LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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ENIAC said:
DNAinaGoodWay said:
.....but what are the odds that the leaked configurator was a ruse to throw us off and the reality will be much better, maximizing the wow factor for the reveal?
I'm gonna say.... 1,000,000:1

In my mind the only critical "open" at this point is the range. I truly hate to think this but my gut says many here will be very disappointed with the G2 final specs vs MSRP. But I'm positive Nissan can build it, launch it, get it to the dealerships, scale production, and service it. At the end of the day that's what matters in an auto manufacturer.

Ah well, so much for my last thin thread of hope. I'll wish Nissan luck in their business strategy and will definitely consider them next lease cycle in 2020 if they have a competitive product on offer. Bound to be some good options in the future. Nice of them to give 3 free months too.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
ENIAC said:
DNAinaGoodWay said:
.....but what are the odds that the leaked configurator was a ruse to throw us off and the reality will be much better, maximizing the wow factor for the reveal?
I'm gonna say.... 1,000,000:1

In my mind the only critical "open" at this point is the range. I truly hate to think this but my gut says many here will be very disappointed with the G2 final specs vs MSRP. But I'm positive Nissan can build it, launch it, get it to the dealerships, scale production, and service it. At the end of the day that's what matters in an auto manufacturer.

Ah well, so much for my last thin thread of hope. I'll wish Nissan luck in their business strategy and will definitely consider them next lease cycle in 2020 if they have a competitive product on offer. Bound to be some good options in the future. Nice of them to give 3 free months too.
I'll watch the reveal on the 5th but in the back of my mind will be my 2016 Leaf SV with a SOH of 88% after only 5400 miles.
 
SageBrush said:
Interleaf said:
Assume 10% grade, and travelling at 70 mph which on flat ground will require 20 kW. Lifting the EV at 2,000 kg up 1 meter requires 2000*9.8 = 19,600 Ws. The EV is climbing at the rate of 70 mph on 10% grade or 11,200 m/h or 3.11 m/s. Thus power required is 61 kW. 61+20-25 = 56 kW battery depletion rate.
The horizontal movement adds another 20 - 25 kW*
Total power for your example is 79 - 84 kW .
And that is before drivetrain and battery energy losses are factored in for the climb. Close to 90 kW total is ballpark.
Wrong - you need to subtract the 25 kW available from the Rex, to get at the battery depletion rate. Furthermore, the climb by itself does not result in significant drivetrain losses - it is the speed that results in losses, and that has already been accounted for.
 
Furthermore, the climb by itself does not result in significant drivetrain losses - it is the speed that results in losses, and that has already been accounted for.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that climbing a steep hill doesn't drain the battery - it's doing it with any speed that does so. Which brings us back to BMWs climbing hills at 9mph. Since most people want to be able to drive up steep hills somewhat faster than that, I'm not sure what your point is here.
 
Interleaf said:
GRA said:
Yes, it's true and it was widely discussed at the time here. The blame doesn't lie with CARB, it's with BMW for choosing the route they did solely to maximize their credits. There simply wouldn't be a BEVx category if they hadn't asked CARB to create it, although as it turns out they were given green rather than white stickers.
-- You mean BMW voluntarily chose to limit Rex to 6.5% SoC?
Why would they do that?
As stated, that's exactly what they did, to allow them to get full credits for a BEV instead of partial credits for a PHEV, in a category they themselves had asked be established, which allowed them to sell far more of their conventional ICEs. CARB's opinion was that it might make BEVs more acceptable to some people who would otherwise be turned off by their short range and consequent range anxiety, so more would be sold and more miles would be driven electrically. It had just that effect, which as I mentioned is shown by the relative sales proportions of the i3 BEV vs.the REx. At the time it was introduced, the only BEVs that had 100+ mile range cost $50k and up, so the i3 REx was relatively speaking a bargain.

Now that BEVs with equal or greater range than the REx are available for under $40k, the justification for such a design has faded away to nothing. That some owners would want/need to use their cars in ways that limiting the REx to only come on when the SoC had fallen to 6.5% wouldn't allow was foreseeable, but was considered acceptable by CARB. I thought then and now that anyone willing to spend that kind of money for a PEV would be likely to drive the car to maximize the amount of electric driving they did, so the limitation wasn't needed, but given the amount of PHEV drivers who never use (if they even know) of 'hold' modes, that's not necessarily the case.

