Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs? (SOLVED!)

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joeDees said:
But there's one thing about my commute and that's pretty much what I'd use the car for. The 2nd half 20 miles of it is done around the 11:00 am hour, when the temperature on these kind of days ranges around 80-90 degrees (while the other half is 2 am-cool), and about 8 miles of it is downhill. I know I read somewhere that some people seem to think that Nissan thinks 80 degrees is really super hot. :shock: Also, the car will be parked in the shade during the hottest part of the days So based on what I said in this paragraph, is it still your opinions that I will really be driving "in really hot conditions" (where a lizard pack will do me the most good)?

Based on experience with both the original battery in my 2012 Leaf (May '12 manufacture/Sept. titled) and a new "lizard" battery installed in Nov. '16, both batteries have degraded about the same rate of .47 amp-hrs per month overall* (note that this might not correlate directly with GIDS). My Leaf has been in the Houston TX area its entire life with 95+ temps common during all summer months from late May to late August. As you describe your driving, I would estimate you could likely use only 3.2 - 3.5 GIDS per mile (my best guess). IF GIDS correlate well to ahrs, you will likely lose about 2 GIDS per month. *There is another consideration however, and that is during the annual temp cycle, the ahrs tend to reduce (actually quite substantially) during the winter months. That might be the limiting commute for you - depends on how cold a winter. Obtaining a 120 VAC outlet at your workplace might resolve any degradation problem as you would not need too many additional GIDS to make it home - thus putting off buying a replacement battery. Note that at VLBW, there is about 20-25 GIDS remaining.
 
joeDees said:
cwerdna said:
Original replacement cost was http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=17168. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25882 is a claim it went up. Since that post, I've seen some posts to the contrary from other service depts. I'd check w/your or a few service depts near you for a quote.

WT...heck?!? :x

That news is a big blow to my plans, and may very well derail them. But hey. I guess the reason I'm trying to research this is to learn things good and bad.

After reading this, I'm inclined to be real sympathetic with this guy's post from that thread:

Loving my first BEV :D
MalcolmReynolds
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:39 am
Delivery Date: 04 Jul 2017
Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)
Quote
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:45 pm

What Nissan has effectively just done is signaled the end of the first gen 24kwh Leaf. Price increase on a battery that should be decreasing in price. A price tag that is as high or higher than the value of the older cars. Any plans I had of replacing the battery on my car when it needs replacement have just been terminated. Nissan is effectively telling gen 1 24khw Leaf owners to go away or buy a new car from us.

Well it will be a cold day in a very hot place now before I will buy another Nissan. Thankfully my car is fine for now, but when it becomes effectively useless due to battery degradation it will be off to the salvage yard. That is PATHETIC! My car is still in very good condition and nothing wrong with it. The idea that the battery degrading to the point of uselessness and no effective way to fix it is beyond my breaking point of pissed off.

Nissan had better reverse course on this decision or this will be the last Nissan I ever own. Period.
 
I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.
 
Evoforce said:
I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.

Hmmm. So, since yesterday I've learned replacement batteries, which were a big part of my plan are now WAAAAY more expensive then I had thought and now Lizard batteries, another big part of my plan, don't hold up well either. Whatta day!

Well, there's another nail in the coffin for my plan!
 
joeDees said:
Also, the car will be parked in the shade during the hottest part of the days So based on what I said in this paragraph, is it still your opinions that I will really be driving "in really hot conditions" (where a lizard pack will do me the most good)?

Yes, because official temperature readings are "in the shade." So if the official reading was 103 F, that's what it is in the shade. Your battery will last longer vs. a car that's always kept out in the open, but air temps will still be warm.
 
Evoforce said:
I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system..

I believe the Chevy Spark EV has liquid cooling for the batteries. Source: https://gm-volt.com/2013/08/02/spark-ev-versus-volt-battery/

Slide7.jpg


I found one at CarMax Modesto with just 16k miles on it for under $12k: https://www.carmax.com/car/15990468 There are cheaper options with higher miles for as low as $9k. I know the OP has said "it's Leaf or nothing" but I would reconsider that stance.
 
joeDees said:
Evoforce said:
I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.

