LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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webb14leafs said:
scottf200 said:
webb14leafs said:
<snip>
Why doesn't the same argument hold for this ratio? Cooling technology?
You need to read up on the several factors. Start here but lot of places to read and learn:
http://teslapedia.org/model-s/tesla-driver/understanding-charging-rates/

Also related is how the pack is arranged. i.e. 120kW mentioned above. Info via:

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/400-kw-charging
georgehawley.fl.us | December 6, 2016
Haven't encountered a Supercharger operating over 120 kW yet.

The limits charging power that a battery pack can accept is the maximum amount of current the manufacturer is willing to tolerate in the individual cells and the way the cells are wired together for charging purposes.

Panasonic recommends 2 amperes maximum at 4.2 volts per cell for charging the 18650 cells used by Tesla. Tesla charges them with up to 4 amperes at 4.2 volts. In the 85 and 90 kWh packs Tesla has 96 strings of 74 cells in parallel. 74 X 4 amperes = 296 amperes maximum. 96 X 4.2 volts = 403.2 volts. 403.2 X 296 = 119.3. kW. [note the 120 kW mentioned above]

For a Supercharger to charge a 60 kWh pack, the SC regulates the voltage and current to suit the smaller batter pack configuration. Likewise a 145 kW-capable SC hooked up to a 90 kWh pack.

I think everyone is stuck in the present. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Tesla clearly plans on changing their battery technology to allow for faster charging, or else they wouldn't upgrade their existing charging stations. In the age of acceleration and with someone like Musk this change "could" happen as quickly as a year or two. The other manufacturers will eventually follow suit. If I bought a new Leaf in January, and by 2019 there were new ones that could charge in 20 minutes instead of 50, I would be annoyed.
You were asking about cooling so it did not appear you understood the biggest issue ... current battery chemistry and how it accepts a charge. Hope my details helped in that regard. Battery cooling and charger cable/connection cooling certainly are an issue but if they were the weak link then they would have been addressed quickly. There has been some efforts but not major ones. There are other more restrictive weak links to deal with first.
 
scottf200 said:
webb14leafs said:
scottf200 said:
You need to read up on the several factors. Start here but lot of places to read and learn:
http://teslapedia.org/model-s/tesla-driver/understanding-charging-rates/

Also related is how the pack is arranged. i.e. 120kW mentioned above. Info via:

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/400-kw-charging

I think everyone is stuck in the present. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Tesla clearly plans on changing their battery technology to allow for faster charging, or else they wouldn't upgrade their existing charging stations. In the age of acceleration and with someone like Musk this change "could" happen as quickly as a year or two. The other manufacturers will eventually follow suit. If I bought a new Leaf in January, and by 2019 there were new ones that could charge in 20 minutes instead of 50, I would be annoyed.
You were asking about cooling so it did not appear you understood the biggest issue ... current battery chemistry and how it accepts a charge. Hope my details helped in that regard. Battery cooling and charger cable/connection cooling certainly are an issue but if they were the weak link then they would have been addressed quickly. There has been some efforts but not major ones. There are other more restrictive weak links to deal with first.

Charging, hardly a major issue!

According to a report by Electrek, Porsche recently installed incredibly-fast 800-volt chargers at a new office in Berlin. The new chargers can, as the outlet claims, charge an electric vehicle at a rate of 150 kW, which, for the record, is faster than what Tesla’s Supercharger can muster – they have a charge rate of 120 kW. The real kicker, though, is that Porsche will be able to increase the charge rate to 350 kW in the near future.

https://rennlist.com/articles/porsche-prepares-future-installs-electric-car-chargers/

Or maybe with Tesla.
 
webb14leafs said:
I think everyone is stuck in the present. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Tesla clearly plans on changing their battery technology to allow for faster charging, or else they wouldn't upgrade their existing charging stations. In the age of acceleration and with someone like Musk this change "could" happen as quickly as a year or two. The other manufacturers will eventually follow suit. If I bought a new Leaf in January, and by 2019 there were new ones that could charge in 20 minutes instead of 50, I would be annoyed.
"If I bought a new **** in January, and by 2019 there were new ones that could *****, I would be annoyed."
Well, I'd predict you better prepare to be annoyed. ;)
 
NeilBlanchard said:
alozzy said:
The regen system of the Ioniq sounds, to me, like the best system currently available.

From what I understand, it has two steering wheel paddles - one that bumps up regen and the other that lessens regen. Also, there are 4 levels of regen to choose from including a coasting mode that basically disables regen completely.

Hope the new Leaf has similar functionality, even if the implimentation details are different.