Interleaf said:
Did BMW need a bullet in the head? Let's face it. They were arm twisted by CARB due to some enviro-activist who wanted to reduce CO2 but was so incompetent that he/she could not see how his/her bad decision would hurt EV adoption. This is what happens when some activist who just graduated from a free university in sociology is given the power to decide on life and death matters. That is why there is a class action suit against CARB, for forcing range-anxiety on the masses with this nasty 6.5% decision. The proper solution was to limit the power of the Rex to let's say 10 kW to discourage long-distance traveling, but allow Rex to turn on at 100% SoC so there would be no range anxiety. The way it is now, the i3 can drive 70 mph without any charge, forever, and thus become an ICE. So it can easily be abused.
No, it can be driven for about an hour (maybe 1.5 hours in the current model), and then you have to stop and fill up. Anyone who wants to drive on gas all the time could just get themselves a far cheaper and more convenient ICE, or a PiP if they just wanted an green HOV sticker (and many did).

Interleaf said:
And BMW can discourage BEV adoption by claiming that a 70 mph Rex is needed, which can only be found on a super expensive i3. A Rex should be for finding a charger, not for travelling 500 miles on gasoline at 70 mph.
If BMW's intent was to discourage BEV adoption, I'd say they've failed. As to a REx, I personally have always thought that a straight PHEV was more generally salable and so it's proved, but the REx probably drives more miles (and a higher %) electrically, which was CARB's intent. That you attribute this to politics/ideology of someone at CARB is your opinion - the record of who did what and why is pretty clear, and available to the public.
 
SageBrush said:
@GRA
"Yes, it's true and it was widely discussed at the time here. The blame doesn't lie with CARB, it's with BMW for choosing the route they did solely to maximize their credits. There simply wouldn't be a BEVx category if they hadn't asked CARB to create it, although as it turns out they were given green rather than white stickers. Here's some history:"

Are you saying that BMW could have certified the car as a plug-in, like the Volt ?
Yes. One of the BEVx requirements is that the car's gas range be less than its electric range, so BMW artificially limited the usable tank size of the i3 REx to 1.9 gallons vs. the 2.4 gallons in the non-CARB version, in addition to preventing the REx from turning on before the SoC had decreased to 6.5%. Non-CARB versions can also turn the REx on at 75% SoC. If they'd wanted to certify the i3 REx as a PHEV like the Volt, BMW wouldn't have had to make either of those changes, but then they wouldn't have gotten the same credits as they would for a BEV, only credits appropriate to a PHEV, and that would have limited the sales of their more profitable ICEs. BEVx was a compliance play instigated by BMW, pure and simple.
 
On-topic (sort of) is Nissan's denouncement that it's cheapest ICEV will have no price increase, and a few more standard features:

Aug 16, 2017

Nissan announces U.S. pricing for 2018 Versa Sedan


NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Nissan today announced a starting U.S. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP)1 of $11,990 for the 2018 Versa Sedan – unchanged from the past two model years (Versa Sedan S with 5-speed manual transmission).

For the new model year, Versa Sedan adds standard adjustable front headrests, map lamps and variable intermittent wipers for all grades, along with one new exterior color – Deep Blue Pearl. The 2018 Nissan Versa Sedan is available now at Nissan dealers nationwide...
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-u-s-pricing-for-2018-versa-sedan

And I expect it's no problem to get any '18 Versa below list.

Competition in the moderately priced BEV market is just as brutal today.

I just don't see this headline for the Gen two intro:
Nissan announces LEAF upgrade for 2018- Bigger battery, Bigger Price
IMO, Nissan bringing out a LEAF with a list price higher than the current fully-loaded ~$40k maximum is unlikely.

So if it does have an available ~60 kWh optional pack, it may be quite a bargain.


And off-topic:

GRA said:
edatoakrun said:
Moderator:

Can you move the BEVx comments clogging this thread to another?

