Swap Mustang for Leaf? Anxiety switching to EV

First post here. I've been reading the forums for the last few days, but still unsure if an EV is right for me. I'll try not to type too much, but writing everything down also helps gather my thoughts. I break things into categories, but I may ramble a bit.

In favor of leasing an EV I mostly drive in city with a very short commute. Not in favor, doing a 150+ roundtrip once a month. Once a month isn't too bad for that, so it could be doable. Also, now and then I may have to commute to a meeting 84+ miles away for work. That's only happened 2-3 times in 3 years, so I could always get a rental in an emergency.


CURRENT DRIVING HABITS AND LOCATION:
Work commute: 3 miles (6 round trip)
Lunch break: 2-3 miles (4-6 round trip)
Miles driving in the last 27-28 months: 20k (Fits within most leases)
Average miles per day based on above: 23
Location: Modesto California, Central Valley (Never too cold, but hot summers)
Home: Renting condo with garage, but unsure how long I'll be there.

VEHICLE:
2012 V6 Mustang Auto
Remaining Loan Payments: Roughly 3.5 years at $384 a month
Loan Payoff: 15.5k (Private sale value around $19-$20k)
City MPG: 13-15mpg (Due to my very short commute and stopping in town, 80-90% of driving)
Highway MPG: 26-28mp (This pretty decent for 305hp at 70mph, but only 20% of driving)

I've enjoyed the Mustang for two years, but I'm finding MPG to be terrible for my short city drives. It's also not very practical for storage or passengers.

NOTE: Before the Mustang I hardly traveled. My first car was a new 2002 Elantra GT, after 10 years, it only had 30-35k miles on it. I'm getting out more, traveling to the bay area often, especially to see my girlfriend there.

LEAF DESIRES:
Lease without planning to buy
Hoping for $230-$269 after taxes a month, before CA $2500 rebate
No Downpayment
24-36 months
Quick Charge
Cruise Control
Navigation


CONCERNS WITH EV

150/180 mile roundtrips and Quick Charging Reliability:
I plan to travel from Modesto to San Jose/Milpitas once a month. The trip from Modesto to Milpitas is anywhere from 75 miles to 95 miles. 75 miles when using HWY84 in Livermore through the country. A charge stop will be required, a quick charge preferably, so this has me concerned.

Owners that make regular trips like this, how have you dealt with this?

While writing this, I realized while there are plenty of charge options when arriving in the Bay Area, not so much when returning to Modesto. This means I need to use a quick charge as close to home as possible, which is around 50-56 miles in Pleasanton/Livermore. If those were not available, it'd have to find an alternative and possibly wait much longer.

Who knows, waiting at a charge station could be therapeutic since you have an excuse to just relax, read a book, etc, lol.

SAN JOSE AND EVs
So, anyone in San Jose find the city EV friendly? I think I read there's free parking and probably plenty of charging stations.

APARTMENTS
I'm concerned if I move out of my current condo, I may struggle with charging options at apartments. This can make things difficult if I can't charge at home. This is something I should research in my area, or I may be limited to renting homes with garages.

Did an EV change anyone's rental habits?

LEASE
Should I lock myself into 3 years? Things are moving so fast now and in 1-2 years, EVs will have more range. But if you go with a 2 year lease, you may not qualify for certain rebate or credits.

OVERALL
I feel I'm a good fit for an EV despite the inconvenience of a long trip now and then. If anyone has a similar situation as me that can share their experience after the switch to EV, that would be great

Finally, while saving on gas is a nice motivator, it's mostly to help pay off debt quicker. Replacing the $384 Mustang payment with a reliable/practical car that doesn't need gas along with a lower payment will definitely aid towards my credit card snowball payments. I'd sell my mustang and buy a used car, but I'd be limited to $4 cars, and I just don't feel comfortable with that. I want to avoid a downpayment too so I can use whatever I sell the mustang for towards debt. By the time the lease is over, I'll be a much better financial situation.

You will need a 3 yr lease to get the $2,500 CA rebate.

smkettner said:

You will need a 3 yr lease to get the $2,500 CA rebate.

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Is the $2500 rebate worth it vs having access to a cheaper leaf by then? Lots of used leafs on the market in two more years time. Also a newer higher KW Leaf and Telsa Model E expected to drive down resale prices of the 24KW Leaf.

You sound like a good fit for the Volt. Particularly coming from the Mustang.