Hmmm. So, since yesterday I've learned replacement batteries, which were a big part of my plan are now WAAAAY more expensive then I had thought and now Lizard batteries, another big part of my plan, don't hold up well either. Whatta day!

Well, there's another nail in the coffin for my plan!
Disagree with Evoforce's 1st sentence and I think GerryAZ would, as well.

When the Leaf had only been out ~21 months, we already had a 4 bar loser in Phoenix, Blue494 at http://web.archive.org/web/20160128002617/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10040.

See GerryAZ's posts at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=509371#p509371 and the 4 bar loser a 5/2013 built (same as mine) Leaf in Phoenix.

I personally know of folks in the SF Bay Area, including those in the South Bay (where I am) who have lost 4 bars on the original crap pack ('11 or '12 Leaf), some within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty and another who missed the warranty expiration, so he no longer has a Leaf. He got a Clarity BEV instead. I'm still at 11 bars and still awhile away from hitting 10 even though I'm past the 5 year mark of the capacity warranty.

I'm not aware of any 4 bar losers on the '15 "lizard" pack yet: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532. The worst are 3 bar losers.
 
I think that the most accurate way to put it would be "The Lizard pack holds up better in very warm temps than either the Canary or Wolf packs, but in very Hot conditions it will still lose one or more bars over a few years." If you can keep a Lizard pack even 5F lower than ambient in your climate, it will lose bars fairly slowly - maybe one every 18 months to two years. The best way to do that cost-wise is to cool a garage to 10F or so below ambient (in hot weather), and keep it there as much as possible, as I'm doing. That's just an educated guess, understand...
 
RonDawg said:
I found one (Chevy Spark EV) at CarMax Modesto with just 16k miles on it for under $12k: https://www.carmax.com/car/15990468 There are cheaper options with higher miles for as low as $9k. I know the OP has said "it's Leaf or nothing" but I would reconsider that stance.

Hmmm. The idea of a Spark may perhaps revive a little interest for me, but I had absolutely no knowledge they even existed until you just mentioned it, so I'd have tons to learn to consider that, I guess. I see CarMax has just 4 of them listed nationwide, so thats not a real big selection.

Dumb question just to show how little I know about the spark, is the "Chevy Spark EV LT" all electric or hybrid (important because under the program I think you only get $7500 for hybrids instead of $9500 for all-electric).
 
LeftieBiker said:
I think that the most accurate way to put it would be "The Lizard pack holds up better in very warm temps than either the Canary or Wolf packs, but in very Hot conditions it will still lose one or more bars over a few years. If you can keep a Lizard pack even 5F lower than ambient in your climate, it will lose bars fairly slowly - maybe one every 18 months to two years.

Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.

"for many common chemical reactions at room temperature, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation

This isn't an exact relationship, and I've seen some discussion that the temperature required to double the loss rate was slightly less than 10C.

There is no realistic way that 2.5C cooler or warmer would make a dramatic difference.
 
joeDees said:
Dumb question just to show how little I know about the spark, is the "Chevy Spark EV LT" all electric or hybrid (important because under the program I think you only get $7500 for hybrids instead of $9500 for all-electric).
The Chevy Spark EV is an EV (a battery powered electric vehicle). And if the "program" you are talking about is the federal tax credit - it applies to BEVs (battery powered electric cars) and PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) when purchased new. The full credit on an EV is $7,500. PHEV credits are determined by a formula and most are about half of the EV credit. The Spark is no longer available new, so no tax credit. Below is a table of current federal credits.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml
 
Yep, the Spark EV was a pure electric and a CA compliance car, sold only in CA and eventually OR. It was discontinued eventually in favor of the Bolt.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/31/chevrolet-ends-production-of-the-spark-ev-now-that-the-bolt-ev-is-out/
https://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-spark-ev-review-production-ends-august/

Chevy still sells the ICEV non-hybrid version of it. There was never a hybrid version.

I think the program the OP's referring to is http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26164. I found a page on it at https://valleycan.org/vehicle-replacement/#eligibility. I don't live in that part of CA nor would I be eligible from an income POV.
 
WetEV said:
Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.
What is the chemical reaction that causes Leaf battery degradation? I've seen discussions on MNL of 12 V lead-acid degradation, in terms of the temporaily reversible formation of a certain chemical species, but never the equivalent for Li ion.
 
TheLostPetrol said:
WetEV said:
Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.
What is the chemical reaction that causes Leaf battery degradation? I've seen discussions on MNL of 12 V lead-acid degradation, in terms of the temporaily reversible formation of a certain chemical species, but never the equivalent for Li ion.

He's over-simplifying this far too much. There are likely thresholds and other factors involved, not just reaction rates.
 
Just got confirmation (otherwise known as "nightmare") from local Nissan dealer:

$8027 and some cents to replace Leaf battery (and that might not even include sales tax).

I made the comment "guess that confirms it, they really did raise the price" and the reply was yeah, just recently.

D'OH!
 
joeDees said:
$8027 and some cents to replace Leaf battery (and that might not even include sales tax).

And with that, I waive the white flag and declare my question answered.

Perhaps one day, if the program still exists, I will think of a way around the problems, but for now, it just aint happenin' :(

Thanks all for your input, your a great group and I think you saved me a load of trouble!
 
TheLostPetrol said:
WetEV said:
Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.
What is the chemical reaction that causes Leaf battery degradation? I've seen discussions on MNL of 12 V lead-acid degradation, in terms of the temporaily reversible formation of a certain chemical species, but never the equivalent for Li ion.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die

There are multiple reactions, and isn't as simple as lead acid battery sulfation.

Arrhenius's equation does a fairly good at predicting the differences between battery life in different climates.
 
I'm in a very warm climate (jax Florida), and now have a Lizard pack replacement that has held up very well compared to the original one. I lost first bar at 21k, then again at 30K, 38.4K, and final bar at 48.4K.

I'm now at 37K on the Lizard and 32 months, and have not lost a bar yet. It might happen soon. Only real difference is this one is driven 5 days a week, whereas first one would be in a hot garage more than this one.

But..... as I was reading your driving scenario, I'm saying "Don't do it". If you have to ask (in my opinion), it's a No.
 
cwerdna said:
joeDees said:
Evoforce said:
I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.

Hmmm. So, since yesterday I've learned replacement batteries, which were a big part of my plan are now WAAAAY more expensive then I had thought and now Lizard batteries, another big part of my plan, don't hold up well either. Whatta day!

Well, there's another nail in the coffin for my plan!
Disagree with Evoforce's 1st sentence and I think GerryAZ would, as well.

When the Leaf had only been out ~21 months, we already had a 4 bar loser in Phoenix, Blue494 at http://web.archive.org/web/20160128002617/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10040.

See GerryAZ's posts at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=509371#p509371 and the 4 bar loser a 5/2013 built (same as mine) Leaf in Phoenix.

I personally know of folks in the SF Bay Area, including those in the South Bay (where I am) who have lost 4 bars on the original crap pack ('11 or '12 Leaf), some within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty and another who missed the warranty expiration, so he no longer has a Leaf. He got a Clarity BEV instead. I'm still at 11 bars and still awhile away from hitting 10 even though I'm past the 5 year mark of the capacity warranty.

I'm not aware of any 4 bar losers on the '15 "lizard" pack yet: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532. The worst are 3 bar losers.

Disagree, with some of what you have said. I have personally done testing on several cars and in depth testing using leaf spy. I even have used my personal vehicles to pace old versus new lizard batteries. Some of my family have also owned Leafs. I have also tested other Leaf's outside of my family besides my own two personal vehicles as well as tracked those of my family. Gerry's result on his latest personal vehicle related to his first were not done concurrently. He is also having better than average result for the climate. I believe (and I could be incorrect on this) if I am speaking of the correct Gerry, he also retired from Nissan and worked directly on development of the Leaf. He may be overly optimistic. I would assume that Gerry also babied his second car after experience with the first. Having said all that, I generally find him spot on. Currently he is relating to his own experience and that differs a little from the many Leaf owners that I know in this climate. He may also be treating his battery as good as possible but he is still more than 20% depleted (the last I knew) on his Lizard battery. Maybe he will get an extra 6 months to a year longer?
 
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