Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

SageBrush said:

No one locally will have a clue what tape on a wire means, what gauge wire is used, or whether it is a dedicated circuit.
The people who approve these matters at an IHS hospital are political appointees related to tribal connections. They are gross incompetents.

If ANY body should stick to code, it is here. Luckily, they only act in self-preservation so there is no way in hell they are going to agree to ad-hoc contraptions.

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Nothing I suggested is against "code".

Those ARE the codes... markings on a neutral, appropriate breaker for the circuit, proper gauge wire for the load, etc.

No, the folks signing a contract won't know how to wire open outlet (I didn't suggest that, either). But, they might actually ask a building manager if this is possible, and he might look at the description and forward to an electrician who WILL know how to do this.

But, even if it's only 120v at the hospital, with a 30kWh, and a full charge at home, he might be ok.

SageBrush said:

offtoSleep,
Did you buy one LEAF already ?
I'm curious why you are seemingly jumping to buy another so soon.

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I'm just convinced it's the way to go, so why not got big. Plus, looking one is for my wife and kids to drive and one for me to commute

TonyWilliams said:

Nothing I suggested is against "code".

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So far as you know. Read this:
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1283237

But, even if it's only 120v at the hospital, with a 30kWh, and a full charge at home, he might be ok.

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I see you save your reasonable advice for last.

^^^^
That's a different scenario, that thread and I quote "As I understand it, he proposes using the ground as neutral, and using both existing wires as hot on two phases."
which IS against all codes. What Tony suggested(and I've done) is to use the neutral for the second hot while still using the bare or green wire for ground. Note in this case you WON'T have 120v available, just 240v but that doesn't matter for EVSE use as unless your talking about 120v they don't use the neutral.

jjeff said:

^^^^
That's a different scenario, that thread and I quote "As I understand it, he proposes using the ground as neutral, and using both existing wires as hot on two phases."
which IS against all codes. What Tony suggested(and I've done) is to use the neutral for the second hot while still using the bare or green wire for ground. Note in this case you WON'T have 120v available, just 240v but that doesn't matter for EVSE use as unless your talking about 120v they don't use the neutral.

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This is exactly why the advice to OP for IHS is so wrong.
Tony says nothing about ground. A bozo can wire this up without any grounding at all, or move the ground to neutral. Remember, the person at the box and outlet does not know this is meant to ONLY be an outlet for EVSE connections.
He mentions 20A but has no no way of knowing, let alone assuring, compatible wiring for 12A continuous, let alone 16A
No one at the hospital will know if the circuit is dedicated. IHS do not have licensed electricians on site.

What YOU do in your garage for ONLY your use is an entirely different kettle of fish than ad hoc wiring of a public outlet. It is dangerous advice.

GerryAZ said:

Offtosleep's climate is much cooler than mine so battery degradation should be similar to Colorado or Northern California.

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Perhaps, but he plans to park on unshaded asphalt every work day for the entire day, while charging.

I don't think he can rely on the LEAF meeting his needs for much over 5 years given his use case, and at $25k+ that works out to a poor value.

SageBrush said:

jjeff said:

^^^^
That's a different scenario, that thread and I quote "As I understand it, he proposes using the ground as neutral, and using both existing wires as hot on two phases."
which IS against all codes. What Tony suggested(and I've done) is to use the neutral for the second hot while still using the bare or green wire for ground. Note in this case you WON'T have 120v available, just 240v but that doesn't matter for EVSE use as unless your talking about 120v they don't use the neutral.

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This is exactly why the advice to OP for IHS is so wrong.
Tony says nothing about ground. A bozo can wire this up without any grounding at all, or move the ground to neutral. Remember, the person at the box and outlet does not know this is meant to ONLY be an outlet for EVSE connections.
He mentions 20A but has no no way of knowing, let alone assuring, compatible wiring for 12A continuous, let alone 16A
No one at the hospital will know if the circuit is dedicated. IHS do not have licensed electricians on site.

What YOU do in your garage for ONLY your use is an entirely different kettle of fish than ad hoc wiring of a public outlet. It is dangerous advice.

