13 Mile Winter Range?

I recently paid attention to two trips: one 6.5 miles and the other 8.8 miles. On both trips I returned the car to the garage with 50% charge. Assuming the same use the caused it to arrive at 50% charge, is 13-18 miles a fair range estimate?

More details: The temperature has been hovering just above zero for the last few weeks; maybe 5 degrees F. Today it was a balmy 18 degrees F. I operate the car using the defroster (A/C + heater) for 90% or more of the drive time. The car is garaged at about 40 degrees F and charged on the stock L1. The starting range estimate is usually around 39 miles w/climate control. The LEAF model year is 2011 and the mileage is about 44k. My city is small and hilly. I run studded snow tires because otherwise the vehicle would be useless in a Helena, Montana winter. This is my first winter with a LEAF and I find that I'm constantly looking to plug in outside of my normal overnight 120V charge.

Because I live in a small town and my trips are quite short, I have the luxury of tolerating reduced winter range. However, my range seems lower than anything I've ever heard of.

To come back to the question: is my estimation of a 12-18 mile range fair?

It takes a lot of power to heat the climate control's heater core initially. Between that and other factors like a cold cabin the first few miles of use tend to use more power than subsequent miles, so you probably have a bit more range than you think. Turn the heat down a little (both temp and fan speed) and the range will increase. Also, please put what year and model Leaf you have in your use signature here.

You fail to mention how many battery capacity bars are remaining or better yet, AHR, SOH via Leafspy.

Phatcat73 said:

You fail to mention how many battery capacity bars are remaining or better yet, AHR, SOH via Leafspy.

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Yes, sounds like it is a used Leaf ...

I don't know the actual range changes but you can expect a significant range reduction due to the snow tires compared with low rolling resistant.

http://www.hybridcars.com/low-rolling-resistance-tire-primer-50256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Compared to stock tires, the Tire Rack estimates low rolling resistance tires increase fuel savings by up to double when installed on cars that deliver 25-30 mpg and up to quadruple for light trucks and utility vehicles delivering 12-15 mpg.

That being said I can't and haven't found a reliable place to convert mpg fuel savings for x distance. One article I found touted a 5% difference in distance between all weather and low rolling. So assume (big assumption) another 5% for snow instead of all weather puts the range reduction to 10% because of tires alone. Add the cold, possible snow, lack of preheat, that all makes sense.

Last winter in 0*F weather with nearly bald ecopia oem tires, 1 battery temp bar and a full battery I was at 20 miles using the heat the whole time. That's not 20 GOM that's 20 actual trip miles. Factor in a single bar loss on a my2011 and hills then you get results I'm not entirely surprised by. If you have more than 1 capacity bar down then the range makes even more sense.

From Andy's range chart, drop 1% range for every 4*F below 70. So for 0*F drop 17.5 miles from 'best' range. I seem to average around 3.5 miles/kwh during the winter with sporadic use of the heater. By sporadic I mean some trips I use it after preheating and some I don't use at all. Real short trips I don't use. So the range chart with one bar capacity loss say for 3.6 m/kwh at 100% charge max range is 62 miles. Subtract 17.5 for air temp that's 44.5 miles. Subtract 4 miles for snow tires that takes you to 40.5

I don't have numbers but but a cold battery is not as efficient both in output and in recovery so a 2-3 temp bar on the battery will reduce that 40 miles even more.

Per the range chart subtract 1 1/2 range bars per hour of heat so that starts us at 55 miles instead of 62 and redo the math to 34 miles of range. We don't have a slush/snow factor and I'm not aware of a rolling hills range factor but again you won't get any regeneration with a cold battery so it's all give and no get.


Bottom line, while your range is not what anyone has reported that I'm aware of, it's not exactly surprising to me based on my own personal experience driving in the KC cold.

ksnogas2112 said:

http://www.hybridcars.com/low-rolling-resistance-tire-primer-50256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Compared to stock tires, the Tire Rack estimates low rolling resistance tires increase fuel savings by up to double when installed on cars that deliver 25-30 mpg and up to quadruple for light trucks and utility vehicles delivering 12-15 mpg.

