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speedymike

Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
13
My wife and I are retired and rarely travel more than 5 miles away. As urbanites everything is so close to us. Thus even though we live SE of Phoenix we think a leaf is a good fit. We are considering two 2012 Leaf SL's. One sat for 6 months, leased for one year (9,000 miles), then went to current dealer last Thanksgiving. The other leaf was leased soon after production (25,000 miles), and was recently turned in. The first shows 67 mile range, the second shows 63. Both are identical in every other respect including 11 battery capacity bars. Which might be the better vehicle?
 
You are going to have to get reading from a Gid meter on both cars to answer that question... Phoenix is brutal on Leaf Batteries... All being relatively equal, I'd likely go with the lower mileage one since you almost certainly will hit the 5/60 capacity warranty replacement point on either one...

speedymike said:
Which might be the better vehicle?
 
Either car would probably give 50 miles of range at this time. However, both have undoubtedly suffered significant battery degradation. No way around it, because of the summer temps in Phoenix.

Do a search on Leaf Spy. For less than $100, you can have the tools you need to accurately evaluate the two Leafs. The battery capacity bars are simply too coarse to give you good info. And the range on the DTE meter is bogus. It is more of an indicator of how the last few miles on the car were driven than how good the battery is.

The car which was parked for six months could be good or bad. If it sat that long with the battery fully charged (which is common at dealerships), it may have suffered quite a bit of degradation, despite accumulating no miles.

Don't pay a lot for a used Leaf. Resale value is pretty poor for 2011-2012 cars, particularly in Phoenix. I'd say $12k to $14k.

If you can stand the limited range, the Leaf is a nice car. Smooth, quiet, easy to drive, good a/c, and you'll never have to visit a gas station again.

-Karl
 
speedymike said:
My wife and I are retired and rarely travel more than 5 miles away. As urbanites everything is so close to us. Thus even though we live SE of Phoenix we think a leaf is a good fit. We are considering two 2012 Leaf SL's. One sat for 6 months, leased for one year (9,000 miles), then went to current dealer last Thanksgiving. The other leaf was leased soon after production (25,000 miles), and was recently turned in. The first shows 67 mile range, the second shows 63. Both are identical in every other respect including 11 battery capacity bars. Which might be the better vehicle?
Both may be in better shape than typical for Phoenix. But you have to read the LEAF data to know.
Five miles maximum is ideal range for LEAF for a significant time.
But no one knows what the capacity degradation does after it falls below 65%. Could fall off the cliff. We just don't know.
Sadly it appears even Nissan doesn't know :cry: :cry:
 
Thanks for the responses. I just ordered a ELM327 bluetooth dongle. The second car mentioned spent its life thus far in San Diego. The first car concerns me in that a year of sitting may have had an effect that won't show up on any kind of scanning tool. In test driving on a whim, I was totally surprised by the Leaf. It was a fun car to drive.
 
Whether car 1 has 16% degradation and car 2 has 22% is irrelevant where you live. Regardless which car you get, expect a free battery replacement in the next couple summers. I'd get the low mileage Leaf.

What prices are they giving you?
 
On a basic probability basis, it is a no-brainer and the lower mileage is the one. If there is one thing worse than sitting in hot weather it is being used in hot weather! That is, so long as it is not sitting with a high SOC but you have no reason to know if the other one hasn't sat at high SOC either.

'Just sitting' appears to be no particular issue. The issues are SOC and temp whilst, so this alone doesn't help you decide between the two.
 
Hello all -
I was going to post a similar question but saw this so I'm tagging on...

1) If a '13 Leaf has been sitting in the dealership lot for several months in MN cold weather (I don't know if they take extra care of EVs or just let them sit with the rest of the other new cars), even though there aren't alot of miles on it, should I still be concerned w/ battery degradation? how bad could it get?

2) It was mentioned that I should get an SOC meter to know the real battery gauge on any Leaf I consider leasing/purchasing. Is there a simple SOC that I can get that's super easy to use (I'm hopelessly un-techie. i'm one of those who just got a smartphone recently and don't even know how to use it well).

