2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

we are still talking about weight? Seriously... Told you its THE WHEELS!!

If it really was the wheel sizes / aero differences, then I wonder why we didn't see differences between the non-plus S, SV, SL trims?

jdcbomb said:

If it really was the wheel sizes / aero differences, then I wonder why we didn't see differences between the non-plus S, SV, SL trims?

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We see what Nissan wants us to see. The very same issue happened with Prius. I was part of a group that was invited to 2010 reveal during Detroit Auto Show. While looking over the car we noticed the engineer's notebook and started flipping thru it. Small wheel highway performance; 51 MPG, big wheel performance; 47 MPG. Did that tidbit of info make it to the Toyota pressroom?

No it didn't.

FYI; did you notice there is also a height difference between wheel sizes?

DaveinOlyWA said:

we are still talking about weight? Seriously... Told you its THE WHEELS!!

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Anyway, if it's THE WHEELS!!, then why hasn't the S emerged here as having clearly more range in warm climates than the SV and SL cars with 17" wheels?

I think the existing SV & SL are about the same weight as the S tire setup aren't they or at least close. I thought the S was like 20 lbs and the SV & SL were 22? I could be way off. I wonder if the new SV & SL have some heavier wheel than the S? If it is the wheels that is "fixable"

BrockWI said:

I think the existing SV & SL are about the same weight as the S tire setup aren't they or at least close. I thought the S was like 20 lbs and the SV & SL were 22? I could be way off. I wonder if the new SV & SL have some heavier wheel than the S? If it is the wheels that is "fixable"

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None of the trims weigh the same so it should be apparent that weight is not the determining factor. TBT, the real question seems to be "why hasn't this come up before?"

Well, it has and the tire size comment was discounted then too.

Are the tires a different brand? Maybe different rolling resistance.

DougWantsALeaf said:

Are the tires a different brand? Maybe different rolling resistance.

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Well, that would account for part of it. Ecopias claim to be most efficient tire despite lacking a grading system for rolling resistance so that should account for at least part of the improvement. How much difference is anyone's guess really.

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they kept the 147HP version of the Motor in the S. I'm not claiming that's the case, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

LeftieBiker said:

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they kept the 147HP version of the Motor in the S. I'm not claiming that's the case, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

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I think you're correct about S Plus' motor. I remember reading the marketing (Nissan sales only) comparison brochure on the 2019s
where it indicated that. This would be logical to still provide an increase in range, while providing a lower cost Leaf Plus for those
whose key concern is range improvement over the 2019 40 kWh version. If not, many will probably be disappointed and not willing
to pay for the additional features based on present & future BEV competition, e.g. Bolt & Tesla M3. Actually from a marketing standpoint,
probably only the SL should have the newer motor, i.e. there's no need for Nissan to try and be performance competitive with
other BEVs.

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but has Nissan announced how many Leaf Pluses they plan to produce for the US market? I'm a little surprised to see that there is only one Leaf Plus in my area (just north of New York City), whereas the local volume Leaf dealer just received 13 new 40 kWh Leafs. So will the Leaf Plus be produced at roughly the same volume as the Leaf, or will it be constrained?

If you go to https://www3.nissan.co.jp/vehicles/new/leaf/specifications.html and select 40 vs 62 kWh, they say it's the EM57 motor for both.

'13 to '17 Leaf also had EM57: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=25267.

cwerdna said:

If you go to https://www3.nissan.co.jp/vehicles/new/leaf/specifications.html and select 40 vs 62 kWh, they say it's the EM57 motor for both.

'13 to '17 Leaf also had EM57: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=25267.

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That's why I wrote "version." They bumped up the power output with inverter modifications (much more power available, albeit for a limited burst) and leaving the S with the 40kwh mod instead of the 62kwh mod would likely provide the extra range.

Kieran973 said:

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but has Nissan announced how many Leaf Pluses they plan to produce for the US market? I'm a little surprised to see that there is only one Leaf Plus in my area (just north of New York City), whereas the local volume Leaf dealer just received 13 new 40 kWh Leafs. So will the Leaf Plus be produced at roughly the same volume as the Leaf, or will it be constrained?

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The Plus has only been on AutoTrader for a couple of weeks and I’m already counting over 125 and the number keeps going up every day. Some of the Plus models are already getting discounted. Also the distribution seems to be spread out all over the country, not just in CARB states.

I would not be surprised to see Nissan go all in on the Plus within a year. The Plus is in a unique market position right now and it could easily compete with any of the lower cost 200+ BEVs on the market. I think Nissan knows this and will try to explot its’ position by making the Leaf Plus widely available.

That is Nissan’s advantage. The Niro, which could have been a Plus killer is going to take a year to get beyond California.

LeftieBiker said:

They bumped up the power output with inverter modifications (much more power available, albeit for a limited burst) and leaving the S with the 40kwh mod instead of the 62kwh mod would likely provide the extra range.

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Actually, to develop more power output from the motor, the necessary re-design is in motor, i.e. just a "mod" to the existing
motor controller (inverter) would have a minor effect. Furthermore, a greater motor power output (energy per unit time - kW)
requires more energy input besides a just a motor re-design, i.e. higher peak currents from the battery - (a bigger battery).
Remember, the voltage input for the Leaf Plus is the same ~ 360 volts. The same applies to an ICE, i.e. a bigger ICE with more power
output requires more fuel (energy) input - via supercharger/turbo. Just making a bigger ICE (more displacement) doesn't result
in more motor power, i.e. it can't create the needed energy input.

Note: Seriously doubt that the EM57 motor output was limited by the controller design. Although there may have been a firmware
limit/restriction in the controller, i.e. to prevent damage.

You're mistaken. Electric motors can usually produce more power without modification just by getting more power sent to them - in this case from the inverter. You seem to be assuming that the Leaf's original inverter can handle all of the current output the battery can produce. In fact, there was no reason to try for that. A bigger pack would be needed for a racing application with large, continuous power demands. It isn't needed for for half a minute of increased power to the motor, as long as the pack's maximum discharge rate isn't exceeded. I've spent long enough (18 years) following EV forums to know that much.

TexasLeaf said:

Kieran973 said:

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but has Nissan announced how many Leaf Pluses they plan to produce for the US market? I'm a little surprised to see that there is only one Leaf Plus in my area (just north of New York City), whereas the local volume Leaf dealer just received 13 new 40 kWh Leafs. So will the Leaf Plus be produced at roughly the same volume as the Leaf, or will it be constrained?

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The Plus has only been on AutoTrader for a couple of weeks and I’m already counting over 125 and the number keeps going up every day. Some of the Plus models are already getting discounted. Also the distribution seems to be spread out all over the country, not just in CARB states.

I would not be surprised to see Nissan go all in on the Plus within a year. The Plus is in a unique market position right now and it could easily compete with any of the lower cost 200+ BEVs on the market. I think Nissan knows this and will try to explot its’ position by making the Leaf Plus widely available.

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Thanks. I've just been searching on the Nissan USA site since cars.com, autotrader, etc. don't seem to distinguish the 40 kWh from the 62 kWh Leafs. Though I just checked cargurus and they've added SV Plus and and SL Plus as searchable trims.

LeftieBiker said:

Electric motors can produce more power just by getting more power sent to them - in this case from the inverter.

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The controller (inverter) can't create energy, and the motor is not typically way over-designed to significantly increase its power
output with just a controller redesign. As I mentioned, the controller's firmware may limit some max power output, but little
can be gained without the battery being capable of supplying the necessary peak energy input - peak current continuously.

LeftieBiker said:

And IC engines can also produce more power from cycling more fuel/air mixture efficiently per revolution. No size increase needed.

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Yes, increasing the efficiency of an ICE would increase its output per unit of energy, but given the overall ICE inefficiency little gains
can be achieved. Just review what ICEV manufacturers are now doing to increase the power output of small engines, adding turbos
to achieve the necessary peak power and still complying with MPG requirements, i.e. increasing the peak power input.

LeftieBiker said:

A bigger pack would be needed for a racing application with large, continuous power demands. It isn't needed for for half a minute of increased power to the motor, as long as the pack's maximum discharge rate isn't exceeded.

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A BEV system design (motor/controller/battery) is NOT just designed for your "minute of increased power", it must supply a given
power output for a realistic time period, requiring more amps. The 24 kWh Leaf battery can only safely supply about 200 - 250 amps
peak continuously. Whereas the Tesla MS battery in the Ludicrous Mode can supply over 1000 amps, i.e. 85 kWh battery.
The Model S P100D (dual motor) uses a 100 kWh battery (about 25% more peak current).

You are either misunderstanding some basics here, or just love to argue and obfuscate. I don't plan on spending long on this, but here goes for a short reply:

The controller (inverter) can't create energy, and the motor is not typically way over-designed to significantly increase its power
output with just a controller redesign. As I mentioned, the controller's firmware may limit some max power output, but little
can be gained without the battery being capable of supplying the necessary peak energy input - peak current continuously.

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You don't understand (or are misrepresenting) where the 'bottleneck' is here for power flow. It isn't the battery, and it isn't primarily the controller. It is the inverter. Nissan wasn't trying to design a 200HP Hot Hatch with a 50 mile range when they put the original Leaf into production, and they still weren't trying for more power until the 2018 redesign. So they gave the drivetrain an inverter that balances cost, performance, and energy economy. They could have given the 30kwh Leaf 147HP, or even the 24kwh Leaf, but the marked drop in range with any spirited driving at all would have been bad for the car's reputation. You do have half a point, though: the 40kwh pack was needed before the inverter output was boosted, because they needed the extra capacity for adequate range with the extra power. I know that you think you know what's going on with C rates and voltages, and you seem to understand the concepts. You just don't understand how battery capacity relates (and doesn't relate) to horsepower in a modern, non-racing EV.

I think that once the 40kwh pack is transplanted into Gen I Leafs by backyard EV mechanics, they will be happy to discover that the range is closer to 200 miles than to 150 - mainly because of the smaller inverter.

From Ars Technica, when the 2018 came out (Nissan seems to have stopped mentioning the inverter early in 2018):

New powertrain

The outgoing Leaf might have sold well, but there's no escaping the fact that, by 2017's standards, it was outdated technology. The electric motor has been carried over, but there's a new inverter, among other improvements. Power output is boosted from 80kW (107hp) to 110kW (147hp), and it's more torquey—320Nm (236ft-lbs) in the 2018 versus 254Nm (187ft-lbs) in the old model.[/i][/b]

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