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I found this quote in the article confusing. This is what they seem to be referring to, actually from Tire Rack.

In the case of the Prius, one of the most fuel-efficient cars in America, the difference between our lowest and highest recorded miles per gallon would result in an annual difference of about 21 gallons of regular gasoline consumed at a cost of about $52.50 (at $2.50/gallon) for drivers traveling 15,000 miles a year. Multiply this difference by several years of driving and the value of using low rolling resistance tires steadily increases. Additionally, you can also apply similar percentages of improvement in fuel economy to other vehicles. The fuel saving dollar value of eco-friendly, low rolling resistance tires essentially doubles or quadruples when applied to typical cars that deliver 25-30 mpg or light trucks and utility vehicles delivering 12-15 mpg.

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So, that's double or quadruple the fuel savings compared to what you save on a Prius. In the case of the Leaf, we are talking about getting as many as 10 miles of range, which could be significant, depending on your needs.

electriffic said:

.....I operate the car using the defroster (A/C + heater) for 90% or more of the drive time....The LEAF model year is 2011 and the mileage is about 44k. ...... I run studded snow tires ..... and my trips are quite short

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Welcome to the winter EV driving experience! I selected from your post some of the more important issues:
1) Other than high speed, defrost in the 2011 is the worst consumer of electrons. Since you can't change the car, try changing your behavior just a bit. I use the foot/windshield mode instead of defrost and it cuts consumption by half or sometimes even more.
2)Since this is your first winter, this is clearly a used Leaf and has probably lost at least 20% of the battery (mine has and I've babied it and only have 25,000 mi). How many capacity bars do your have? Probably 10 or 11 out of the original 12. I have found that the first few charging bars disappear rather quickly, especially now that the battery is degraded. The good news is that the bottom charging bars seem to give more miles (probably because Nissan didn't want to have people running out of charge). If you want to know more, look into the free LeafSpy lite app available on Google Pay. There are also a multiple threads on this site so just do a quick search.
3)Studded tires will certainly kill range, I'd say at least 20%. I've never felt the need for them myself and think they damage the road too much, but hey it's your choice.
4)Short trips and near zero temps are killers for range. Every time you start up, you suck 5 KW of heat for at least a mile before the cabin gets any heat. Then, you stop and all that precious heat rapidly leaves. This occurs much faster than in a gas car because the EV motor doesn't give off enough waste heat for the metal mass to ever get warm. In a gas car, the engine mass may stay warm for 30 min (while you are in the store on your errand) and then when restarted heat is immediately available. Sorry, about the physics here, but for such short trips, you might consider not even running the heater. I have similar driving patterns and often pre-heat on wall power for about 10-20 min BEFORE leaving the house. The car is plenty warm for my short (1-2 mi) trips to the store. For longer trips, heat is often necessary but wearing winter clothes helps reduce heat consumption.

Anyway, all that to say: You should have more than 13 mi range, even at 0 F. Although it is scary running the battery all the way down to zero, it would be a good experience for you to try in a controlled test (weekend, circling around your house near the end of the range, plenty of time to recharge, plenty of food/water/clothes/emergency supplies, etc). The 2011's are notorious for having "hidden" mileage at the bottom end of the battery. In town, I can get at least 10 mi after the first low battery warning (LBW), plus another 10 mi after the VLBW until reaching Turtle. Turtle then only gives you about 1/2 mi at 25 mph max before completely dead. These numbers will certainly be reduced at very low temps, but I've confirmed them at around 25 F.