Youre biggest obstacle is not so much range, but your ability to charge at home. If not for that, the Leaf will work well for most of your needs. You can either subscribe to a car sharing service for those trips to the Bay Area.

Or an even more eco-friendly method is to take Altamont Commuter Express over the pass into the Bay area and possibly another form of public transit, and have your girlfriend pick you up at the station nearest her home.

Speaking as one who is satisfied with my Leaf for 3 years now I'd advise you to get a Volt.

brian123 said:

150/180 mile roundtrips and Quick Charging Reliability:
I plan to travel from Modesto to San Jose/Milpitas once a month. The trip from Modesto to Milpitas is anywhere from 75 miles to 95 miles. 75 miles when using HWY84 in Livermore through the country. A charge stop will be required, a quick charge preferably, so this has me concerned.

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It's 50 miles Modesto to Livermore and from there you have ample charging stations, so it's doable. But one QC station in Livermore is Blink so it could be down permanently at any time leaving you with a single point of failure. What if the eVgo station is down? What if you get there and there's already one car waiting while an obstinate driver insists on charging to 100% no matter how long it takes? If you have to wait an hour can you be an hour late? Or can you always leave an hour early just in case?

Returning to Modesto you might feel like charging above 80% yourself after your battery has a few years of degradation since there are no other QC stations past Livermore. You'd drive a Volt to San Jose mostly on gasoline though with better MPG than the Mustang.

Who knows, waiting at a charge station could be therapeutic since you have an excuse to just relax, read a book, etc, lol.

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True. Also a good reason to buy a prepaid Mifi device if needed for unlimited Internet data while you wait.

SAN JOSE AND EVs
So, anyone in San Jose find the city EV friendly? I think I read there's free parking and probably plenty of charging stations.

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See for yourself: http://www.plugshare.com/

APARTMENTS
I'm concerned if I move out of my current condo, I may struggle with charging options at apartments. This can make things difficult if I can't charge at home. This is something I should research in my area, or I may be limited to renting homes with garages.

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I wouldn't own a Leaf without a dedicated home L2 charging station. Changing building codes may eventually make that the norm for rental but for now you can't count on it. You could recharge a Volt nightly on 120V for your 23 miles of driving, and on normal days you wouldn't burn a drop of gas.

LEASE
Should I lock myself into 3 years? Things are moving so fast now and in 1-2 years, EVs will have more range. But if you go with a 2 year lease, you may not qualify for certain rebate or credits.

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Things are announced and shown at car shows much faster than they are sold on car lots. I'd go for 3 years and the rebates. If you get a car that meets 100% of your needs today, what does it hurt you if they release a car tomorrow that meets 200% of your needs?

Finally, while saving on gas is a nice motivator, it's mostly to help pay off debt quicker. Replacing the $384 Mustang payment with a reliable/practical car that doesn't need gas along with a lower payment will definitely aid towards my credit card snowball payments.

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Right now you're paying about 26 cents/mile or $182/month for gas. With a Leaf you might be paying 3 cents/mile or $21/month, or with a Volt 6 cents/mile or $42/month. That's still $140/month savings to offset your lease payments. Volt gives you less space than Leaf but probably as much or more than your Mustang.

Given your short commute, why do you need an EV for it? Just get a bicycle and keep or sell the Mustang as you wish, for longer trips. Even if you're completely out of shape, Modesto is pretty flat. Better for your health, better for the environment and better for your wallet, as you won't be buying gas, oil changes etc. for all those short, lousy MPG trips. Even if you don't ride on rainy days, you'll still be riding around 200 days/yr.

If you just have to have an EV of some kind, then I agree with others that a PHEV would be a better choice for you at the moment. Volt, Fusion/C-Max Energi, soon Audi A3 e-tron Sportwagen, and eventually Golf GTE would be possible options. Or you could get an e-bike or scooter. Either will allow you to easily charge on 120V, and most e-bikes at least will let you take the battery pack with you to charge, eliminating any charging issues when looking at places to live.

Thanks for all the replies, a lot to think about.

RonDawg, yes, having a place to charge it at home is a big concern and something I should really think about. If I can't move somewhere that has a 240 charging option, using 120 might will fall short after a long trip.

