Is the Leaf right for us?

Hi all,

I have been a lurker for awhile and finally decided to join the forum now that we are getting closer to make the purchase. But there is just a little bit of concern in the back of my head that worries me. It has to do with battery degradation and the range chart. Just want to get your thoughts on whether or not the Leaf is right for us (purchase).



A little background on us and how the Leaf will be used:

2 years ago, our first Altima (94) finally gave out and we were down to 1 car (07 Altima). We were able to make it work with just 1 car since the wife commutes in the car and I commute on motorcycle. Every now and then, we would need to use a second car, we would borrow our in-law's van. It had worked for us but not ideal. Now we are considering getting a commuter for the wife, hence the Leaf discussion.

My wife commutes about 24 miles each way, from Kent, WA to Elliott Bay in Seattle. 20 miles of that is on the freeway. Based on the range chart, at 0% degradation, 80% of daily charge would be perfectly fine for her to commute in a Leaf. He might be able to run some errands on the way home. My concern would be how much battery degradation would occur in the next 3-5years and beyond? Would we still be able enough juice in the "tank" to cover that range (+/- with weather factoring in)?

Also, would we be able to get by with just the 110V outlet or would you recommend the 220V EVSE (notice I didn't say charger. I have been reading the forum).

We are considering the SV with Quick Charge

Thanks for your input.

Tony and Tina

Tony and Tina,
Welcome. There are people on here far more knowledgable than I, but I'll put my $.02 in. My commute is 25 miles each way. It's all country roads, but much of it is spent cruising at 50-55mph (empty country roads...one advantage to being in the sticks). My car is leased for 2 years, so I'm not as worried about degredation. That said, I still do what I can to take care of the car. I charge to 100% because I want that extra range in case I want to make some stops. I have the charge timer set so that it reaches 100% charge only 5 minutes before I get in and drive away (at least that's what I tell the computer to do). I get home every day with about 45-47% battery life left. So I'd say your wife's commute should be no problem. Even with some degredation, you should be fine. That's assuming the speeds are kept reasonable on the freeway. Cruise at 75mph and you may be pushing the edge of range in 3-5 years after degredation and running the heater?

As for 110 vs 220, I'd definitely go 220. With 110, it took my car a solid 12 hours to recharge after work. So I had to plug in as soon as I got home and had to leave it there all night. With 220, it recharges in just a few hours. Plus I can run all kinds of errands. I get home, then bring my kids to football/soccer, etc...and can still have plenty of time to recharge for the next morning.

Hey guys,

I bought a 2013 SV w/quickcharge as you're considering (three weeks ago), and have a 20 mile commute, 95% on freeways. My commute is slightly hilly and I seem to manage about 4.2 efficiency (65-70mph In right two lanes, slow lanes in CA). I charge strictly on 120v at home, but luckily have a 220v at work. I only use the work charger on those rare occasions requiring some extra charge. I can charge to 80% at home, get to work with about 54% battery, and get home with about 32% battery (my car is two weeks old). This has been fine when I want to run errands, or drive to 6 mile away lunch and back with passengers.

The most up to date degredation expectations chart is here, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It is mostly for '11-'12-'13 (beginning of the year only) batteries. '13 late models have what's being touted as a slightly better battery, and from what I've read the '14s are going to be a bit better still (degradation in heat-wise). So YMMV, and the estimates may be high for loss for your/my cars. Seattle is expected to be at 85.4% in three years, and 79.6% in five, 65.3% in ten years. Not bad! Seattle is one of the best placed to have that battery.

I would love a 220v, 30amp charger, but the 120v has been fine so far. It has never affected my use of the car. I WORRY (key word) that I'll get into a situation where I get home with a low battery, want to go out, and will have to wait, but it hasn't been a reality yet. The best I did was on a 70 mile drive, plug into 120v with 15miles, go to do errands an hour later with 19 miles, come home with 12 miles, plug back in on 120v, and it was charged to 80% for work the next morning.

Also hunt around this site before purchasing to find fair prices. Also KBB.com, edmunds, and truecar will help you find a fair value. You can also get values from autonationdirect.com. I wound up paying 31,820 for mine (CA seems higher price-wise), SV w/QC&lights, protection pkg, floor mats, mud flaps. I had all the online info in hand, showed them a printout for a SV w/QC&lights with nothing else, said I'd take the car on the paper or the car on their lot for that price, and got what I wanted. You may get a better deal once the 2014's are out too. Oh also things like cargo nets/cover, etc can be had online for cheaper than at a dealer mostly.

Hey there:

Just got an SV with quick charge myself, so my experience is all with "new battery." My commute is around 30 miles each way, so I am definitely pushing the range. I charge to 100% right before I leave (and let the CarWings warm the car while plugged in). Most of my drive is on freeway at 65-70 miles per hour. I don't even use Eco, but drive in B mode. The overall terrain is pretty flat, no major hills or valleys. Everything I have seen in mild climates the 100% charge (as long as it is not sitting there) doesn't seem to impact battery life.

With this I tend to get in with 60-65% of charge left, and could get back home pretty easily without recharging if I just don't stomp on the floor and take a little care. I do run AC/Heat and with SV it doesn't seem to matter more than 1-2 miles of range. I do however plug into the 110 at work and in 8 hours am usually back at 100% anyway. I have no range anxiety, and even as winter hits and I drop a bit in range in winter I should still be ok. If I drive it like its my Tesla I will get to work with 55% charge, but that is kind of insane.

I did notice that taking the tire pressure from 36 recommended to 40 PSI made a big difference in efficiency, and as other have pointed out the first 100-200 miles the tires are not as easy to roll, so your mileage will improve.

I would recommend that you get a 220V dryer plug at home and just convert the included cable to 220v capable here (with 110 adapter). I bought a unit for $800, but using the included cable would be just fine.

Living in the Puget Sound region, battery degradation should not be as much of a concern as if you lived in Phoenix or even certain parts of California.

In the same Wiki where you got Tony's chart, go to "Battery Degradation." There is another chart where another member came up with a battery degradation model based upon location. Using downtown LA as the baseline, Leafers in Seattle should expect to retain 80% capacity for at almost 5 years. It would take over 8 years to reach the 70% point, and at 10 years you'd still be at 65%.

These figures are not set in stone, and perhaps are a bit optimistic, but at 24 miles one way, having a Leaf should work fine for the commute for several years. Once it hits 70% you may not be able to do much more than just commute, especially in winter, but if you can charge at work at even 120 volts that would help.

Although you can get by with 120 volt charging, I would recommend getting a 240 volt EVSE for the home. One advantage is that you can simultaneously charge AND pre-heat (or cool) the cabin, something you cannot do when plugged into a 120 volt outlet. Also, while the model you are considering does have the 6.6kW (6.0 actual) on board charger, unless you need a very quick turnaround time, you can make do with a 16amp or 20 amp charger for considerably less money than a 30 amp model. The EVSE Upgrade (20 amp max) is fine, but if you want a dedicated unit for the home the Bosch PowerMax 16A/12 is $450 and the Clipper Creek LCS-25 (20 amp) is $495 for the hard-wired version and $545 for the plug-in.

Thanks for the feedback. This is a great site with a lot of good real-life feedback from actual users. I really appreciate it.

The consensus I am gathering is that the Pacific NW (particularly Seattle) is a ideal place for BEV with it's mild winter and relatively cool summer. Battery degradation seems to be minimum here. That addressed my biggest concern. If the battery pack would retain 80% after 5 years and 70% after 7, I think I'd be thrilled. That would allow my wife to commute and still do some errands on the weekends. With the quick charge, there will be plenty of refueling stations here to keep us going.

Thanks again. Now we just have to wait and locate a red (grey int.) SV with QC.

Tony and Tina

TonyAndTina said:

Now we just have to wait and locate a red (grey int.) SV with QC

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You can search local dealer inventory. http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, build and price, "view local inventory". You have to search dealer by dealer, but it works pretty well. When you're too specific (according to stock) it'll add things that aren't what you want, but relevant items come up first. Good hunting!

TonyAndTina said:

The consensus I am gathering is that the Pacific NW (particularly Seattle) is a ideal place for BEV with it's mild winter and relatively cool summer. Battery degradation seems to be minimum here. That addressed my biggest concern. If the battery pack would retain 80% after 5 years and 70% after 7, I think I'd be thrilled. That would allow my wife to commute and still do some errands on the weekends. With the quick charge, there will be plenty of refueling stations here to keep us going.

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The Pacific NW is definitely one of the best places for a BEV. The modeling work I and surfingslovak have done suggests that given your location you are likely to get about 100,000 miles before the battery gets down to 70% of original capacity. You may want to download the spreadsheet and have a look at the calibration tab. There are 4 entries for Seattle and surrounding area, and all come in at slightly over 100,000 miles. Some have a shorter predicted lifespan because they put a LOT of miles on the Leaf each year, but are still predicted to reach 100,000 miles. There is one member from Washington state who has about 94,000 miles on his Leaf and has lost about 20% of capacity as I recall (he puts about 40,000 miles per year on the Leaf). You can enter your anticipated numbers and get a reasonably good estimate of capacity in the first 3 years. After calibrating the model, it generally does a very good job for the first 3 years of ownership. However, we have no way of knowing if calendar capacity loss will in fact slow down (supposedly proportional to the square root of time) for this particular battery. I have spent about 200 hours working on the model to get it to this point. Note that the model applies to 2011-12 Leafs only. The slight tweaks to the electrolyte in the later 2013 may improve longevity slightly, probably would not be worse than the earlier battery. We will know more in a couple of years.

to Stoaty and surfingslovak: your work is incredible! I do agree with your finding that heat tend to have the biggest impact to battery life. And cycle time (mileage) would also have an impact. Since the Leaf and the battery pack is still relatively new, you still don't have a conclusive study on how "time" play a part in battery degradation. But I would assume that, if the battery is being maintained properly (being used regularly and within normal charge/discharge cycle), the Time component may not have that much impact as cycle time would have. Isn't it true that most rechargeable battery is rated by how many cycles?

IF that argument is true, I can assume, with fairly good confident, that after 100K miles, I would still have 80% capacity. At 15K miles/year, that's 7 years. Since nobody has a Leaf for that long, I guess only Time will tell what happens down the road (pun intended).

Tony and Tina

TonyAndTina said:

But I would assume that, if the battery is being maintained properly (being used regularly and within normal charge/discharge cycle), the Time component may not have that much impact as cycle time would have.

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Not true. In the calibrated model, a Leaf in the "average" climate (Los Angeles Civic Center) is expected to lose about 6.9% capacity in one year. For periods greater than one year, the 6.9% is multiplied by the square root of the number of years to get the total calendar capacity loss. Thus at 4 years the calendar capacity loss would be about 6.9 X sqrt(4) = 6.9 X 2 = 13.8%. That is how much capacity loss would be expected if the Leaf just sat around for 4 years at about 60% state of charge and was never driven. If you put the Leaf in the ice box, it would be much less, in Phoenix a lot more.

interesting... So the examples in Seattle you have sited, the loss in capacity is due to both TIME and cycle (mileage). One member put on 94K miles and lost 20% in capacity. Since he put on $40K per year, the time span was roughly 2.5 years. So the time component is 6.9% X (2.5)^.5 = 6.9% x 1.58 = 10.9% loss of capacity in that time frame. So roughly 10% was lost due to the 94K miles put on the car?

So if I put on 100K in let's say 7 years (15K average), I would lose 10% in capacity due to mileage. The time component would add another (6.9% x 7^0.5) 18% loss. So by the end of 7 years, I would have roughly 72%.

Still pretty good, I'd say. Please check my math.

Tony and Tina

TonyAndTina said:

interesting... So the examples in Seattle you have sited, the loss in capacity is due to both TIME and cycle (mileage). One member put on 94K miles and lost 20% in capacity. Since he put on $40K per year, the time span was roughly 2.5 years. So the time component is 6.9% X (2.5)^.5 = 6.9% x 1.58 = 10.9% loss of capacity in that time frame. So roughly 10% was lost due to the 94K miles put on the car?

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Nope. You really need to download the spreadsheet and plug in some numbers. Those numbers would be correct for an "average" climate (LA Civic Center). Significantly less for Seattle.

So if I put on 100K in let's say 7 years (15K average), I would lose 10% in capacity due to mileage.

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It isn't that straightforward. Every 10,000 miles driven in Los Angeles Civic Center at efficiency of 4 miles per kwh will cause roughly a 2% loss in capacity from cycling. So that would be 20% loss in 10 years for L.A. under those conditions. Seattle will have less cycling loss (about 1.4% per 10,000 miles), but that has to be adjusted for your efficiency. If you average 2.8 miles per kwh, you will have to cycle the pack twice as much as you would getting 5.6 miles per kwh (my own average). You have to download the spreadsheet and plug in the numbers in the yellow boxes on the first page to get a personalized estimate of the capacity loss at various time. There is also a chart that shows how much is due to calendar loss, how much to cycling loss and how much to loss from solar loading (heating the battery by parking in the sun).

I got you. My quick math is just way for me to understand the math behind it. The adjust cycle loss is the percentage loss of what's remaining from prior year. Totally makes sense. Plus solar loss from sitting in the sun and "cook". Cool modeling! (I build models out of Excel at work so I really appreciate what you did here).

I plugged in the numbers in the spread sheet and it turned out to be about 77% remaining after 7 years and ~100K. I think by that time (2020), there should be a Leaf 3 with at least a 200 mile liquid cooled battery, right?

Tony and Tina

Tony&Trina:

Welcome! Location and commute distance, check. Charging stations everywhere, check. EV's available at multiple local dealerships, check. Gasoline priced higher than average and electricity priced lower than average, check. Electricity mostly produced by low carbon sources, check. Smart consumer who researches their purchase, check. You're approved!

Since nobody mentioned it, 50 mi RT in Seattle will be challenging to nearly impossible without L2 EVSE (240 V with 3.3 KW, 16 Amp minimum). You can go with EVSEUpgrade.com or have a station installed (ClipperCreek LCS-25 is one of the least expensive and highly rated versions) but I think you will find the L2 is mandatory over there (multiple threads, just do a search). A 40 mile commute "might" be possible over there, but still tight in the winter and leave you very little room for after work errands since the car will need to charge 10-12 hr on L1 to refill. If you could charge while at work, then it would be no-brainer, but most people aren't that lucky (there are multiple threads on that topic as well).

You will learn about the dreaded "raining inside on the windshield" and find that using the heater is required. I would definitely go with the QC package and 6 KW charger since you have stations everywhere. We, on the other hand, don't have many stations over here, but don't have to worry about rain (either inside or outside the car).

Edit: BTW, modify you're profile so that your location shows. It helps since we don't always remember where everyone is located.

TonyAndTina said:

I plugged in the numbers in the spread sheet and it turned out to be about 77% remaining after 7 years and ~100K. I think by that time (2020), there should be a Leaf 3 with at least a 200 mile liquid cooled battery, right?

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Close, but no cigar. Nissan is working on improving battery chemistry so that no liquid cooling (more expensive to build, wastes energy) is necessary. Most observers think liquid cooling is a short term workaround until there are better batteries. I hope Nissan is successful. They say they have a new "hot" battery that has gone through 80% of the testing and that they hope to release around March, 2014 which will solve the heat problems. The new battery has ceramic coated separator and some kind of electrolyte tweak that is supposed to give it the magical powers that have been ascribed to it. Time will tell if this is more marketing, or a real breakthrough.

Well, I'm envious of some responders efficiencies (ahem, Stoaty); really, 5.6 kW/hr? I get 4.6 and it's been that way for months now. Not able to make it budge.

To the original poster: I lease a 2013 S with QC package; my round trip commute is 40 miles and 8 come home with 52-56% on the battery meter, from close to 100% at the start. You'll find many L2 chargers using plugshare.com and Carwings (if installed - remember I have a S model) and can use QC's at Nissan dealerships. Petsonally, I have 3 L2 chargers and a QC charger available for free along my commute; I'll bet you find something similar in the Kent area! So, I only need to top off at night with the L1 trickle charger from my garage outlet.

Be creative with your power sources, learn to use the area freebies, and you'll find charging the Leaf is pretty much a non-issue.

Reddy said:

Tony&Trina:

Welcome! Location and commute distance, check. Charging stations everywhere, check. EV's available at multiple local dealerships, check. Gasoline priced higher than average and electricity priced lower than average, check. Electricity mostly produced by low carbon sources, check. Smart consumer who researches their purchase, check. You're approved!

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Thanks Reddy. I like doing my homework so I can make an informed decision. You guys have been very helpful. I will look into a L2. At 50 miles daily, L1 is barely enough. L2 would sustain longer daily range.

Stoaty said:

Close, but no cigar. Nissan is working on improving battery chemistry so that no liquid cooling (more expensive to build, wastes energy) is necessary. Most observers think liquid cooling is a short term workaround until there are better batteries. I hope Nissan is successful. They say they have a new "hot" battery that has gone through 80% of the testing and that they hope to release around March, 2014 which will solve the heat problems. The new battery has ceramic coated separator and some kind of electrolyte tweak that is supposed to give it the magical powers that have been ascribed to it. Time will tell if this is more marketing, or a real breakthrough.

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One can only hope, right? If we do go thru with our Leaf purchase now, I will keep my finger crossed that the replace in 2020 will be another Leaf with 200 miles range or a CUV like Juke with 150.

Woosie said:

Be creative with your power sources, learn to use the area freebies, and you'll find charging the Leaf is pretty much a non-issue.

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Along with looking to a L2, I will keep my eyes out of freebies, for sure. Just like Wi-Fi hotspots, I have a feeling charging stations will be more accessible and maybe even free.

TonyAndTina said:

I like doing my homework so I can make an informed decision. You guys have been very helpful. I will look into a L2. At 50 miles daily, L1 is barely enough. L2 would sustain longer daily range.

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not everyone here agrees with me, but my rule of thumb is that in mild climates you really should have L2 charging at home if possible for anything over 40 miles per day. The cheapest (other than building your own) and most flexible EVSE is the EVSE Upgrade which converts the trickle charge cord that comes with the car into a dual voltage multiple amperage workhorse. Literally thousands of us use it as our only L2 EVSE at home, and it is invaluable on the road if you are away from public EVSEs. It won't charge a 2013 SV quite as fast as a standard 30A residential EVSE, but it will charge it three or four times as fast as L1, depending on the amperage of the 240v circuit it is plugged into.

Ray

Woosie said:

You'll find many L2 chargers using plugshare.com and Carwings (if installed - remember I have a S model) and can use QC's at Nissan dealerships.

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DO NOT rely solely on CarWings for charging station info! Its data is out of date and lacks a lot of charging stations that are in operation.

Another Leafer found out the hard way when CarWings directed him to Thousand Oaks Nissan for a charge only to find out that the dealership had gone out of business. PlugShare will also let you know if the charging station is part of a membership network or if costs are involved just to access it (such as pay lots/parking garages).

Just want to thank the board for the knowledge and direct feedback to this thread. You help me at ease with my battery concern. If we can get just ballpark close to the degradation model (77% after 7 years), we'd be thrilled.

Last night, we took delivery of a SL w/ Premium. The Wife originally wanted just a SV with QC. But after looking at the features and difference in prices, she thought we might as well go all out and put everything on it. Since Seattle's climate is kind to the battery, we went ahead with the purchase.

I drove home last night and immediately setup the charger timer and climate control timer. The wife drove it to work today and reported back a VERY POSITIVE experience, despite her initial apprehension with range.

What we learned so far:
- The range is OVERLY conservative. At 80%, it shows a range of 61 miles. After the Wife drove 23 miles to work, she still has 54 miles range (10 mi. @ 60mph, 5 mi. @ 40mph, 8 mi. @ surface street). Thoughts?
- B Mode is great in stop and go traffic. Save on brakes and energy!
- Climate Control Timer = a warm car in the morning when the Wife left at 6AM. She loved that!
- L1 might be enough? We will see how things go this week and over the weekend. Considering the results we are getting with good driving habit, we might get away with 8 hr of charging at L1. We will see.

So far, we are extremely pleased!