Leaf as 50 mile daily driver in Maine?

My wife really wants a Nissan Leaf as a daily driver, but her work has confirmed she will not have anyplace to plug in during the day (amazing how many places confuse 'cost-cutting' with 'green'), so she would need to make her daily commute round-trip on a single overnight L2 charge. Her commute is as follows (round trip):

44 miles at 65 MPH
4 miles at 35 MPH
48-50 miles, total
Average daily low in Jan/Feb: ~14F
35 minutes each way with heat

Based on the calculators, charts and various posts I'm reading, it looks like a 2012 leaf for this commute is ill-advised (perhaps the 2013 will be better).

Would folks agree with my conclusion?

Cheers,

DrC

I think this falls under the category of trips the leaf CAN make, but probably shouldn't make.
The temperature alone will hurt the battery's range. But if she plans to run the heater like most women will insist on doing, I'd say forget it.

If the car is garaged and you can pre-heat in the morning before leaving and didn't plan to run the heater during the actual trip, I'd say you could make it.

I hate to say it, but you might want to have her look into a Chevy Volt or a Ford C-Max Energi. Neither of those vehicles would make the entire trip on electricity alone, but it would allow at least half or more of the commute. Then maybe someday if they find a plug for her to use at work, the other half of the commute could be electric too.

For the 2012 it looks indeed as a 'can but shouldn't'. But you might want to wait for the 2013 specs. It won't be a spectacular change. But with slightly more EPA range, and especially a better (more economical) heater; I'd say, it should be possible.

Any thoughts?

There is no way she will be comfortable in a Leaf. She will want to pre-heat on battery power only before she leaves to come home from work. This will be cutting it way too close. I would pass.

DrC said:

My wife really wants a Nissan Leaf as a daily driver, but her work has confirmed she will not have anyplace to plug in during the day (amazing how many places confuse 'cost-cutting' with 'green'), so she would need to make her daily commute round-trip on a single overnight L2 charge. Her commute is as follows (round trip):

44 miles at 65 MPH
4 miles at 35 MPH
48-50 miles, total
Average daily low in Jan/Feb: ~14F
35 minutes each way with heat

Based on the calculators, charts and various posts I'm reading, it looks like a 2012 leaf for this commute is ill-advised (perhaps the 2013 will be better).

Would folks agree with my conclusion?

Cheers,

DrC

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35 minutes each way - so with full heat that will use about 5KWH. The Leaf has a 20KWH usable energy base to start with, in colder weather, a bit less, perhaps 18KWH. So that would leave 13KWH to get her to work and back. If she watches her power use meter and uses 11KW or less for driving, she will make it. On level dry terrain that should not be a problem, but the 65 mph speed will likely use all of that, and a little more on uphills. With highway speeds you will get no regen to aid the trip, so without altering her driving patterns, she will not be ecstatic with the Leaf. If she is willing to slow down or take another route that allows for coasting and less energy use (The 35mph driving will use little energy other than starts, but the stops will recover about half of that energy.), she will learn to love the commute, rather than just get through it. Keep in mind the energy in the Leaf battery is roughly equal to the energy contained in one gallon of gasoline. The beauty of the Leaf is you could actually make this drive everyday on that energy, whereas I don't think you could with one gallon of gas in many vehicles. Without heater use, this commute would not be an issue except in the rain and snow where you would want to slow down anyway. In those conditions you will have to use the defroster, which means the heater. One thing the gas burning engines do well is create heat. About 80% of the gas you burn goes toward heat production, so if you are not using it, it goes toward heating other things - like the planet.

You might make it the first winter, and maybe even the second but it's doubtful you would be able to make that trip for 3 years. If you didn't need highway speed then probably wouldn't be a problem or if you had a plug nearby then it wouldn't be a problem. I doubt you'd be able to do this on a 3 year lease and definitely not on a 6 year loan.

It's amazing how pessimistic people have become wrt Leaf range & battery degradation. Based on experience, we know:
1) range will be decreased in the cold (but 50 mile RT should be very doable with no detours, etc.)
2) battery degradation will be very mild (over time) in such a moderate (if not cold) climate

With just a couple of concessions in the coldest months (true for ANY BEV), I believe you are within the Leaf's range:
1) keep highway speed < 60 mph (I do this all the time and it really helps)
2) pre-heat in the mornings to limit heater use on the "to" trip (I set a timer to do this in the coldest months--and it really helps)
3) assuming you park outside, the car is naturally warmed by the sun in the afternoon, which helps limit (but not eliminate) heater use on the "from" trip

Basically, you can go electric with some planning/concessions; personally, I think it's well worth it.

i have no experience with the new heater and wheel heater in the 2012.
in the 2011, I do a 50-mile commute along a similar mix of roads on an 80% charge, and get home with at least a bar and a half.
i would say it is possible, perhaps iffy in the out years, but definitely will require pre-heating and that she drive under 60 mph.