Finally, if you are only using the Nissan-supplied L1 cord at 12 amp, 120 V then you will find the pre-heat function to be less than stellar, especially below 10 F. It only puts out 1.2 KW of heat (think about trying to pre-heat the car with a hair dryer ). Having a L2 20 amp 240 V charging station or EVSEUpgrade.com device will greatly improve your pre-heating and charging speeds. However, if your driving distances are modest (less than 20 mi per day) then you won't need it. Feel free to search my previous posts for more information and experience.

While we're waiting to find out what model Leaf the OP has (if they ever return) I'd like to disagree with one of the claims above. First, using snow tires doesn't necessarily mean a big drop in range, although I don't know about studded snows. I get about 3.5 M/kwh in cold weather with both my non-Winter tires (Goodyear Eagle LS) and my Pirelli hard-compound snows, inflated to 38psi. I think I got 3.6 with the OEM Ecopias. In warm weather I've seen 4.4 M/kwh with the snows on. I think that we tend to equate the cold-related drop in efficiency with using snow tires, when it's mainly the heater causing the drop. I'm sure that some snow tires do have very high rolling resistance, but don't dismiss all winter tires for that reason.

I experience the same here in Michigan on very cold days. I live less than 2 miles from work. I drive to work, then back home for lunch, then back to work, then back home. By the time I get home at night, I'm usually at around 50% or less, even though I've only driven 7 miles.

Lots of factors. Regen is practically non-existent above 50% SOC in extreme cold, so there's a lot of waste there. The heater is always operating at 100%, since it's never on long enough to level off with such short trips. The battery can store less in colder temperatures. There's more rolling resistance with snow/ice tires, plus the actual snow and ice on the road. There's more wind resistance due to more dense air, etc... And finally, since we have older LEAFs, there's degradation.

The car is fabulous (heated steering wheel, heated seats, preheating- all very nice for winter), but the range *sucks*.

electriffic said:

To come back to the question: is my estimation of a 12-18 mile range fair?

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No. What kubel just wrote sums it up pretty well. I would guess your worst case range would be 30 miles, still not great, but why not give it a test? Pick a cold, snowy day, not too hard to do this time of year, and staying within a safe distance from home, see what happens when you get below 50%.

Edit: you really should consider getting a L2, it'll pre-heat better and keep more charge for driving.

Or, you could eat at Suds Hut a lot.

Wow, thank you all very much for your thoughtful replies. I very much appreciate your input.

Phatcat73, I don't know what AHR, SOH are. Educate me and I'll listen. I have 12 bars remaining. I wonder, does using the L1 "trickle charge" help extend battery life?

DNAinaGoodWay, I did eat at Suds Hut tonight! And wow, that level 2 was super! Other folks commented that an L2 is worth it and I agree. I just have to convince the wife!

Kubel I was very interested to know your situation with the short drives and cold weather. That's pretty much the same as me...lots of short trips in painfully cold weather using studded snow tires. We've had a fair amount of snow in the last few weeks too. I managed to stick the LEAF in the snow at the top of my driveway. 15 minutes of digging and rocking and it was out; so I can report that the LEAF behaves as well as any other front-wheel drive in the snow. (No Prius weirdness about loss of power).

Reddy your observation about a lousy preheat on L1 is definitely my experience. I am tending to use the foot/defrost function too. I had no idea how much of an energy suck the heater was until I looked at one of the energy usage screens and saw it sucking downing 4kwh...forgive my ignorance, but isn't that the same as saying 4,000 Watts? Or 40 100W lightbulbs? I have always cringed when we use our 1500W space heater, but that was pretty much as low as I could get the heater to go. I appreciated your detailed post, thanks.

LeftieBiker I have been using your suggestion of reduced temp/fan speed, thanks.

I'll bet that the 30 mile worst-case range is pretty close to accurate. I admit to a bit of range anxiety; the colder it gets the faster those bars disappear and the more I want to hold on to them. I've been operating climate control less. This morning I drove about eight miles with one stop and some 55mph cruising, mostly without climate control. I had 75% remaining. I think an L2 would make me feel a lot better about winter LEAF driving than my humble L1.