As for the Volt suggestion, it has come across my mind. It would require a downpayment, which would likely be from trading in my Mustang. I just had a quick call with a Turlock Chevrolet dealership after inquiring about the Costco Auto Program. With the Volt, in town I'd likely be able to survive solely on electric. I also just learned you can change to the motor on demand. So if I'm about to do my San Jose trip, I can switch on the motor right on the freeway, saving the battery for city driving when I get there.

I was only really going to considering leasing for an EV, as it makes sense with the evolving tech and you don't have to worry about range decrease over time, while with a Volt, that's not really a big issue. With the lease price for a Volt getting closer to a normal financed payment, I'm looking at the buy option for curiosity.

Though, I'm confused with the finance estimator at Chevrolet for the Volt for buying, not a lease. Say with a few options it has a MSRP of $37,780, with no down payment, it shows a monthly payment based on $30,280 financed. That's $7,500 less, as if they applied the Federal Tax credit immediately to the loan. I'm puzzled by this.

It seems I have a few paths to choose from.
1: Save the most by selling the Mustang, getting a cheap used car, plus bike when possible.
2: Avoid a used car with a low priced sub-compact or EV lease. Lower payment than my Mustang, better mileage. The Mustang could be used for downpayment or sold to pay debt.
3: Finally, buy a new car, but something with long term savings, such as the Volt. I may have the same payment, but save with gas and other benefits.
4: Just keep paying for the Mustang and and own it in 3.5 years.

Got some long term projection to do.

brian123 said:

Though, I'm confused with the finance estimator at Chevrolet for the Volt for buying, not a lease. Say with a few options it has a MSRP of $37,780, with no down payment, it shows a monthly payment based on $30,280 financed. That's $7,500 less, as if they applied the Federal Tax credit immediately to the loan. I'm puzzled by this.

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You should be puzzled, because AFAIK with a purchase, the $7500 Federal tax credit is NOT immediately applied, unlike with leasing through the manufacturer's own financing (and even then, not all manufacturers pass the credit onto the consumer). You have to apply for it this time next year, and whether you will get the entire $7500 will depend on factors such as your actual tax liability for the year.

RonDawg said:

You should be puzzled, because AFAIK with a purchase, the $7500 Federal tax credit is NOT immediately applied, unlike with leasing through the manufacturer's own financing (and even then, not all manufacturers pass the credit onto the consumer). You have to apply for it this time next year, and whether you will get the entire $7500 will depend on factors such as your actual tax liability for the year.

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That's what I figured, but annoyingly got my hopes up at first. I tested the mobile site and the estimate doesn't seem to have the flaw, nor does their Spark EV on both sites. And yes, I understand it's a credit and not rebate. I figured if I buy a Volt, I'd change my tax withholdings to maximize what I owe, and I'm doing some freelance this year that will be taxed.

Also to note for Volts and similar type of vehicles, I'm seeing reports those HOV green stickers are basically gone, while The HOV white stickers for EVs are unlimited. So that's probably going to effect plug-in hybrids a bit.

brian123 said:

Also to note for Volts and similar type of vehicles, I'm seeing reports those HOV green stickers are basically gone, while The HOV white stickers for EVs are unlimited. So that's probably going to effect plug-in hybrids a bit.

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Right, good catch. There will be panic buying and dealer gauging starting any time now. Then there will be an oversupply of PHEVs that will pencil out as less valuable once the HOV lane privilege is gone for newly sold cars. If you're thinking about purchasing a Volt, it will be a very valuable used car for resale between now and the expiration of the green stickers. However, some of this craziness might be moderated in your semi-rural environs compared with the megalopoli of So Cal and the Bay Area.

Boomer23 said:

brian123 said:

Also to note for Volts and similar type of vehicles, I'm seeing reports those HOV green stickers are basically gone, while The HOV white stickers for EVs are unlimited. So that's probably going to effect plug-in hybrids a bit.

Click to expand...

Right, good catch. There will be panic buying and dealer gauging starting any time now. Then there will be an oversupply of PHEVs that will pencil out as less valuable once the HOV lane privilege is gone for newly sold cars. If you're thinking about purchasing a Volt, it will be a very valuable used car for resale between now and the expiration of the green stickers. However, some of this craziness might be moderated in your semi-rural environs compared with the megalopoli of So Cal and the Bay Area.

