Altima Owner Considering a Leaf

I will cut to the chase.

-Currently own a 2008 Nissan Altima 2.5SL with about 73k miles, the car works fine mechanically gets around 25mpg in mixed driving..
-Spent $3k upgrading the audio system in 2009 and a few hundred more in 2012 to add sound deadening materials...
-Car has been paid off for about 2 years. Operating costs are relatively low. Fuel costs here in Dallas are ~$3.26 / gallon as of December 2013. I spend on average $85-105 a month in fuel. Had some warranty work where almost my edu reprogrammed / entire exhaust system less the muffer was replaced for free a month ago by Nissan due to a Technical Service Bulletin (and 3 leaks in the system that no longer exist). So in some ways the car drives better now than it has the past few years. My extended warranty runs for 1 more year, CVT warranty is good for 10yrs/120k miles.
-Trade-in value at KBB is around $9000 with current market values.

I am also in the process of getting out of student loan debt to the tune of $36k. I plan to get this paid off in less than 36 months from now, paying on average $1k/mo. I'm generally against leasing but if the offer price is low enough and the tax credit is applied immediately it makes more sense to lease vs buy IMHO. Plus I'll have a big check that I can apply directly to my loans and pay those off faster, presumably before the lease period is over.

I honestly believe electric cars are the wave of the future. Over the next 10 years assuming fuel prices remain the same I will have burned over $12k in gasoline. I hate paying so much money at the pump. The environmental aspect is secondary but still important to me.

Being that I live in Texas, we are used to high temperatures as in high 90s or over 100s for weeks at a time. I'm concerned both about overall range drops in extremes (cold or hot) especially with some of the stories coming out of Pheonix. I also don't exactly need a new car right now, but after 6 years I'm getting a little bit tired of driving the same set of wheels day after day. I have a garage so L1 topping off won't be a problem and neither would L2 if I hire an electrician to do the work.

The big question I think is when should I buy / lease and anyone else been on the fence. The charging infrastructure here is developing slowly but there are ~15 L2 chargers in a 5 mile radius of my home. My work commute is about 21 mi. If I take the side roads I pay no tolls. Also a current incentive for a year's worth of charging through evgo for free.

Last but not least, the early adopter tax. The next revision of leafs or extended life batteries should be able allow the driver to reliably get over 100mi on a single charge. It might make the most sense to wait, but in the meantime the value of my current vehicle goes down and eventually the 7500 tax credit may no longer exist. Thoughts? Also yes I do bounce back around with different ideas in my head..

1. Lease don't buy especially in hot climates
2. Check out the battery aging model on the wiki - http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. If you lease, the tax incentive is applied to the lease not your taxes
4. Lease anyway the technology is changing fast enough that buying doesn't make sense, I wish I had leased.
5. Your 42 mile round trip shouldn't be a problem. With a 1.5 year old battery I can make the 20 miles from here to KU on a single 100% charge - 70 on the way out, 55 on the way back so 60 each way would have been golden.
6. Public infrastructure...meh...that shouldn't be the deciding factor unless it's the only way you can recharge the car and if that is the case it probably isn't the right time.
7. DFW and Houston have a plethora of DCQC and public charging - http://www.plugshare.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems like you're a good candidate for a Leaf, go for it.

I would get that student loan debt taken care of first. Since your current car is paid off, relatively recent in vintage, and presumably reliable, it would not make economic sense for you to get a new car at this time, even a Leaf. Your fuel costs are too low for it to pay off. It would be a different story if you drove a "Cowboy Cadillac" (luxury pickup truck) like many of your fellow Texans.

Plus since you live in a hot climate, Nissan has been promising a "hot climate battery" which if true would survive the Texas heat better than the current battery. I would definitely wait for this battery to be released.

As far as the $7500 rebate, Nissan would need to sell (I believe) 200k EVs before the Federal tax credit goes away. I don't think they have broken the 50k barrier in the US yet, and the car has been available for 3 years now.

I'd pay off the loans first. I'm a total car nut, have had too many to count. I drove old beaters for the better part of 15+ years...part of it was due to paying off student loans, then when those are done I chose to spend disposable money on weekend toy cars. I finally decided to invest in a new car, and my LEAF was the choice. But while the financial numbers are phenomenal compared to a new ICE engine car, they're still not quite as cheap as a reliable old beater. Reliable being the operative word there.

If your real issue is boredom with the Altima, sell it and get something else for the same price. What is it you want in your next car? Something sporty? Good fuel mileage? There are lots of decent used choices out there that'll keep you happy until your loans are paid off.

If you want an EV but still like your Altima, lease a Leaf and keep the Altima for really hot weather and longer trips. It's economically unsound, but economics is not our reason for being!

I'd also consider the interest on your student loans. If leasing a Leaf now means selling your current car and paying off an extra 9 grand, that could be significant. A lot of my loans are 6%. That's another $45 per month saved on top of the $80 or so you'll be saving in electricity vs gas. Then consider repairs and maintenance. Older cars need repairs occasionally. A new Leaf needs pretty much nothing. Still though, it probably won't pencil out. It's almost always better to just keep an older car. But, it could come _mighty_ close, and you get a new car.

The one thing I regret when I got my lease was not haggling for more miles. I have the standard 12,000 miles, and that's almost exactly what I drive a year, which is a bit of a pain because I can't just not worry about it. Agree on terms at the 12,000 miles, and then say, "Oh, one more thing, I need 15,000 miles per year."

In our state (GA) there's a $5k state tax credit in addtion to the $7.5k federal credit. We did a 2 year lease. Payment is $254/month. When we file our state tax return we'll get the $5k in cash as a refund. It's pretty close to a free car for 2 years.

Thanks for the comments all, gives me a lot to think about.
1. My current commute to work is 21 miles round trip.
2. Student loan Interest rate is 4.25% or roughly $1500/yr in interest with my current balance. That's $125/mo just for the interest. With my minimum payment only about 4000 of the $36k principal would be paid down. Hence I'
3. Interesting point pkulak makes about the mileage. I doubt I'd hit the 12k/year. In May 2012 I hit 60k and last month I hit 73k. Having a 2nd car which my partner drives most of the time really slows down the current rate of mileage I rack up. When we were living separately I'd easily drive 300 miles a week, but that hasn't been the case for 3 years. It is possible that with an electric car we'd drive that more since it uses no gas.
4. Not a big fan of leasing the leaf as a 2nd car. The economics are wrong on way too many levels. Having an depreciating asset sitting in a garage barely being used, cost of insurance, etc. 3 cars for two people seems excessive to me.
5. Klayfish I go back and forth on that, especially when I look at resale value of Leafs. Annual production numbers are low which makes it difficult to find the car in the used marketplace. The early models have too many compromises from what my research has shown me. Lack of a 6.6kW onboard charger, slightly lower range, a less efficient heating system, lack of the B regenerative braking mode. In computing, the longer you wait to upgrade, the greater bang for your buck. Moore's Law holds doesn't quite hold true in the automotive world. The more capable hot weather battery seems like the next big "feature". I'm guessing when the 2014s roll out. If that means a lessee / owner won't have to pay the $100 for a battery warranty it sounds like something worthy of waiting a few months for.

I could sell it and get something else for a little more or an even trade. I don't know what kind of headaches the used car would involve and that scares me a little bit.
6. RonDawg, I didn't know they had to hid the 200k mark for the rebate to no longer be in effect. I almost bought the Altima Hybrid when buying my car, but deemed the technology too new / experimental at the very last minute. The fact it was only sold in certain states and used Toyota-licensed tech didn't reassure my confidence in it either.
7. ksongas I agree about leasing this car. Typically I would be against it, but the immediate savings on a lease are really hard to overlook. Reading through the battery aging model now. It sounds like leasing without the hot battery is a recipe for disaster. The only pushback I've gotten from my partner on it is with the range. All the other numbers I think make it realistic. I almost never drive 100 miles in a day. I think 20-30 min for a quick charger on the days I do is a reasonable compromise. I haven't driven that much in several years. Our gas powered Accord would fit the bill just fine there.

I'm not sure if Nissan will make the lease deals even more attractive. If it were to drop to 149/mo with all the other incentives and the $1999 down that would be a steal of a deal. Am I pipe dreaming?

Also can you fit a mountain bike in the back of a Leaf with the seats folded down? If so I could go to a bike ride while the thing charges. One thing I hate about the Altima is putting the annoying bike rack on the trunk. I've scratched up my bumper and spoiler twice from that.

It looks like the state of Texas is going to start offering a $2500 rebate for electric vehicles:
http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2013/11/06/tesla-left-out-of-texas-new-electric.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://insideevs.com/texans-to-soon-get-2500-rebate-on-plug-in-vehicle-purchases-tesla-doesnt-qualify/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/law/TX/10832" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That + $7500 fed tax rebate would be $10k off combined on a purchase, or roughly 1/3 of the vehicles MSRP. Interesting.

I'm not sure if Nissan will make the lease deals even more attractive. If it were to drop to 149/mo with all the other incentives and the $1999 down that would be a steal of a deal. Am I pipe dreaming?

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If you don't have to pay sales tax on leases in your state, it's possible. I pay $149 a month with $3000 down, and over $1000 of that was sales tax. As for the mountain bike, others have written that they can do just that. I'd get a padded tarp, though.

I'd really stay away from buying. Lease. There are a lot of threads on this board about it. I went into my researching thinking buy...I've traditionally been an anti-lease person. But I was quickly convinced leasing is the way to go here. No worries about long term battery degredation, resale value, etc...

As for the price, shop around. That's the advertised price from Nissan. Keep in mind it doesn't include any local taxes. Dealers set their own actual price. There are some serious deals to be had. Mine is an SL, and I got it for $249/month with $1999 down, and that includes all state taxes (it was something like $210/month before tax). I could have had an S for around $170/month ($130/month before taxes).

As others have said, my personal suggestion would be to pay off that (assuming private) student loan!

Student loan debt is so toxic. If things change in the future (lose your jobs, etc...) and you still have that debt, it can/will ruin your financial future as well as that of anyone else that co-signed on your student loans. Without being able to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy, this should be your primary financial focus, even if the student loans happened to be at relatively low interest rates.

Once you've got that totally taken care of, then start thinking about the fun stuff!

You have a point. Student loan debt is toxic. I run a small blog about my struggles to get out of debt. Part of the reason I'd sell the Altima is to help me get out of debt sooner. The argument could be made that I'm exchanging one debt for another.

Here are two different scenarios. One with using a large chunk of what I'd get for the Altima ($8k) as a large principal payment, the other without.



With the car sold I pay an additional $1000 in interest on the student loan and it takes me 3 years 2 months to pay off instead of 2 years 5 months.

If I were to lease a Leaf over the same time I'd be paying $7164 for the 36 months and then have to either buy another car or start financing the rest of the amount (~$17-19k estimate). Basically putting me into debt again.

You also make a good point of what-if scenarios. What if I were to lose my job or have to move to a place where I earn less. My emergency funds are lower than they should be while I go through the debt payoff process. Decisions....

swaltner said:

As others have said, my personal suggestion would be to pay off that (assuming private) student loan!

Student loan debt is so toxic. If things change in the future (lose your jobs, etc...) and you still have that debt, it can/will ruin your financial future as well as that of anyone else that co-signed on your student loans. Without being able to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy, this should be your primary financial focus, even if the student loans happened to be at relatively low interest rates.

Once you've got that totally taken care of, then start thinking about the fun stuff!

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Stick with the Altima. Pay the student loans before trading cars, buying a house etc.
When the loans are paid then it will be time to make a trade.
You cannot borrow or spend your way out of debt.

Now if you had an Excursion or Suburban I might say go for it.

Please update your profile to include location (sounds like you live in Dallas like me).
I would pay down those student loans a bit while you're:
1) waiting for the "hot pack" battery upgrade promised sometime in 2014
2) waiting for the (new) $2500 TX rebate to be signed into law (the $7500 Fed rebate won't go away anytime soon)

FWIW, I bought and have never regretted it--especially now that I project to get a new (free) battery pack within a couple of years; your RT commute is just slightly beyond mine. Whatever you do, monitor the "DFW thread" and come to an NTEAA.org meeting one month (lots of Leaf owners there).

EDIT: it just dawned on me that you intend for the Leaf to be your ONLY car. If true, ignore everything I said: I don't recommend anyone make a BEV their ONLY vehicle (even if it's a Tesla).

Mountain bikes fit in the back of Leafs with the seats folded down.

RE; Stanton, it is updated.
It is a lot to think about. Some good reasons to wait:
1. The $2500 rebate through the state (supposedly coming after April or May, presumably in-line with the 2014 Tax Year)
2. The $7500 federal tax rebate, isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
3. Proven more reliable hot battery fix (I'd love to see some testing of this in action, which wouldn't really be until after the summer is over).
4. Possibly coming into some extra money as part of a bankruptcy settlement next year. Not huge but if I get the full amount it would cover over 2 years of lease payments.
5. Potentially increased range if Nissan increases capacity of the battery.
This might not happen til' 2016.
6. Comparing to the Infiniti LE. I might be more impressed by this model and just decide to wait until it's been out a while.

So yeah a lot of variables at play. I will have to check out the group one day, presumably when it's much warmer.

Stanton said:

Please update your profile to include location (sounds like you live in Dallas like me).
I would pay down those student loans a bit while you're:
1) waiting for the "hot pack" battery upgrade promised sometime in 2014
2) waiting for the (new) $2500 TX rebate to be signed into law (the $7500 Fed rebate won't go away anytime soon)

FWIW, I bought and have never regretted it--especially now that I project to get a new (free) battery pack within a couple of years; your RT commute is just slightly beyond mine. Whatever you do, monitor the "DFW thread" and come to an NTEAA.org meeting one month (lots of Leaf owners there).

EDIT: it just dawned on me that you intend for the Leaf to be your ONLY car. If true, ignore everything I said: I don't recommend anyone make a BEV their ONLY vehicle (even if it's a Tesla).

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Quick Update: My 2008 Altima 2.5SL is sold. About to hit 80k/mi and lose money on repairs / depreciation. Bought a new 2014 Altima 2.5 SL. Got $9k for my trade in and my payment is $280/mo at 0%. Driving from Houston to Dallas one day made me realize the Leaf wasn't right for me. Maybe my next car will be electric. I keep eyeing the technology, just not for me yet. My gas burner is getting 28.2MPG though so far on 600 miles.
Got very close to buying a Leaf, but two of my friends talked me out of it. That plus the hot weather battery issues made my skiddish.

realmac said:

Quick Update: My 2008 Altima 2.5SL is sold. About to hit 80k/mi and lose money on repairs / depreciation. Bought a new 2014 Altima 2.5 SL. Got $9k for my trade in and my payment is $280/mo at 0%. Driving from Houston to Dallas one day made me realize the Leaf wasn't right for me. Maybe my next car will be electric. I keep eyeing the technology, just not for me yet. My gas burner is getting 28.2MPG though so far on 600 miles.
Got very close to buying a Leaf, but two of my friends talked me out of it. That plus the hot weather battery issues made my skiddish.

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Nothing wrong with waiting until the next generation. Nissan may have a 150-mile with some active thermal management in a year or two.

Keep your car and pay off your loans. Nothing is worse than debt you can't get rid of even in bankruptcy.

Buying/leasing a new car sound exciting, but you'll feel much better once you have the debt off your back. EV's are in their infancy so we should expect to see them improve fairly rapidly over the next few years. Once you're ready to buy you'll have more options and more durable batteries with better range.