I've never driven this car in the summer months, so I'm sure I'll feel like a range-rich man then.

I am not afraid to turtle it so I will perform a more measured range experiment.

Thank you again for your thoughtful responses. I'm all ears for any education I can get on LEAF ownership.

Clipper Creek is a well-respected maker of L-2 charging stations, made in the US. They have several affordable ones, from a $395 16 amp unit, to a $495 20 amp unit, to several ~$600 units in the 30 amp range. Even the 16 amp one would be a huge improvement, although the 20 amp would probably be less prone to 'wish I'd gotten bigger' syndrome later on.

L-1 pre-heating can work pretty well - I use it. The trick is to do it for only 5-10 minutes right before you leave, with the seat and steering wheel heaters on. You get a mildly warm interior, a nice hot steering wheel and warm seat(s), and while you lose about 2% charge that way, you save quite a bit of necessary heating while driving.

electriffic said:

...
I've never driven this car in the summer months, so I'm sure I'll feel like a range-rich man then. ...

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Per your two posts, signature, and profile you have a 2011 LEAF SL with 44,000 miles on it that you obtained 28Feb2013 that you are driving in Helena, Montana.
Why with 22 months of owning it have you never driven it in either of the two summers you had it?

Does it still have twelve capacity bars (the thin bars on the right)?

With a 2011 and the extremely low winter range you really need LEAF Spy or LEAF Spy Pro.
Helps to more precisely know the range.
Using the LEAF distance to empty number is highly problematic.
That is all I had for 31 months.
LEAF Spy Pro is a two orders of magnitude improvement.

Yes, electriffic, can you give us a little more info? You joined the forum 2 years ago, but just recently got the car? Have you been reading here for two years? You know the capacity bars are the small ones to the right of the larger charge remaining bars? If you got the car used, especially from a hot area, you may have less than 12 of those. Did you get a carfax report? It would tell you where the car originated.

A few people have mentioned Leaf Spy, and I too would recommend it.

You said in the original post that you would complete your journey with 50% charge remaining. How are you measuring this in a 2011? It doesn't report percentage on the dash. The SoC (state-of-charge) bars displayed are not linear. In other words, having 6 of 12 bars lit does not mean you have 50% charge remaining. In fact, according to the famous Leaf Range Chart, you have between 51% and 58% charge remaining. This is because Nissan built in a buffer at the low end, as Reddy alluded to.

I also concur with others who suggest you run your own test. Between the heater usage leveling off to 1.5-2kW and the extra charge you didn't know you have, I would expect you to get closer to 30 miles in those conditions.

And yes, 1kW = 1000W, so 4kW = 4000W or 40 100W light bulbs. That's almost 3x the 1500W space heater in your home.

1kWh = 1kW running for 1 hour. Or it can be 2kW running for half an hour. Or 500W for 2 hours. 1kWh is a unit of energy whereas 1kW is a unit of power (energy over time).

electriffic said:

Wow, thank you all very much for your thoughtful replies. I very much appreciate your input.

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Ask and you shall receive (sometimes more than you want learn, and from every point of view )

electriffic said:

I have 12 bars remaining. Does using the L1 "trickle charge" help extend battery life?

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Good to hear, but you will probably lose the 12th bar soon (it's 15% while the next ones are only 6%). Most 2011s have lost a bar so yours is in better than average shape. The jury is out on L1 helping extend battery life. It might actually decrease life because charging generates heat inside the battery and the extended time to charge on L1 vs L2 might actually keep the internal temperature warmer. However, for you in MT, it's not a worry. On the other side, at extremely cold temps, the internal battery management system (BMS) won't allow faster charging anyway. Hence, the lack of regen that Kubel mentioned. Below 0F, some Norway users have reported LESS than L1 charging speeds even when connected to an L2. In your situation, I wouldn't worry about it one way or another. For low daily mileage, the only reason to use L2 is to improve preheating (3.8 KW vs 1.2 KW going into the cabin) or if you have substandard L1 receptacles or a non-dedicated circuit in the garage.

electriffic said:

I've never driven this car in the summer months, so I'm sure I'll feel like a range-rich man then.