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Since the OP has no need to commute in Bay Area rush hour traffic, a non-green sticker Volt, new once the stickers are officially gone (any day now), the value drops and the dealers are getting desperate; or (2011) used, could be an excellent deal. Pre-2013 models you won't have the 'Hold' button, but can still use 'mountain' mode to hold some capacity for urban use.

Hummm…a lot of people trying to steer you away from the Leaf to a Volt. I love our Leaf. And, it is only 82 miles from Modesto to San Jose. You will probably want to make one stop for at least a partial cargo along the way. You will definitely want to get the Quick Charge package.

Now, about your condo. We also are renting a condo and we just plug the Leaf into the 110 v outlet. That's do-able because I work from home, so the car is plugged in most of the time and we also rarely go more than 40 miles in a day, so we can keep it fully charged. Your normal commute is very short, so you will probably be okay even if your employer does not have a charging station.

I'd say, go for it!

Well I think the Leaf is perfect and 120v/wall outlet charging is more then enough for your daily needs but if you REALLY feel the need to get a Volt then go here..

http://gm-volt.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?24-Buying-Leasing-amp-Selling-Chevy-Volt

This is where to get the deals on it...

I goofed on my daily commute distance. It's actually 1.7 miles one way, I must of read something wrong on google maps. Doh! Though, an example today, going to Starbucks, I probably doubled that. In the next year I'll likely be at a new home, which the distance will be on average of 6 miles. While the commute to work is short, everything else from Costco, the Mall, stores, are 10-20 miles away. While there's range anxiety with an EV, I have gas anxiety a lot more often, which can prevent me from doing a short drive in town. So I'm imagining if I had a LEAF in the garage, there won't be that negative feeling each time I think about taking it out.

The Volt is very enticing with it's near perfect compromise of both worlds, but is more expensive. The next step is probably to sit in a LEAF and Volt to see how I fit and how it feels. The LEAF will probably be a more pleasant experience with my height of 6' 2". From many reviews, people describe the Volt as claustrophobic, low roof and poor visibility. Most LEAF reviews talk about how open and airy it is. Then the Volt also only seats four compared to the LEAF's five. With a group of friends, the LEAF isn't going to be a top choice for a long distance trip, but neither will the Volt if it can't fit everyone or a last minute friend. Currently, the Mustang isn't a good fit for even quick food run with 3 people.

For trips, I have a family in town with garages that I could swap cars with, so that's always a possibility. Anyone ever do that?

While I love my Leaf, I don't think it should be the ONLY car for anyone; also, if you don't have a reliable home charging option, you shouldn't be thinking about ANY type of EV.

To be brutally honest, I think you focus on reducing debt (buy a cheap/used car or something) and save gas by walking to work with a commute that short.

@ Brian: Maybe you should download the Recargo app or the PlugShare app. The Recargo app will let you choose which charging ports you have (Leaf would have the J-1772 and the CHAdeMO ports). Then you can see where your charging stations are along the way.

I may borrow a bike from my brother, 2 miles away, to try out biking to work a few times. They may just leave it in my garage so they can just drive to my place where there's a 4 mile park they want to ride in.

A few days ago there was a nice event promoting electric cars in Modesto, too bad I didn't know about it and could of seen several vehicles and learned a few things.

http://www.modbee.com/2014/04/03/3275017/group-gathers-in-modesto-to-promote.html

Reading the article, it's nice to know NRG eVgo is paying attention to the valley based on these quotes:

Terry O’Day is vice president of NRG eVgo, which is working to create a privately funded and comprehensive electric vehicle ecosystem. He said NRG eVgo is hiring and investing $10 million to install 20 fast-charging stations throughout the Valley. These larger charging stations would be able to power up vehicles within 30 minutes. O’Day said it is also looking to install about 1,000 small electric charging stations in the Valley at places such as shopping centers and apartment complexes.

He said NRG eVgo expects to break ground on the first of these charging stations in the Valley this summer. The locations have not been announced.

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If I choose to get a LEAF, it would be easy to stay in the condo I'm renting right now and current roommate. I'm friends with the owner and would have no problem getting a charger installed. If I'm there for another year or two, hopefully by then the promised NRG eVgo network will be budding. I'll also have to look into that San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District $3,000 rebate for residents here.

As for my debt, it's nothing too high, about $10-$12k I'm trying to pay off after putting a big dent in it last year. Even with my car current payment, I can put 400-600 in snowball payments to it. I'm also working like crazy with my first freelance contract that will hopefully earn me an extra $4k in the next 3 months and more throughout the year, but it will be taxed. Because of that freelancing, I'm now too busy to do any big trips.