3) Why are new '13 Leaf prices almost the same as '14 still? I understand because Nissan didn't do major revision from the '13 model, but even '15s are available in some parts of the country soon, if not already. Normally, older models are significantly lower priced (even brand new ones). Don't older models just automatically lose value as time goes by, I'd think it would be especially applicable with EVs due to the battery degradation? This still bothers me so I'm posting my puzzlement once again to see if you wonderful folks can help me understand.

4) lastly, there are a few '13 Leafs in my areas listed under "used cars" even though there are only 8, 25, ... 825 miles on them, the ads say they still qualify for the $7,500 tax credit - haven't been "registered" i guess.) The current Nissan incentives ($3,500 cash rebate+0% financing) don't apply to these ones, correct? they must be demo cars for people to test drive, etc. I think. they're better priced but w/o those incentives, maybe it's become a wash.

thanks in advance for your comments!
Peace
 
Peace said:
Hello all -
I was going to post a similar question but saw this so I'm tagging on...

1) If a '13 Leaf has been sitting in the dealership lot for several months in MN cold weather (I don't know if they take extra care of EVs or just let them sit with the rest of the other new cars), even though there aren't alot of miles on it, should I still be concerned w/ battery degradation? how bad could it get?

In Minnesota you're probably okay. Our first LEAF sat for several months in fall weather with little driving and capacity was full. Years of sitting, especially in hot weather at at 100% charge, will hurt capacity. (Of course it won't stay 100% - it will reduce over time if not used and need to be recharged.)

Peace said:
3) Why are new '13 Leaf prices almost the same as '14 still? I understand because Nissan didn't do major revision from the '13 model, but even '15s are available in some parts of the country soon, if not already. Normally, older models are significantly lower priced (even brand new ones). Don't older models just automatically lose value as time goes by, I'd think it would be especially applicable with EVs due to the battery degradation? This still bothers me so I'm posting my puzzlement once again to see if you wonderful folks can help me understand.
Wish I knew. Speculating because (1) they aren't that different and (2) the 2013s have the 80% charge option that was dropped in 2014. But if you get a 2013 make sure you get the rear view or around view camera if you want it ... that's the only year it wasn't put on every LEAF.

Peace said:
4) lastly, there are a few '13 Leafs in my areas listed under "used cars" even though there are only 8, 25, ... 825 miles on them, the ads say they still qualify for the $7,500 tax credit - haven't been "registered" i guess.) The current Nissan incentives ($3,500 cash rebate+0% financing) don't apply to these ones, correct? they must be demo cars for people to test drive, etc. I think. they're better priced but w/o those incentives, maybe it's become a wash.

A car is used if it has been registered/titled in a state. At that point tax credits, leases, and manufacturer incentives are out the door. If it has not been registered and titled, even if it has an absurd number of miles on it, it is technically new. You can ask about this to be sure.

If you do get a new car with high miles specifically ask to have the warranty clock be set to start from your purchase date, not the date in which it was first put into demo service. If you don't ask you may get a surprise later when the warranty expires sooner than you expected.
 
[
quote="TomT"]The car which was parked for six months could be good or bad. If it sat that long with the battery fully charged (which is common at dealerships), it may have suffered quite a bit of degradation, despite accumulating no miles.Don't pay a lot for a used Leaf. Resale value is pretty poor for 2011-2012 cars, particularly in Phoenix. I'd say $12k to $14k.
[/quote]

sorry, my first question was already answered. So, even w/ no mile accumalated, the new '13 may have suffered quite a bit of degradation anyway (sign - I was hoping for a different answer). So, if one can afford to buy/lease now, one should just get the current/'14 model Leaf, since even a brand new '13 model, might be bad.

what should a used '13 SL model cost now, to be considered a good deal? say if it has 2,800 miles on it? original invoice was 33,485 and retail 35,690.
Peace
 
thanks cgaydos, for your super fast reply! they're very helpful - I 'll keep them in mind when I deal w/ the dealership tomorrow (sign- feel like I'm doing battles soon)

I thought that the warranties are between the manufacturer and you - not the dealership?
P.
 
In answer to an earlier question, the low mileage leaf is marketed at $19,997. The high mileage leaf is below Blue Book at $16,900.
 
Those prices seem pretty high for a used LEAF with a very degraded battery. Since you live in the Phoenix area, I will recommend that you lease a 2015 LEAF and then buy it out if you like it.
 