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If the battery ever reaches 80 F (not likely in Helena), you will be amazed. Even with my degraded battery I managed 85 mi last summer, mostly freeway at 55 mph.

electriffic said:

I am not afraid to turtle it so I will perform a more measured range experiment.

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Be careful with this. Lithium ion batteries are best cycled in the middle and extreme high and low charges generate the most damage. Also, if you pack is "unbalanced" or there is one cell that is lower than the others, Turtle will be reached earlier. See:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18468

As for battery maintenance/degradation:
High temperature is the main degradation pathway for LION batteries so you should try to keep them as cool as possible in the summer. I park outside at night to get the benefit of radiant cooling. However, I've found that the battery only cools down if I don't charge that night. Therefore, I try to only charge when I need to drive (I bicycle mostly in the summer). Again, your location means you don't really need to worry about over heating. There is also degradation caused by charging too quickly in extreme cold. Hopefully Nissan has taken this into consideration and we can't do that, but to be prudent it would be best to keep the battery above 40 F (park inside the garage and charge on L1 all night until right before leaving). Will any of this matter? We don't really know and we are now approaching 4-5 yrs of aging on the battery. We had all hoped that degradation would slow down below 80% (heck I even hope to be driving this EV in 2030 and still getting around my 10 mi town). However, many also believe that degradation is linear and won't slow substantially. Spend some time searching MNL.com and you will find numerous technical discussions. Only time will tell.

Enjoy your EV driving while you can. If used everyday to the maximum extent practical, the battery will last in excess of 132,000 mi:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18805&p=404951#p404951

Cold weather amateurs! :roll:

I'm in Ottawa, Canada and today, for example, I drove my normal commute which is 70 kms round trip - sorry, that's 43.5 miles - at -25 degrees celsius or -13 F, with snow tires (not studded) with about two inches of snow on the ground. I got home with 15 kms (about 10 miles) in range left and 2 bars.

I think that our experience up here in Canada is that it's the heater + cold weather impact on battery that sucks up all of your energy. So I (and may of us) do the following:
- store car overnight in protected garage if possible
- pre-heat car in the morning using home L2 EVSE so you don't have to turn on the heat until 10 -15 mins into your commute
- leave your winter coat on when you drive - it's winter after all!
- when you do eventually have to turn on the heat, it's usually because the windshield is fogging up. Don't use the automatic climate control. Turn it on in defrost window + feet mode at 18 - 20 degrees C (65 F) and set the fan at 1 or 2 bars. If you leave it like this the car will defog and the temp will be bearable, all with the least amount of impact on range.

Hope this helps! I'm going out for a skate on the lake - see ya

Scott

jswilson said:

Cold weather amateurs! :roll:

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Yeah, that's how I feel reading this thread. But then, Syracuse is still tropical compared to Ottawa!

I have to laugh when I read about someone turning the heat "down" to 70F. My heater is set at 63, and that's because below that the car heats up the fluids but don't actually produce heat at the vents. Never did figure out why. Incidentally, during the day I turn the heat in my house UP to that same 63 (58 overnight). It's winter. If I'm wearing a sweater, 63 is comfortable. And it's less of a hassle going in and outdoors.

jswilson said:

- pre-heat car in the morning using home L2 EVSE so you don't have to turn on the heat until 10 -15 mins into your commute

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I don't notice a significant difference in energy consumption during those first 10-15 mins, so I just leave the heat on from the get-go. Preheating is critical, though. But once the heater fluids are up to temperature, it takes much less energy to keep them there. If you don't run heat for 15 minutes, they are cooling off and you have to expend energy to heat them up again. There is savings there, I'm sure, but I'm not convinced how much.

jswilson said:

...I think that our experience up here in Canada is that it's the heater + cold weather impact on battery that sucks up all of your energy. So I (and may of us) do the following:
- store car overnight in protected garage if possible
- pre-heat car in the morning using home L2 EVSE so you don't have to turn on the heat until 10 -15 mins into your commute
- leave your winter coat on when you drive - it's winter after all!
- when you do eventually have to turn on the heat, it's usually because the windshield is fogging up. Don't use the automatic climate control. Turn it on in defrost window + feet mode at 18 - 20 degrees C (65 F) and set the fan at 1 or 2 bars. If you leave it like this the car will defog and the temp will be bearable, all with the least amount of impact on range.

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Yes! I do all of the above save for the last. For my heater control I long ago purchased Ingineer's modified CC control unit and can turn the heater off while using the defroster to blow outside air at the windshield as needed.

jswilson said:

...I have to laugh when I read about someone turning the heat "down" to 70F. My heater is set at 63, and that's because below that the car heats up the fluids but don't actually produce heat at the vents. Never did figure out why. Incidentally, during the day I turn the heat in my house UP to that same 63 (58 overnight). It's winter. If I'm wearing a sweater, 63 is comfortable. And it's less of a hassle going in and outdoors.

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That's my reaction also. 70ºF setting for the heater? Why? It doesn't heat any faster than it would with a lower setting save that it will eventually get a lot warmer. I have my LEAF set at 62ºF (works fine for heating when I want it, which isn't often). And I keep my house thermostat at 62ºF mornings and evenings and 52ºF at night. It's winter so I dress accordingly.

TimLee said:

Per your two posts, signature, and profile you have a 2011 LEAF SL with 44,000 miles on it that you obtained 28Feb2013 that you are driving in Helena, Montana.
Why with 22 months of owning it have you never driven it in either of the two summers you had it?

Does it still have twelve capacity bars (the thin bars on the right)?

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Yes, it still has the twelve capacity bars on the right. I bought the car in September of 2014 after it came off a lease in the Seattle area. I did not wait 22 months before driving it...I'm not that patient! I did not intentionally enter the 28 Feb 2013 date; don't know where it came from. Maybe my forum join date?

GetOffYourGas said:

You said in the original post that you would complete your journey with 50% charge remaining. How are you measuring this in a 2011? It doesn't report percentage on the dash.

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I got the 50% number from the carwings website.

GetOffYourGas said:

1kWh = 1kW running for 1 hour. Or it can be 2kW running for half an hour. Or 500W for 2 hours. 1kWh is a unit of energy whereas 1kW is a unit of power (energy over time).

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Thanks, that was helpful.

jswilson said:

Don't use the automatic climate control. Turn it on in defrost window + feet mode at 18 - 20 degrees C (65 F) and set the fan at 1 or 2 bars.

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I have been trying that trick and it really works well. The cabin temp is brisk but the window stays defrosted and I even get some heat out of the deal. I definitely keep the winter coat on. Sometimes I splurge and take my winter hat off. I used to ride my Honda Helix 250 Scooter back and forth to work until roads wouldn't allow it, so I'm familiar with being cold on my commute. Even without the heater on, the LEAF is waaaay warmer than on a motorcycle! My wife, on the other hand, insists that a good car heater should be able to roast marshmallows over the dashboard.

I think my range panic was mostly a result of a cranked heater (ICE habits die hard). It's nice to know that I can still get some heat out of it without draining the battery.

I got into a friend's ICE car recently who had her heater cranked and I thought my face was going to melt. I'm pretty sure it was 90F in her car.

Didn't someone mention an alcohol-fired heater modification? Personally I would have no problem burning something to keep warm in the winter without taking the range hit.

jswilson said:

Cold weather amateurs! :roll:

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Brrr. As of tonight you guys are 25 deg F colder than Helena Montana. And we're at 11F!

Didn't someone mention an alcohol-fired heater modification? Personally I would have no problem burning something to keep warm in the winter without taking the range hit.