Agreed - the e-Golf also does it this way. The difference is it has the different levels on the shifter, and doesn't have paddles.
OT. Neil, drove an e-Golf Sunday, and wasn't all that impressed with B mode decel on the flat. Is it stronger descending hills? I was thinking that I had to go into B and then click the lever to the left to increase regen even more, but reading some old reviews it seems that I should have left it in D to do that, as B is max regen (aka D3). What kind of display do you see to indicate when in D1 or 2? I liked the basic D mode, pure coasting great for freeways. And as expected, the car''s driving dynamics/controls are German rather than Japanese, and much preferred by me. I'd call accel adequate without being anything special ()-60 tests in the mid-9 second range - this was the 24 kWh pack, as the 2017s with the bigger pack haven't arrived, but they'll only be slightly better). Also had a look at an Ionic Hybrid (no BEVs available), and man, what a lousy rear view unless you're in reverse and using the camera, as it's like looking down a tunnel with the rear window divided by a horizontal bar. A reasonably nice car otherwise, F/R space seemed similar to the Golf, with maybe slightly better rear seat knee room. Didn't bother to drive it.
 
Dooglas said:
webb14leafs said:
I think everyone is stuck in the present. I'm simply pointing out the fact that Tesla clearly plans on changing their battery technology to allow for faster charging, or else they wouldn't upgrade their existing charging stations. In the age of acceleration and with someone like Musk this change "could" happen as quickly as a year or two. The other manufacturers will eventually follow suit. If I bought a new Leaf in January, and by 2019 there were new ones that could charge in 20 minutes instead of 50, I would be annoyed.
"If I bought a new **** in January, and by 2019 there were new ones that could *****, I would be annoyed."
Well, I'd predict you better prepare to be annoyed. ;)

Solid point, and with a respectable amount of snark.

I will argue, however, that this isn't an upgrade like bluetooth, or heated seats that will make you wish you held out an extra year to buy your car. This is something that significantly increases the overall utility of your vehicle. If anything, it's an argument for leasing over buying I guess.
 
I don't think the e-Golf has as much regen in B as the i3 or the Bolt EV in L; but then I don't like driving like that.

GRA, did you try the e-Golf in D for a while?

I think the more powerful motors in some EV's allows stronger regen.
 
webb14leafs said:
dgpcolorado said:
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.
While it would be nice to have that sort of charging rate on a small battery, with current battery technology 150 kW would damage a 40 kWh battery, even with a robust cooling system. Maybe someday with new battery chemistry, but not likely anytime soon IMO.

That is one of the advantages of the bigger batteries: they can be fast charged more quickly — think "miles of range per minute" — without damage. It isn't just about range, it is about DCFC speed to make the next leg of a road trip (or to charge enough to do the day's local driving, in the case of someone without access to home or workplace charging).

Tesla is supposedly upgrading it's supercharger network to a 300kW plus charging rate. There are several Teslas with 60kWhr batteries. Why doesn't the same argument hold for this ratio? Cooling technology?
The smaller battery cars just charge more slowly. My S60 will start briefly at 90 kW before dropping to ~77kW and then it tapers rapidly down from there. It takes twice as long to Supercharge, for a typical road trip leg, as the larger battery cars. The charge rate is limited by the car not the maximum available from the Supercharger.

If Tesla really does plan to introduce 300 kW Superchargers — I'm not aware of anything like that — I would guess that they will be for future larger battery cars or trucks. There aren't any 100 kWh cars with the current chemistry that could take advantage of that charge rate.
 
NeilBlanchard said:
I don't think the e-Golf has as much regen in B as the i3 or the Bolt EV in L; but then I don't like driving like that.

GRA, did you try the e-Golf in D for a while?

I think the more powerful motors in some EV's allows stronger regen.
Yes, switched back and forth between D and B. D felt like my 5-speed in 5th or even neutral. I notice that the bigger battery e-Golf also has a more powerful motor (134 hp vice 115, and 214 lb.-ft vs. 199), so maybe that will boost both accel and regen. Anyway, enough OT, and if a mod wants to move my question and Neil's answer over to the e-Golf topic, please do.
 
dgpcolorado said:
<snip>The smaller battery cars just charge more slowly. My S60 will start briefly at 90 kW before dropping to ~77kW and then it tapers rapidly down from there. It takes twice as long to Supercharge, for a typical road trip leg, as the larger battery cars. The charge rate is limited by the car not the maximum available from the Supercharger.

If Tesla really does plan to introduce 300 kW Superchargers — I'm not aware of anything like that — I would guess that they will be for future larger battery cars or trucks. There aren't any 100 kWh cars with the current chemistry that could take advantage of that charge rate.
Right, higher charge rates will either require higher voltage battery packs like Porsche will use for the Mission-e (allowing the same max. amps per cell, but also greater danger from HV), a really large battery bank, or else new non-lithium-ion chemistry (or maybe solid-state) batteries that can tolerate much higher charge rates. Toyota's been working on solid-state batteries for years for just that reason, and other companies have been pursuing other approaches. Lithium-ion is fast approaching its practical density limits, so going much beyond that will require a new tech. Higher charge rates will also require cheap storage, otherwise demand charges will make the electricity way too expensive.
 
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.

Well, you got it... Nissan already hinted at faster charging and 150 KW seems the likeliest and test mule shots implies a roughly 45ish kwh battery.... So not the 60 we all seem to want but more than enough to cover my needs. The reality is that there are chargers that will run faster out there and more coming (faster than you think)

My 2016 charges MUCH faster than my previous 24 kwh packs and its due to a change in the profile since a mere 6 kwh capacity bump comes nowhere near explaining the faster charging.

FYI; EVGO upgraded one of the chargers at Tacoma Mall. How high? Not sure since it ran at what is the likely max speed of the LEAF at 124 amps...
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
I had a 2012 SL for a full year before the first QCs started showing up here. Some people who opted out of the QC port were a little upset then.
Higher power QCs are definitely in the works so having a car that can use them will be advantageous when they arrive.
If only Nissan was as proactive as Tesla in that regard.

Well, we are talking about a company that chose to implement telematics via 2G :roll: .
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.

Well, you got it... Nissan already hinted at faster charging and 150 KW seems the likeliest and test mule shots implies a roughly 45ish kwh battery.... So not the 60 we all seem to want but more than enough to cover my needs. The reality is that there are chargers that will run faster out there and more coming (faster than you think)

My 2016 charges MUCH faster than my previous 24 kwh packs and its due to a change in the profile since a mere 6 kwh capacity bump comes nowhere near explaining the faster charging.

FYI; EVGO upgraded one of the chargers at Tacoma Mall. How high? Not sure since it ran at what is the likely max speed of the LEAF at 124 amps...

Are you referring to faster Level 2 charging?
 
Newporttom said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
webb14leafs said:
I would rather have a 40kWhr battery with a 150kW charging rate than a 60kW battery with a standard charging rate.

Well, you got it... Nissan already hinted at faster charging and 150 KW seems the likeliest and test mule shots implies a roughly 45ish kwh battery.... So not the 60 we all seem to want but more than enough to cover my needs. The reality is that there are chargers that will run faster out there and more coming (faster than you think)

My 2016 charges MUCH faster than my previous 24 kwh packs and its due to a change in the profile since a mere 6 kwh capacity bump comes nowhere near explaining the faster charging.

FYI; EVGO upgraded one of the chargers at Tacoma Mall. How high? Not sure since it ran at what is the likely max speed of the LEAF at 124 amps...

Are you referring to faster Level 2 charging?

no faster fast charging. I really don't need faster L2 charging since I only do that at home and have way more than enough time to charge my LEAF even at the lowly 24 amps that I am using now.
 
Today's Spy shots from Spain. I like the black roof, I think I would do some blackout treatment to the V-motion front grille.

next-gen-nissan-leaf-1.jpeg


next-gen-nissan-leaf-2.jpeg


next-gen-nissan-leaf-3.jpeg


next-gen-nissan-leaf-4.jpeg
 
OrientExpress said:
Today's Spy shots from Norway...

next-gen-nissan-leaf-2.jpeg

Thanks for the first views, sans-camo.

My first question is how low did it go?

Sure looks like gen 2 will lose some of it's ground clearance and to aero improvements.

Only important to the small minority of BEV divers (like myself) that do a lot of off-pavement driving and appreciate the high clearance of the Gen one LEAF.

Looks to have a huge cabin, and as to the looks...well, IMO, form follows function...
 
edatoakrun said:
OrientExpress said:
Today's Spy shots from Norway...

next-gen-nissan-leaf-2.jpeg

Thanks for the first views, sans-camo.

My first question is how low did it go?

Sure looks like gen 2 will lose some of it's ground clearance and to aero improvements.

Only important to the small minority of BEV divers (like myself) that do a lot of off-pavement driving and appreciate the high clearance of the Gen one LEAF.

Looks to have a huge cabin, and as to the looks...well, IMO, form follows function...

Good point! I wonder if the battery has been moved into the floor like the Teslas and the Bolt.
 
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