I'd say wait until the 2013's are out, that is what I am doing. I grew up south of Portland ME and now live north of Boston. So cold weather and driving in multiple inches of snow is a norm. I have a similar commute (54 RT), mostly highway, etc. I am sure on a normal day the LEAF could make it, but add snow to the roads, ~20% battery degradation due to cold weather, and heat/defrost due to snow/ice and there is no way I would trust the range after 3 years. I am only contemplating a 3 year lease due to knowing that I can get a charge down the street if really needed to handle the cold days (some days start at -4F and never get above 15F) and snow on the road.

You might want to plug in her commute in the following website to determine range http://www.jurassictest.ch/GR/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. See what the site says is possible. Just edit the LEAF details for 5000W of power from accessories and 18KW total energy from the battery.


For people from warm climates (LA, TX, etc), know that the cold is a real factor that can't be ignored in calculating range. If your car runs out of juice and it is 0F, you are going to freeze fast.

Is that 50 miles round trip or each way? If it's round trip, I don't see how it could be a problem. My husband drives ours every day to work and back at about 50 miles round trip. He goes 18 miles on the highway at 65-70 mph, and about 6 miles on side roads between 35-45 mph. He usually returns home with about 30 miles left on the GOM in the evening. We charge with an L2 overnight and he's good to go the next day.

We haven't had our LEAF through a winter yet and it can get really cold here in Oklahoma but it is garaged overnight so it will be warm in the mornings. But we had a terrible summer with over 30 straight days over 100+ degrees and still, the leaf did just fine.

We LOVE our Leaf and have never worried about the range. When I drive it I like to play with my driving style to get the most out of the car (without using ECO mode) but my husband just gets in it and drives... if he needs to put the pedal to the metal, he does.

I know your wife would love it as much as we love ours. Go for it!

We have been doing a 60 mile RT like the one you describe in our LEAF for almost 2 years now with no issues.

The only difference is the ambient temp. If you preheat the cabin, keep the cabin temp at 60 degrees or below, and use the heated seats and wheel, you will be fine. If your commute is on fairly level ground, all the better, and if your workplace has 110v plugs for people that use block heaters, you could plug the L1 EVSE into that during the day.

I would suggest that you ask your dealer to lend you a LEAF to drive on a trial commute to see how it works for you. They should be willing to offer that if it will close the deal.

My only comment is that you might want to drive the car at 60 65 or so, and practice hyper-miling techniques.

The good thing is that I understand that it does get warm in Maine at some point, and with global warming upon us, the low temperature days will probably be fewer and fewer!

="DrC" My wife really wants a Nissan Leaf as a daily driver...

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I think the real question is how resistant your wife will be to winter "range anxiety".

~9 months a year, this commute will be possible with an "80%" charge, though She may prefer the added flexibility of charging to a higher rate.

She will probably want to charge to 100% anytime temperatures drop below freezing, or when it is raining.

And She will still probably need to be comfortable with getting the LBW on a fairly regular basis (which seems to cause apoplexy in some) during Winter, unless she is willing to cut down on heater use and/or drive slower on the way home. The good news is that once she gets used to the range, she will never be stranded, and always be able to make it home, using the ultimate "range extender", by driving slower, if road conditions permit.

="DrC Based on the calculators, charts and various posts I'm reading, it looks like a 2012 leaf for this commute is ill-advised (perhaps the 2013 will be better).

Would folks agree with my conclusion?

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Unless the almost certain) higher price you'll have to pay for a 2013 is a deal killer, I'd think you might want to wait, at least for the specs to be announced.

The real difference, IMO, may be after three to five years, after some loss of battery capacity, when the (possible) extra ~ 5 miles or so of range of a 2013 on your Wife's Winter commute, may be very useful.

OrientExpress said:

The only difference is the ambient temp.

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Understatement of the year!

I don't think you can even come close to comparing Bay Area weather (where it typically very rarely dips below freezing and certainly not for more than a few hours) and it's affect on range to Maine. Better comparison would be Chicago where there are a decent number of LEAF owners and I think you'll find that nearly all say that 50 miles in below freezing temps with snow on the ground is really, really pushing it if you have to drive that daily without recharging.

OrientExpress said:

with global warming upon us, the low temperature days will probably be fewer and fewer!

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Even with slow warming, the fact remains that Maine is cold and will be cold in the winter. Also, you should realize that winter isn't a month or two, it really is late October - April.

Where is the OP located in Maine? South, North, Coast? That will effect the range of temperatures seen and how soon mud season arrives.

I have been driving a similar 50 mile RT commute in the Chicago area since December of last year. I always charge to 80%, preheat in the winter, and almost never reach low battery warning. So far I have charged to 100% exactly three times and reached LBW four times. The LEAF is my only car. Having said that and given the fact that a LEAF with a substantially more efficient heating system is only a few months away, I would strongly suggest to wait for the 2013 MY. In the end it really depends how serious the OP's SO is about driving an electric car and making the necessary adjustments.

