leaf is an SV and QC was not available on that trim level that year; I would have had to step up to the SL for a full 2 grand more.

I understand that you don't think it's convenient to charge for more than 30 minutes at a time, but understand that not all of us Leafers have QC ability, either because the car lacks it, or because there are no QC's in the area. That's where a faster OBC can come in handy.

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I'm in the same boat. I got an SV without QC because I knew that there wouldn't be any QC stations where I live. Now, 3+ years later, the nearest QC station is still 300 miles away.

But I charge at a public L2 station on my weekly grocery runs (70 miles, 2500 feet of elevation change). I need about an hour with my 3.3 kW OBC. If I had the 6.0 kW OBC I could get away with about 35 minutes of charging. As my battery continues to degrade I will gradually need longer stops at the public L2 station.

Those in cities with L2 stations all over the place can't appreciate how big a deal it was when that first public L2 station went in here last May. I suppose that when all EVs come with a 200+ mile range then public L2 stations won't be needed anymore. But that's a ways off.

RonDawg said:

Slow1 said:

I wonder how much the OBC weighs? Would one save much weight by only having the DC port to charge? Sure, that would mean we would have to have DC chargers at home, but is that so bad? I imagine they are heavy and less portable to design.... thus OBC for now to carry it about, but once there is sufficient range and DC charger availability... Less weight does translate into better range, perhaps dumping the OBC would make a noticable difference?

Click to expand...

Installing QC stations at home is not practical, due to the cost of the units, the infrastructure required, and the demand costs from the utilities.

Click to expand...

Fair point for QC, but here is a question - what would the cost/infrastructure/etc be required to have a DC charger that used the same port but 'only' charged at 6Kw (same as current best OBC for Leaf)? Since this would not draw any more than the current AC ESVE the demand and infrastructure would be no different. Cost of the unit should be quite a bit lower than something that can provide 40kW of DC power as well... So home charging via DC wouldn't be as fast as a QC out on the road, but really does it need to be? Not putting the charger in the car may lower car cost a bit - perhaps the mfg could provide the home unit at a comparable cost making the net change there negligible?

dgpcolorado said:

RonDawg said:

I cannot use QC as my 2012 Leaf is an SV and QC was not available on that trim level that year; I would have had to step up to the SL for a full 2 grand more.

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I'm in the same boat. I got an SV without QC because I knew that there wouldn't be any QC stations where I live. Now, 3+ years later, the nearest QC station is still 300 miles away.

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Besides cost, the reason I didn't step up to an SL w/ QC was at the time there were very few QC's even in the LA area. Of course in the 2 years since the number of QC's in the area has just exploded.

If I do decide to get another BEV in a year when my lease expires (as opposed to continuing the lease, or getting a PHEV), it will most certainly have some sort of QC capability.

Slow1 said:

Fair point for QC, but here is a question - what would the cost/infrastructure/etc be required to have a DC charger that used the same port but 'only' charged at 6Kw (same as current best OBC for Leaf)? Since this would not draw any more than the current AC ESVE the demand and infrastructure would be no different. Cost of the unit should be quite a bit lower than something that can provide 40kW of DC power as well... So home charging via DC wouldn't be as fast as a QC out on the road, but really does it need to be? Not putting the charger in the car may lower car cost a bit - perhaps the mfg could provide the home unit at a comparable cost making the net change there negligible?

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But what would the point of that be? Just to save the weight of an OBC? And how will you charge at home? How many homes have DC 480 volt capability? So you'll still need some sort of device to convert that incoming AC current to DC, and double the voltage as well. And how will you charge the tens of thousands of existing EV's that were designed with J1772 in mind, but have no DC port?

It's already been a challenge to get the existing public L2 infrastructure in, and to educate the public about the various charging standards, now you want to add yet another set of standards to the ones that currently exist? It will make the confusion over VHS/Beta, and more recently Blu-ray/HD-DVD, absolutely pale by comparison.

As far as a combined L1/L2/QC port, that already exists in the form of CCS, aka "FrankenPlug." Of course we know how well that was received on this forum :lol: