Buying used - 2013 vs 2012?

Hi - New forum member here, I've lurked for some time now.
First post for me, here it is.
Just test drove a Leaf for the first time, and it was great! Can't wait to get one.
My intention is to purchase a used 2013 Leaf next year, but I'm concerned as I read the forum about a lot of issues with the 2013. My goal is to have this long term (10+ years).
All things being (somewhat) equal, are my odds of getting a "good one" better with the 2012's made in Japan, or the 2013?

From what I've read here, the 2013 still looks like a better car than the earlier versions. (I lease a 2013 SV.) The only reason I'd consider a 2012 would be if I lived in a mild (but not hot!) climate and wanted the most acceleration I could get.

grantly said:

My intention is to purchase a used 2013 Leaf next year, but I'm concerned as I read the forum about a lot of issues with the 2013. My goal is to have this long term (10+ years).
All things being (somewhat) equal, are my odds of getting a "good one" better with the 2012's made in Japan, or the 2013?

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I don't see any difference in quality between older Leaf and MY13.

But I'd not suggest buying a Leaf - but leasing. If you tell us your location & how many miles you plan to drive a day, we can help you better.

I've not been interested in leasing in the past, but I'm reconsidering ...

Our new Leaf will be for running daily errands around town. We're about 10 miles from Seattle.
I would expect no more than 35 miles total per day. Once a month there would be a long haul of up to 50 miles, maybe. I've got the garage wired for 220v 40amps.

I've had my Japanese-made 2012 (one of the last ones sold in SoCal) since January, and after nearly 6k miles I have had ZERO issues with it. Quite a few people though have had quality control issues with their Tennessee-made 2013s, ranging from problems with the powertrain-related electronics, to leaky windshields, to (and this one I am NOT making up, someone posted about it here a while back) a car that was supposed to have a cloth interior but was delivered to the dealer with a leather back seat bottom cushion.

IMHO the ONLY thing that makes a 2013 superior to an older model is the availability of the faster on-board charger, and a less power-hungry heater, but not all 2013's have these features either. Because the 2013's charger for all models has been relocated to the "engine" compartment, there is a bit more room in the cargo area, but not much more.

A member who says he is a Nissan mechanic was here a few weeks back, and remarked that based on his experience, the TN-built Leafs have had more quality control issues than the imported ones.

I recently faced a similar decision...Lease a 2013 for more $$ than buying a 2011...Same options (LED lights, Nav, etc)...I decided to BUY.

I thought it would be better to buy because I would rather own the car afterwards, and then be able to get my wife a new car after the Leaf is payed off. We dont want two car payments. If we were to lease, once the lease is finished we would have to either purchase that Leaf, or get something else for me to drive...all the while futher postponing upgrading my wifes car (she drives a 07 VW with low miles, so shes still rolling good).

Sometimes I wonder if I should have leased, but then I think about the $120 LESS monthly payment over 36 months...and after 36 months, I'll own it, and can drive it for free, and not have to start a new car payment.

Leasing is a great option, but the price on used Leaf makes buying a very appealing option.

My '11 I bought --- http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

grantly said:

I've not been interested in leasing in the past, but I'm reconsidering ...

Our new Leaf will be for running daily errands around town. We're about 10 miles from Seattle.
I would expect no more than 35 miles total per day. Once a month there would be a long haul of up to 50 miles, maybe. I've got the garage wired for 220v 40amps.

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Looks like you are all set.

One thing I'd say is that we don't know how expectations of 10 year ownership pans out. In winter, at freeway speeds expect about 60 miles of range. So, as the battery ages you may find it more difficult to make such trips.

I suggest leasing now and looking at buying a new Leaf may be 3 years from now. You will likely get a Leaf with longer range that will work well for you even in winter after some battery degradation.

Great feedback all.
Since I really want to own, I'm wondering if I should hold off for a couple years until things get ironed out.
Thanks again!

grantly said:

I'm wondering if I should hold off for a couple years until things get ironed out.

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This thought crossed my mind too. I figure that Tesla is supposed to be making their "affordable" family sedan available in 2016 - until then, I felt the Leaf would be an excellent foray into the EV world.

I would lease a new 2013 for 24 months.

grantly said:

Our new Leaf will be for running daily errands around town. We're about 10 miles from Seattle. I would expect no more than 35 miles total per day. Once a month there would be a long haul of up to 50 miles, maybe. I've got the garage wired for 220v 40amps.

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This applies 100% to you as well: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13595&start=10#p311098

grantly said:

Since I really want to own...

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If you don't mind me asking ... why ?

Lease on EVs makes perfect sense. A fast changing new industry - so why own a depreciating asset ?

I've always dreamed of owning a depreciating asset, especially an electric one!

Really, all vehicles are depreciating things. To me, the numbers to own only make sense if you can keep it long term. Take my 1999 Saturn, purchased for $13,000 new, it's worth almost nothing now. But I could do what I wanted with it.
I can live with a degrading battery long term (in terms of range), if in 10 years I can only drive 40 miles that's OK. What is silly is to invest big dollars in something that will need expensive repairs in the future. I had hoped that Nissan would have worked out some of the initial bugaboos within the first couple years. But it's becoming more clear to me that these things are still cutting-edge technology, highly dependant on software and computer hardware to make it work correctly.
This is why, if I'm honest about really wanting a BEV, I have to consider the leasing option, if I want to jump now. Leasing feels like I'm just renting a car. Either I will do that or wait until I'm confident that the Leaf or Tesla or whatever is a predictably reliable long term vehicle.
Not sure if I'm making sense or not.

I think you're a perfect candidate to BUY, especially in your climate.
I bought a 2011 (new) and have had ZERO problems with it. This is the best "v1.0" of something I've ever owned.

grantly said:

I can live with a degrading battery long term (in terms of range), if in 10 years I can only drive 40 miles that's OK.

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I doubt you will get 40 miles in winter on freeways in 10 years.

Last decade we bought two cars and held them for over 10 years. I feel that was a sub-optimal experience - mainly because they didn't have necessities like Bluetooth integration etc. But I obviously spent far less.

One extreme example is to compare to clothes we wear. We can either buy new clothes ever x number of years or wear something until it falls apart. It is a lifestyle choice, rather than a financial one.

If you can afford to lease in the next 5 years - I expect the technology to be somewhat more stable by then - I'd say lease now and buy later.

I live in Montreal and our highways are hilly not flat . 60 miles at NORMAL highway speed is tough even in summer. By normal I mean 100 - 110 KM hr.

This is my first winter, pre heating is a huge help but range suffers dramatically.

On the plus side Leaf's love our weather. My 2012 was built in November 2011, I bought it in may 2012 and have done 10 000 km. My dash display now shows health at 99.64% up from abou 93-94 % in summer.

I think ithe battery will last a lot longer then a hot climate car.

In the middle of my 3 year lease on my 2012 I exchanged it for a 2013 with the only change being back to a 3 year lease.

In general I like the 2013 better. The sun glass holder rattle is gone. I really like the leather seats and the SL wheels look great.

GlennD said:

In the middle of my 3 year lease on my 2012 I exchanged it for a 2013 with the only change being back to a 3 year lease.

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How does that work? I was under the impression that trading in a lease early was very expensive. Did they roll the difference between the residual and market value of the car into your new lease?

Since I had an original expensive lease the numbers worked out and I was used to the payments. It would not work on today's cheap leases.

grantly said:

I've always dreamed of owning a depreciating asset, especially an electric one!

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Me too, and I own one. I own a 2012, so I missed the above MSRP crazyness of the 2011's.

grantly said:

Really, all vehicles are depreciating things. To me, the numbers to own only make sense if you can keep it long term. Take my 1999 Saturn, purchased for $13,000 new, it's worth almost nothing now. But I could do what I wanted with it.
I can live with a degrading battery long term (in terms of range), if in 10 years I can only drive 40 miles that's OK. What is silly is to invest big dollars in something that will need expensive repairs in the future. I had hoped that Nissan would have worked out some of the initial bugaboos within the first couple years. But it's becoming more clear to me that these things are still cutting-edge technology, highly dependant on software and computer hardware to make it work correctly.

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Yes, and often buying a two or three year old car is the least expensive way to do it. Used Leafs are currently fairly rare, so are not cheap, but are likely to be more common and cheaper over the next year as many leases are expiring. If everyone takes the advice to "lease, don't buy", they might be really cheap, and buying will look very attractive. And the longer Nissan holds off on releasing a battery price, the cheaper the used Leafs will get.

If you want the cutting edge of networking and user interface, you will not get that in a used Leaf. Carwings, which allows some remote functions from a browser or cellphone app, is marginal on a good day.

As for repairs, it is hard to say in the future, but so far Leafs have been one of the lowest repair and maintenance cost cars on the road.

Battery life isn't exactly known, but Stoaty's model is a fairly good guess. It is both on line:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqhUVOciAXVhdEFId2ppVEViZmd0ckJxME95N0U4SUE&usp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And more versions and other detail are here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A three year old Leaf with 36,000 miles in Seattle should be fairly close to 85% capacity, according to Stoaty's battery model, and would be close to losing a capacity bar. If the battery model is correct (insert large grain of salt here) you might get another 12 years and 144,000 miles to 50% capacity loss. If you can live with a 50% battery, I suspect you might not care about a battery replacement. Whatever a battery costs now, in 10 years it would be about 40% of that price, as battery costs have been declining at 8% a year.

A 50% battery will not give you 40 miles on the freeway in the winter (and would be marginal in the summer), but 30 miles around town should be, year round.

I'd say: go for it next year if you can get a good deal. Get a device for reading out estimated battery capacity, so you have a better understanding of what you are buying (a ODB Bluetooth dongle and one of several apps for cell phones).

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leaf_Battery_Application" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;