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The building manager having a good idea of what circuits control the outlets outside, would know that there is for example only 1 breaker for several outlets, or there is a breaker for each outlet. Given the later option, Tony's suggestion is fully code compliant and any electrician the building manager uses is capable of doing it. The L6-15 or L6-20 outlet that would be replacing the existing outlet, would supply 240V across 2 hot legs and a ground. Nobody would be able to plug in a Nema 5-15 plug into the L6-x outlet. If the electrician for whatever reason did not wire up the ground, the EVSE would fault and not work, but since nobody is suggesting having any "bozo" do the wiring this would not happen.

SageBrush said:

TonyWilliams said:

Nothing I suggested is against "code".

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So far as you know. Read this:
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1283237

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What the heck does some f-d up wiring have to do with any of my suggestions? It's a bit like posting a thread of somebody driving a car stupidly and then suggesting other people who are driving the car properly has some connection with them.

Again, none of my suggestions violate any code... they ARE the code.

Let's be frank; neither the person who wants to do the commute to the hospital, nor the hospital administratosr are going to be doing anything with electricity. That will be done by some electrician and he/she will hopefully do the correct thing.

I see you save your reasonable advice for last.

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Thanks, however all my advice was reasonable. You seem to have a burr in your saddle to want to infer otherwise.

SageBrush said:

This is exactly why the advice to OP for IHS is so wrong.
Tony says nothing about ground. A bozo can wire this up without any grounding at all, or move the ground to neutral. Remember, the person at the box and outlet does not know this is meant to ONLY be an outlet for EVSE connections.

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You seem to be inventing your own problems, none of which were stated or suggested and has absolutely nothing to do with the guy commuting from his house 34 miles to hospital.

Perhaps you stuck your finger in a light bulb socket as a kid... I have no idea.

He mentions 20A but has no no way of knowing, let alone assuring, compatible wiring for 12A continuous, let alone 16A
No one at the hospital will know if the circuit is dedicated. IHS do not have licensed electricians on site.

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Why would they need an electrician on site? I don't have an electrician on site at my house, yet electricians have done many thousands of dollars worth of work there. It's amazing!!!

Actually, when I think of most of the people I know (as in 99.9% do not have an electrician on staff.

What YOU do in your garage for ONLY your use is an entirely different kettle of fish than ad hoc wiring of a public outlet. It is dangerous advice.

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There's nothing dangerous about what I suggested. Again, there's nothing I suggested (not a single thing) that is in violation of any NEC code anywhere.

For you to suggest that there were problems with things not mentioned must take a special skill that only you have.

You are welcome to take any statement that I posted in the thread and tell me what you think is incorrect about the statement and I guarantee that I can find the NEC data to back up my position.

If you're only critique is made up BS, then I guess that's all you got!

Thanks for the recommendations. Hate to see a disagreement/fight going on here. Of course, all electrical will be to code.

Just FYI, I believe the current RV hookups are 50a 240v service for big RVs. Either way, I'll make sure all the electrical is right before I hook my car up

offtosleep said:

Thanks for the recommendations. Hate to see a disagreement/fight going on here. Of course, all electrical will be to code.

Just FYI, I believe the current RV hookups are 50a 240v service for big RVs. Either way, I'll make sure all the electrical is right before I hook my car up

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I suspect that the guy who is causing all the turmoil is well-meaning. You do need to make sure that whatever is done is safe, but no licensed electrician is going to do anything less. Uness you have a lot of experience in that area, you're not gonna know if he did it wrong or took shortcuts, so you have to rely on the experts to do what they do best. Just like in the medical profession, if you want a second opinion, go get one.

I specify the details of how an electrician may address your situation because these are things that they may not consider. I can't personally come to your hospital or home and make these modifications or installations, but there are lots of people who can do the job quite competently. Just don't be a victim to the Internet Martyrs.

Yes, RV parks have two electrical services (beyond normal household 120 volt 15 amp NEMA 5-15R):

1) 30 amp service - these are 120 volt / 30 amp outlets with a TT-30R. TT stands for "Travel Trailer" and is not listed by NEMA.

2) 50 amp service - these are 120 or 240 volt / 50 amp outlets with a NEMA 14-50R. Yes, you could use either 120 or 240 volts, just like motorhomes do.

Between Show Low and the hospital, there are numerous RV campgrounds with 50 amp service (NOTE: I recommend not mentioning voltage to campground personnel because that's just not the way they think about those outlets. You will cause confusion; just referred to the outlets as either a 30 amp or 50 amp).

I use an app called AllStays to filter for campgrounds with 50 amp service:


Ponderosa RV Resort, Lakeside, Arizona 85929 - 1664 Ponderosa Lane, GPS: 34.14221, -109.97232
928-368-6989
1664 Ponderosa Ln, Lakeside, AZ 85929

Rainbow Forest RV Park, Lakeside, Arizona 85929 - 3720 Rainbow Lake Dr, Hwy 260 and Rainbow Lake Dr. Go south 0.25 mile. We are on the left, 2nd RV park with long wooden fence., GPS: 34.16476, -109.99535
3720 Rainbow Lake Drive
928-368-5286
[email protected]

Those two should be plenty of back up to make sure that if you can't get home you can get a quick fix of electricity, in addition to the Quality Inn that has J1772.

You will always want to have the portable charger cable in your vehicle that is capable of at least 16 or 30 amps (depending on whether you buy a LEAF with 3.3 or 6.6 charging capability).

Something like JESLA is portable and capable of 40 amps, and Go-Cable is 16 amp capable. Both have the needed NEMA 14-50 plug available, in addition to the previously recommended NEMA L6-15P or L6-20P plugs at your house and work.

Still trying to figure out if I should drop the hammer on a new 2016

Just trying to calculate depreciation, fuel cost if I chose an gasser instead, etc

offtosleep said:

Just trying to calculate depreciation, fuel cost if I chose an gasser instead, etc

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It would be sad if you were considering a gasoline car at all. This is a perfect job for an electric vehicle.

To determine the depreciation on any lease vehicle is simple; it's all in the contract.

It appears your electricity is about $.12 per kilowatt in your area (which is the national average by the way). You can get something close to 4 miles per kilowatt hour while driving pretty easy, but there are some losses during charging... so let's just say 3.33 miles per kWh:

$0.036 per mile for energy = $0.12 per kWh / 3.33 miles per kWh

Each 34 mile trip will consume 10.2kWh, so about $1.22 per trip.

Making the trip 22 times per month * 68 miles = 1500 miles per month

Depreciation on your car will be the $275 per month ($0 down) for a brand-new Nissan LEAF:

$275 / 1500 miles = $0.1833 per mile

Maintenance and repairs should be zero. You'll have to replace tires on any car and have auto insurance for any car.

54,000 miles is 36 months driving at 1500 miles per month. You can pay the extra $10 a month to get 45,000 miles paid for in the lease. The excess miles will probably be around $.15, so just $1350 at lease turn in.

Or buy the car for $9100.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

What equivalent gasoline car is going to come .close to that? Not a Prius:

Even at 50mpg average, with dirt cheap gasoline at $2.37/gal = $0.047 per mile.

Can you find a lease on a Prius cheaper than $275 a month but you're going to rack up 54,000 miles on?

By the way, your electricity car should be cut in half if you're charging at the hospital.

TonyWilliams said:

offtosleep said:

Just trying to calculate depreciation, fuel cost if I chose an gasser instead, etc

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It would be sad if you were considering a gasoline car at all. This is a perfect job for an electric vehicle.

To determine the depreciation on any lease vehicle is simple; it's all in the contract.

It appears your electricity is about $.12 per kilowatt in your area (which is the national average by the way). You can get something close to 4 miles per kilowatt hour while driving pretty easy, but there are some losses during charging... so let's just say 3.33 miles per kWh:

$0.036 per mile for energy = $0.12 per kWh / 3.33 miles per kWh

Each 34 mile trip will consume 10.2kWh, so about $1.22 per trip.

Making the trip 22 times per month * 68 miles = 1500 miles per month

Depreciation on your car will be the $275 per month ($0 down) for a brand-new Nissan LEAF:

$275 / 1500 miles = $0.1833 per mile

Maintenance and repairs should be zero. You'll have to replace tires on any car and have auto insurance for any car.

54,000 miles is 36 months driving at 1500 miles per month. You can pay the extra $10 a month to get 45,000 miles paid for in the lease. The excess miles will probably be around $.15, so just $1350 at lease turn in.

Or buy the car for $9100.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

What equivalent gasoline car is going to come .close to that? Not a Prius:

Even at 50mpg average, with dirt cheap gasoline at $2.37/gal = $0.047 per mile.

Can you find a lease on a Prius cheaper than $275 a month but you're going to rack up 54,000 miles on?

By the way, your electricity car should be cut in half if you're charging at the hospital.

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Are you saying a lease should be about $275? My lease payment? NEVER done a lease before

Please educate me on leases! I know nothing! No usually buy and pay cash!

Leases are a way to drive a new car for two to four years, while paying only the depreciation of its value, plus some interest. They aren't generally the best way to drive a car unless you like to always have an almost-new one, but in the case of EVs - and especially in the case of the Leaf - they are a very good way to not just rent a car, but to buy it by paying off the "residual" value when it ends. Why do this? Several reasons. The Federal tax credit for buying an EV is basically a discount on your income tax: you have to owe at least $7500 in Federal taxes in one year to get the full amount. Needless to say, many of us don't owe $7500 in Federal income tax. When you lease a Leaf, though, Nissan gets the tax credit as the actual owner of the car, and passes on the full amount to you, the lessee, as a $7500 down payment credit. Nissan then sets the residual (as of about 2015) at about 33% of the MSRP, so when the lease ends you can buy the car for about $9000-$12,000. (Those of us who leased the cars before 2015 are in a much more complicated situation, which others can explain.)

Bottom line: if you lease a new Leaf you get to drive it for three years for less money than it takes to lease a Bolt, and then when the lease ends, you can either turn the car in if it no longer suits your needs, or buy it for the reasonable residual amount, with total cost of purchased and leasing adding up to only a bit more than buying outright. It can even cost less, if Nissan offers a discount on the residual -something that may or may not happen. You wouldn't want to try that with a Bolt, because GM both takes $5000 of the $7500 tax credit, and then adds another $5000 onto the residual, making the car too expensive to want to buy off-lease...unless GM offers discounts on residual values in 39 months.

You can probably read up on the Internet how a lease normally works. There are several peculiarities that pertain directly to electric vehicles. Again, I would LEASE a LEAF. The deal I got in California with zero negotiating was:

$33k for a 2017 LEAF-S with 30kWh battery and fast charging (you actually don't need the fast charging, but it won't hurt either) - in leasing terms, this is the capitalization cost

$14k discount ($7500 IRS tax credit to Nissan plus $6500 discount from Nissan) - this comes directly off the capitalization cost

$19k - the net capitalized cost of this vehicle is $33k - $14k = $19k

$9.1k residual (what you are going to pay for the car to buy it in 3 years). Or, you can just toss them the keys and buy or lease your next new car. Nissan has recently been known to negotiate this value down when it's time to turn-in the car. There's no guarantee that will happen for you but it is something to consider.

$10k total cost of LEAF for 36 months (monthly payment is about $277 per month, with California "use" tax). This is simply $19k net cap cost minus the $9.1k residual = $10k total cost to you to use the car, plus any interest (money factor... see below)

$0 down with good credit - don't be suckered into making a down payment on a lease. You are renting. There's NO ADVANTAGE whatsoever for you to pay for rent ahead of time. If you want to lower the monthly payment, use that down payment money to make some of those monthly rent (lease) payments. DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO A DEALER.

Another term you'll hear is money factor, which is nothing more than the cost of money. In a loan, it's reflected as interest rate, but a money factor multiplied by 2400 is interest rate. I can assure you that if you have good credit the money factor will be something like 0.0001.

Don't lease a car for a number of years plus a month or three, like 37 months or 38 months or 39 months. You will pay a full year of insurance and vehicle license plate fees to turn the car in in just a few months, plus if your tires are getting close to being too worn out, you're not helping yourself by extending the lease arbitrarily.

You absolutely will buy at least one set of tires for this car, because the originals are not going to go 54,000 miles.

$0 down with good credit - don't be suckered into making a down payment on a lease. You are renting. There's NO ADVANTAGE whatsoever for you to pay for rent ahead of time. If you want to lower the monthly payment, use that down payment money to make some of those monthly rent (lease) payments. DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO A DEALER.

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Making a down payment can get you a better deal, precisely because dealers like to get cash up front. Whatever that down payment is, though, it will be lost if the car is totaled, so think of it as a gamble, and put no more down than you are willing to risk losing. My $2k down payment has more than paid for itself over the almost four years I've been leasing. Zero down is indeed the safest way to lease, but it isn't usually the least expensive.