As mentioned, I've paid off a considerable about of debt last year, but it has lost steam through random events, which is why I'm now looking at my car. Anything to help give me spare change to keep my snowball payments on track. I may take a hit selling my Mustang, but a goal of being debt free is enticing. After all the research and advice, I don't think I'm desperate enough to get a cheap $4k used car considering the stress over reliability, or the time needed to bike everywhere. Nor the time to look for that perfect used car with my freelancing in the way.

I've been looking at Plugshare, nothing much in my area besides dealers. Though, I need to check out about a Nissan Quick Charge station that has randomly popped up. It's in the middle of no where outside of Modesto, about 13 miles away from my home. Has a number to call, which I'll do soon:
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/44444

I agree if your funds are limited or you can, dump the Mustange and possibly score an awesome lease deal on the Leaf and then pick up an econo Honda or other gazillion MPG 2dr vehicle for super long trips or emergency runs.

My wife still has her original 1st car.... 91 4cy Camry and it's pushing like 360K+ miles but it'll cruise all day at 80+mph and get 32mpg. Paint is shot, but it sits down at her parents house and I drive it once every few months to keep it fresh.

you can pick up good old vehicles for like $1500-$3000

brian123 said:

I may borrow a bike from my brother, 2 miles away, to try out biking to work a few times. They may just leave it in my garage so they can just drive to my place where there's a 4 mile park they want to ride in.

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Borrowing is definitely the way to go while you try it out. Do it for a week at least, so you can explore different routes, get your act together and get over any aches from unused muscles. Make a practice trip on a weekend day first. And whatever else you do, borrow or buy a helmet.

As far as that goes, 1.7 miles one-way is about a 30-35 minute walk. Probably more than you want to do regularly, but certainly doable.

brian123 said:

A few days ago there was a nice event promoting electric cars in Modesto, too bad I didn't know about it and could of seen several vehicles and learned a few things.

http://www.modbee.com/2014/04/03/3275017/group-gathers-in-modesto-to-promote.html

<snip>

If I choose to get a LEAF, it would be easy to stay in the condo I'm renting right now and current roommate. I'm friends with the owner and would have no problem getting a charger installed. If I'm there for another year or two, hopefully by then the promised NRG eVgo network will be budding. I'll also have to look into that San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District $3,000 rebate for residents here.

As for my debt, it's nothing too high, about $10-$12k I'm trying to pay off after putting a big dent in it last year. Even with my car current payment, I can put 400-600 in snowball payments to it. I'm also working like crazy with my first freelance contract that will hopefully earn me an extra $4k in the next 3 months and more throughout the year, but it will be taxed. Because of that freelancing, I'm now too busy to do any big trips.

As mentioned, I've paid off a considerable about of debt last year, but it has lost steam through random events, which is why I'm now looking at my car. Anything to help give me spare change to keep my snowball payments on track. I may take a hit selling my Mustang, but a goal of being debt free is enticing. After all the research and advice, I don't think I'm desperate enough to get a cheap $4k used car considering the stress over reliability, or the time needed to bike everywhere. Nor the time to look for that perfect used car with my freelancing in the way.

I've been looking at Plugshare, nothing much in my area besides dealers. Though, I need to check out about a Nissan Quick Charge station that has randomly popped up. It's in the middle of no where outside of Modesto, about 13 miles away from my home. Has a number to call, which I'll do soon:
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/44444

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Brian, since you seem fairly open-minded and would like to pay down some debt, before you make any major decisions I'd heartily recommend you pick up a copy of "How to Live Well without Owning a Car". I see the Modesto Library has a copy:

http://63.200.101.19/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=1D9Q9W8517514.98854&profile=mdp&uri=link=3100006~!472884~!3100001~!3100002&aspect=subtab109&menu=search&ri=1&source=~!horizon&term=How+to+live+well+without+owning+a+car+%3A+save+money%2C+breathe+easier%2C+and+get+more+mileage+out+of+life+%2F&index=PALLTI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or there's Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Well-Without-Owning/dp/1580087574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whether you ultimately decide to keep your current set-up, get an EV, go car-lite or carless, walk/bike/use transit etc., this will give you lots of real world examples and ideas that you can try out at low cost (like borrowing a bike). Good luck with your investigation.