I have been driving my Leaf 50 miles every day. My first winter has not hit yet, but I have gone through some of the worst rain condition's imaginable. I usually charge to 80% and then set my timers to charge and preheat me to 100% just before I leave in the morning. This allows my Leaf to sit at work at around eighty percent. Then gives me plenty of juice to return home without charging. I usually get home with three bars, or one above the two red bars.
I think 50 miles round trip is easy, mainly because I do it every day...with climate control on when I need it.
Hairy

lukati said:

... that a LEAF with a substantially more efficient heating system is only a few months away, I would strongly suggest to wait for the 2013 MY. In the end it really depends how serious the OP's SO is about driving an electric car and making the necessary adjustments.

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I normally say "get the 2012", but your situation gives me pause. I would wait for 2013 with a heat pump and a slightly more efficient drive train. You'll need all the help you can get when you have 10-15% degradation after a year or two, plus cold on the battery (about 10% loss at freezing temps, and almost 15% loss at 14F.

At year three, four, and five, we can only guess what degradation may be. But, working with at least 30% total reduction for cold and degradation, with a 2012 car that can go 84 miles at 60-65mph / 4 miles/kWh on smooth, level roads without snow and standing water, that 30% is 25 miles lost for 59 miles of range.

Now, you have to have some reserve, and 12 miles should just barely keep you out of Low Battery Warning, leaving 47 miles to actually get the job done.

Then, add whatever speed will get 4.0 miles/kWh to push snow, water, and run the heater.

Please, do yourself a favor and wait until Feb or March for a 2013. Unless your wife loves a challenge and adventure, and dresses warm !!!!

drees said:

OrientExpress said:

The only difference is the ambient temp.

Click to expand...

Understatement of the year!

I don't think you can even come close to comparing Bay Area weather (where it typically very rarely dips below freezing and certainly not for more than a few hours) and it's affect on range to Maine. Better comparison would be Chicago where there are a decent number of LEAF owners and I think you'll find that nearly all say that 50 miles in below freezing temps with snow on the ground is really, really pushing it if you have to drive that daily without recharging.

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Yes. The fairweather state folks forget that snow is a real range killer. If the OP's wife wants the LEAF as a daily driver regardless of weather there is no way it will work with snowpacked roads and the heater on. Driving without the heat in 30ºF weather is one thing, driving home in a car that has been sitting at 10ºF all day without the heater is something else entirely.

I'm sorry, the LEAF isn't a good fit for that Maine commute without reliable workplace charging.

dgpcolorado said:

drees said:

OrientExpress said:

The only difference is the ambient temp.

Click to expand...

Understatement of the year!

I don't think you can even come close to comparing Bay Area weather (where it typically very rarely dips below freezing and certainly not for more than a few hours) and it's affect on range to Maine. Better comparison would be Chicago where there are a decent number of LEAF owners and I think you'll find that nearly all say that 50 miles in below freezing temps with snow on the ground is really, really pushing it if you have to drive that daily without recharging.

Click to expand...

Yes. The fairweather state folks forget that snow is a real range killer. If the OP's wife wants the LEAF as a daily driver regardless of weather there is no way it will work with snowpacked roads and the heater on. Driving without the heat in 30ºF weather is one thing, driving home in a car that has been sitting at 10ºF all day without the heater is something else entirely.

I'm sorry, the LEAF isn't a good fit for that Maine commute without reliable workplace charging.

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Several good points made ... keep in mind though, you won't be driving 65mph on snow ( I hope ! ). As pointed out above by edatoakrun the LEAF will be perfect for 9/12 months ... in snowy+cold climate your wife will need to be "flexible" or use a different car. So ... I would make that last sentence "I'm sorry, the LEAF isn't a good fit for that Maine commute during cold winters without reliable workplace charging."

LEAFer said:

Several good points made ... keep in mind though, you won't be driving 65mph on snow ( I hope ! ). As pointed out above by edatoakrun the LEAF will be perfect for 9/12 months ... in snowy+cold climate your wife will need to be "flexible" or use a different car. So ... I would make that last sentence "I'm sorry, the LEAF isn't a good fit for that Maine commute during cold winters without reliable workplace charging."

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Yes, one drives slowly in a snowstorm. No, it doesn't lead to better mileage than higher speeds on dry roads. Driving in snow and slush is really hard on mileage. It is also highly variable, depending on the type of snow and temperature and tires.

My interpretation of "daily driver" in the OP is that the car would be used every (work) day regardless of weather (barring roads being closed during a blizzard). However, if another car is available for when conditions are poor then that changes things. And if the OP's wife was willing to slow down in cold weather, avoid using the heater, and so forth, that would help. But most people don't want to turn their commute into a science project like so many MNL members here (including me)!

I can easily get 70 miles in winter but I drive my long (grocery shopping) trips when the weather is sunny (and we get a LOT more sun here in winter than they do in Maine*) and the roads are dry. Otherwise I pick another day or take my Jeep. I can do that, someone using a LEAF as a daily commuter might not have those options.


* At my latitude the angle of the sun at noon on the winter solstice is 61º below vertical. In mid-Maine—say, Bangor—it would be 68º below vertical. And I have the advantage of thin air at rather high altitude (7670 feet) and a generally sunny climate.