As my request of ~a week ago was not successful...
Agreed, these posts belong in either the Range-extended EV thread or the i3 thread.
When you want to discuss an off-topic subject, would you please just insert a SHORT note to that effect, and a link to the thread yourself, instead of posting off-topic numerous times, and then asking a moderator to clean up the mess?
 
LeftieBiker said:
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that climbing a steep hill doesn't drain the battery - it's doing it with any speed that does so. Which brings us back to BMWs climbing hills at 9mph. Since most people want to be able to drive up steep hills somewhat faster than that, I'm not sure what your point is here.
Power required at 70 mph on a level highway is about 20 kW. With a 10% incline (which is a lot BTW), power required jumps to 81 kW, or four times as much, to maintain the speed.
My comment was in response to SageBrush who claimed that the extra 61 kW needed for climbing will be subject to huge drivetrain losses. I fail to see that, because the speed has not changed, just the load. The battery and electronics will be subject to significantly higher losses, but not the drivetrain.
Folks with i3s have reported that they can travel at 70 mph on (level) highways using just the Rex - which is powerful enough for this task.
 
I think it's a matter of semantics. Most EV folks consider the electronic controller and battery pack to be part of the "drivetrain." If you mean strictly friction losses through the motor and other mechanical drive gear, then no, no big increase in mechanical loss. But the power needed still quadruples (triples if you slow down a bit) if you want to climb that hill...
 
Interleaf said:
SageBrush said:
Interleaf said:
Assume 10% grade, and travelling at 70 mph which on flat ground will require 20 kW. Lifting the EV at 2,000 kg up 1 meter requires 2000*9.8 = 19,600 Ws. The EV is climbing at the rate of 70 mph on 10% grade or 11,200 m/h or 3.11 m/s. Thus power required is 61 kW. 61+20-25 = 56 kW battery depletion rate.
The horizontal movement adds another 20 - 25 kW*
Total power for your example is 79 - 84 kW .
And that is before drivetrain and battery energy losses are factored in for the climb. Close to 90 kW total is ballpark.
Wrong - you need to subtract the 25 kW available from the Rex, to get at the battery depletion rate. Furthermore, the climb by itself does not result in significant drivetrain losses - it is the speed that results in losses, and that has already been accounted for.
I am not wrong, but there is some x-talk here.

I calculated total power requirements. If you want to separate out battery and ICE contributions, go ahead.

Second, I didn't say that drivetrain losses are "significant," I said they are extra. Or perhaps you think the motor is 100% efficient and the rotating parts friction free ?
 
OK!

By this announcement, it sounds to me like ProPILOT Assist is likely be available on the first Gen two deliveries in the USA.

Aug 17, 2017
Nissan readies next-generation LEAF for first public displays during 2017 National Drive Electric Week

NASHVILLE – Less than a week after its global debut, the next-generation Nissan LEAF begins making public appearances at National Drive Electric Week events across the U.S. Consumers in eight cities will get an up-close look at the second-generation LEAF. Nissan LEAF is the official sponsor of National Drive Electric Week for the third straight year.

"The timing couldn't be better. Bringing LEAF to some of the most enthusiastic EV advocates just days after its global debut is the perfect way to kick things off for this technology-packed car," said Brian Maragno, director, Nissan EV Marketing and Sales Strategy. "We can't wait to show off the all-new LEAF to electric vehicle owners and enthusiasts during National Drive Electric Week."

The next-generation Nissan LEAF will be on display in the following cities during National Drive Electric Week.

Sept. 9

Seattle, Washington | Denny Park | 9 a.m.-2 p.m.
San Diego, California | Qualcomm Stadium | 10 a.m.-3 p.m.
Alpharetta, Georgia | Avalon | 11 a.m.-4 p.m.

Sept. 14

Bridgewater, New Jersey | Bridgewater Municipal Building Car Park | 6 p.m.-9 p.m.

Sept. 16

Portland, Oregon | Washington Square | 10 a.m.-5 p.m.
Los Angeles, California | Los Angeles State Historic Park | 10 a.m.-3 p.m.
Cupertino, California | DeAnza College | 10 a.m.-4 p.m.
Cambridge, Massachusetts | Danehy Park | 11 a.m.-4 p.m.
Visit DriveElectricWeek.org/Events for additional details and locations.

Consumers visiting the Nissan display in each city will be greeted by a modern space, featuring the next-generation LEAF. Visitors will be able to explore the LEAF, equipped with Nissan Intelligent Mobility features including ProPILOT Assist™ and e-Pedal technology. On-site hosts will be available throughout the events to answer questions and provide a closer look at LEAF. Food, beverages and branded merchandise will also be available for visitors...

Current LEAF owners will be offered an exclusive chance to sign up for the "The All New LEAF Drive and Discover Experience," providing a behind-the-wheel opportunity to experience the next-generation LEAF just weeks after it is unveiled. To sign up, owners must present the key fob to their current LEAF and register for the test drive while visiting the display. The first test-drives will begin in October...
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-readies-next-generation-leaf-for-first-public-displays-during-2017-national-drive-electric-week
 
This looks to me like you have to visit one of the exhibits to be able to sign up for the October test drives! I live 4 hours from Cambridge, and about the same from New Jersey. This sucks.
 
GRA said:
As stated, that's exactly what they did, to allow them to get full credits for a BEV instead of partial credits for a PHEV, in a category they themselves had asked be established, ...
I think you have missed the point. The point is that it was CARB who dictated that a SEV or MSEV (minimal Rex Serial EV) is a bad idea and must not receive full credit. BMW was just reacting to the brainless rules of CARB, pushed by its incompetent and ideological sociology graduates, and was just optimizing given the constraint imposed by CARB. It is NOT BMW at fault. It is CARB at fault. If a city (like my city) converts every other road lane to bicycle-only, and then traffic jams become 5 times worse, can you blame the drivers for not driving on the bike lanes and causing traffic jams? In justice, you go to the source of the injustice and apportion blame. You do not blame the victim. BMW is just dancing to the rules of CARB.
CARB's opinion was that it might make BEVs more acceptable to some people who would otherwise be turned off by their short range and consequent range anxiety, so more would be sold and more miles would be driven electrically. It had just that effect, which as I mentioned is shown by the relative sales proportions of the i3 BEV vs.the REx.
It was just an opinion by CARB and a wrong opinion. It held back the adoption of BEVs because the i3 Rex has little functionality and prevents people from driving intelligently. The huge engine also made the thing unnecessarily expensive and difficult to maintain. So many times I had to suffer due to almost running out of charge with my Leaf, and having to cancel my plans. A minimalist genset, as little as 5 kW or even less that could be turned on at anytime and could charge the EV back to 100% if necessary (i.e. not this bizarre 'hold mode') would have ameliorated range anxiety. Are you not aware that the adoption of BEVs has been extremely anemic? Why do you think it is so anemic? (Range Anxiety)
Now that BEVs with equal or greater range than the REx are available for under $40k, the justification for such a design has faded away to nothing.
Certainly disagree with this. The Leaf2 is only 150 miles of range and that is insufficient. Even the T3.220 does not offer the confidence that on a freezing dark rainy day you will get to your destination that is only an hour and half away. A "backup power" (and not a range extender) will even be needed in a 310 mile range EV.
That some owners would want/need to use their cars in ways that limiting the REx to only come on when the SoC had fallen to 6.5% wouldn't allow was foreseeable, but was considered acceptable by CARB. I thought then and now that anyone willing to spend that kind of money for a PEV would be likely to drive the car to maximize the amount of electric driving they did, so the limitation wasn't needed, but given the amount of PHEV drivers who never use (if they even know) of 'hold' modes, that's not necessarily the case.
You would need to reprogram the Rex to arrive at the silly 'hold mode' which is only at 50% in N.A. and is not variable and does not allow re-charging. This hack is not sanctioned by BMW and may void the warranty. In today's nanny culture, no one will take this risk. Besides a 'hold mode' is the wrong idea to begin with. If you go in hold mode at 30%, you are stuck at 30%.
No, it can be driven for about an hour (maybe 1.5 hours in the current model), and then you have to stop and fill up.
Nope, a Rex driver will stop at the next gas station and fill up, rather than look for a charger, drive out of way, and wait for 1 to 4 hours for the i3 to charge up, everytime they drive 100 miles.
If BMW's intent was to discourage BEV adoption, I'd say they've failed. As to a REx, I personally have always thought that a straight PHEV was more generally salable and so it's proved, but the REx probably drives more miles (and a higher %) electrically, which was CARB's intent. That you attribute this to politics/ideology of someone at CARB is your opinion - the record of who did what and why is pretty clear, and available to the public.
Sorry, this makes no sense. First off, it is well known that BMW (and others) wishes not to cannibalize its existing line of luxury ICE, so they have little incentive to push EVs. A straight PHEV will cost 50% more than a MSEV (minimal genset serial EV) and offer nothing more, and be a lot more costly to maintain and fuel, and produce a lot more pollution. The MSEV concept has not even been tested yet, but you claim that a PHEV is superior to an MSEV? The i3 Rex is not an MSEV. Someone at CARB decided ideologically that the MSEV concept will generate too much pollution, due to their bigotry against range extenders which they had cut the clean air credit for. And due to their incompetence, they never attempted to investigate the MSEV concept, and when BMW offered them a 6.5% hold mode with a huge 35 HP genset, they grabbed it, knowing that it will discourage Rex purchase (and MSEVs in general).
CARB in their attempt to steer people away from ICE to EVs, decided unreasonably to kill the MSEV concept, and as a result killed the EV market. Why do you think EV adoption has been so anemic?
(I am happy to move this discussion to another thread - please advise.)
 
"The point is that it was CARB who dictated that a SEV or MSEV (minimal Rex Serial EV) is a bad idea and must not receive full credit."

Spin. The car is not a BEV. That should be obvious even to you.
 
SageBrush said:
"The point is that it was CARB who dictated that a SEV or MSEV (minimal Rex Serial EV) is a bad idea and must not receive full credit."
Spin. The car is not a BEV. That should be obvious even to you.
Lack's nuance. It is not written in the Bible that if an MSEV generates 5% of the exhaust of an ICE, then it should be disallowed. Regulating that a BEV is what the masses should get because of 0% exhaust and not an MSEV because of 5% exhaust is counter-scientific, puritanical, and a (non-theist) religious edict.

If 100 people get BEVs, then 100 ICE are eliminated. If 200 people get MSEVs, then 200 * (1-5%) = 190 ICE are eliminated. In my opinion, adoption of MSEVs would be double, triple, or quadruple the rate of BEVs in the past 6 years. But we will never know because of CARB's overzealous puritanical approach to this problem. Is it not that their mandate is to eliminate pollution? But they went for a perfectionist approach and were bigots when it came to considering an MSEV. Unfortunately, and I know something about this, all if not most government departments dealing with environmental regulations operate in the same ideological manner.

(rant on) If instead CARB had dictated that the clean air credit would be proportional to the amount of exhaust eliminated, then BMW would have discovered the happy medium of MSEV between a BEV and ICE, and there would be a lot more ICE eliminated today. But hey, CARB staffed with graduates in anthropology and women's studies from tuition-free universities wouldn't even know how to compute a 'proportional' credit. Perfection is the enemy of the good. The ideological is the enemy of the masses. (/rant off)

I have copied this last post to a new thread in "Non-Leaf Discussions" --> "Business / Economy and Politics". There does not seem to be a place better suited to discussing Range Extenders, as far as I can see. Please reply to the new thread.
 
You can click on the offending parties, then click 'add foe' in their profile, and future posts from them will be filtered out. I just added Interleaf. Shame.
 
LeftieBiker said:
You can click on the offending parties, then click 'add foe' in their profile, and future posts from them will be filtered out. I just added Interleaf. Shame.
Funny - I moved the Rex thread elsewhere, and you complain after I move it, and then filter my posts?
And further funny that you participated in the Rex subthread, without even bothering to move it to a new thread elsewhere.
Is it because you lefties cannot face the fact that CARB a government agency is responsible for destroying the EV market, with their hare-brained regulations?
 
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