Well, I on the low mileage one I offered $18,000 (more in line with blue book and vmr) and the lowest he went is $19,277. That ends that. In a day or two may take a shot at the other.
 
Those both seem too high compared to the price of a new one (w/new battery) after tax credits (assuming you qualify for the full $7500 Federal tax credit). And, nobody in their right mind should be paying MSRP on a Leaf right now.

Are either of these Nissan certified pre-owned w/some extra warranty protection (http://www.nissanusa.com/cpo/warranty.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) or just the remainder of the factory warranty?
 
Peace said:
thanks cgaydos, for your super fast reply! they're very helpful - I 'll keep them in mind when I deal w/ the dealership tomorrow (sign- feel like I'm doing battles soon)

I thought that the warranties are between the manufacturer and you - not the dealership?
P.

Peace: if you're ready to buy and buying new, then I strongly suggest you don't go to the dealerships first. As we've discussed often on this board, the best method is to send an email to each of the dealers in your area stating exactly what you want, say that you are ready to buy now, and ask for a bid. I usually give a cell phone contact as well as email to better enable the process - sometimes you get lucky and a dealer really needs to move a car now and will underbid all the others.

Once you start with that you should get numerous replies and then have to ad lib based on the responses, which will vary greatly depending on the local supply/demand situation. With LEAFs most people report that some dealers will show a lot of interest and as the discussion goes on will lower the bid, eventually leading you to the best option.

Be sure to ask for the out-the-door price with all fees and extras. When you come to agreement set up an appointment to buy the car and ask them to send you a scanned copy of the agreement in advance - this greatly reduces the possibility of last minute extra fees.

This method has a challenge if you also want to trade in a car. To be honest you're usually better selling a car as a separate deal, but sometimes a trade-in makes the most sense when you consider the time factor. If you have a trade in mention that up front and give them the basics of the car - the VIN, model year, options, condition, mileage, color. Certainly be honest about the condition and know that in these days of CarFax that any major repairs will be on record. The dealer can give you an estimate sight unseen, but of course can't commit until they see the car, and you can bet that they'll always drop the price they'll give you for your trade-in once you are on the lot. In this case I'd have 2 or 3 possible dealer purchases lined up so I could walk from the first one in case they downgraded the value of the trade-in too much.

Always remember to walk away from the deal if in doubt. ALWAYS. You are in control of the transaction although dealers are very skilled at making you feel out of control.

Finally, if you are buying be aware of limitations of the federal tax credit. First, you have to have at least $7500 on your 1040 taxes paid during the year to get the whole credit - otherwise it just offsets what you pay. (1040 taxes include Social Security and Medicare as well as Federal Income Taxes.) Second, if you claim the federal credit you will in most cases not be able to claim the 30% credit for a home EVSE (a.k.a. "charger") in the same tax year. The $7500 credit isn't subject to AMT but it changes the numbers or that any other credits which are subject to AMT aren't likely to go through. This isn't so much of a big deal anymore now that people commonly pay much less than $1k to get a home charger installed.
 
speedymike said:
Well, I on the low mileage one I offered $18,000 (more in line with blue book and vmr) and the lowest he went is $19,277. That ends that. In a day or two may take a shot at the other.

Some rough math
+28,276 New 2014 S invoice (you could negotiate lower)
-3,500 June incentive and 0% fin
-7,500 fed tax credit (assuming you're household will owe this minimum for 2014)

=17,276

If all these apply then I don't see the point in buying used
 
In my situation my tax obligation will not be close to $7,500 therefore it represents a cost for a very similar vehicle to previous years. Given my annual mileage (2,000?) a cheaper used vehicle will be fine but I totally concur that if someone will owe enough taxes then by all means go new.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Leaf...ce213706b&item=261490962539&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Here's an example of a sold LEAF listing in Scottsdale, AZ on ebay. 2011 with 42k miles for $12,900

Some used LEAFs sold for as much as $17,000

Good luck finding a good price, and as little as you drive, I'd say you will love your new/used LEAF for a long time. And with your driving habits, you don't need to worry about installing a home charging station, 110 plug that comes with the car will be fine.
 
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