LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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If it's not a new design, it isn't 2.0. Just another version of the gen 1. I have every expectation it will be a complete redesign. That's not to say it won't have a resemblance in dimension, design, etc
 
NavyCuda said:
LeftieBiker said:
Also, he mentions that the new Leaf is a completely new design. There is no carryover from the current generation.

Frankly, I don't believe that, and actually hope it isn't true. If I decide to order a Leaf 2 without driving one, it will have to use the existing car as the basis for the redesign. If it really is all new, I'll probably lease a Bolt - which by then should be ironed out. Someone else can beta test the all-new Leaf.

Logic fail.

If you mean "the Bolt is also brand new" then note that I'll be leasing when the Bolt has been out for about 9 months, with lots of early Bolt buyers being used as beta testers, and things like software revisions and probably seat modifications having already been implemented by GM. If you mean something else that makes sense, please enlighten us.
 
When you accuse companies like Nissan and GM of beta-testing on their end-user you lose credibility with me. Even Tesla only really beta-tests their software with the end user.

While it's true new vehicles can have teething problems, vehicles at the end of their model life can be just as problematic as something new on the assembly line.

It must be pointed out that it is exceptionally rare for their to be a serious defect in the core design of a vehicle. The only one that comes to mind directly is the Pinto. Smaller parts flaws, well these things happen even with mature parts on a worn production line.

When I look at the history of GM electronics in their vehicles over the last thirty years, or that of Nissan, you'd have to come up with a much more compelling argument to make me risk buying a mature production GM over a virgin Leaf 2.
 
NavyCuda said:
"...It must be pointed out that it is exceptionally rare for their to be a serious defect in the core design of a vehicle. The only one that comes to mind directly is the Pinto."...

Chevrolet Vega
 
Ford Explorer.

Cuda, if you want to believe something, that's fine. Accusing me of failing to be logical because I disagree with you is a little different. If the Leaf 2 really is a completely new car (which I doubt) then the only known component will be a battery pack with no active cooling. I will NOT risk driving an early production version of such a car.

Volvo 164 (too few camshaft bearings when they extended the design of the B20 engine to six cylinders. They pretty much all developed bad cam bearings.)

Volvo 850. The first year or two of production vehicles had sealed transmissions which precluded changing the transmission fluid completely. With predictable results.

GM V-8 passenger car diesel (first version). Used gasoline engine components (including the engine block) that failed early under the extra stress.
 
NavyCuda said:
When you accuse companies like Nissan and GM of beta-testing on their end-user you lose credibility with me. Even Tesla only really beta-tests their software with the end user.
It seems like the both the front and falcon wing doors on the Model X are a beta-test on users, at best.

These contain just a tiny fraction of examples I've seen:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/so-sad-the-x-is-going-back-to-service-center.66455/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/crunch-falcon-wing-doors-fail-to-sense-obstacle.68268/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/major-model-x-fail-videos-and-pictures.85021/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/falcon-wing-door-sensor-reliability.88907/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/totally-non-responsice-fwd.67460/ (FWD = "falcon wing door"... sigh)
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/totally-non-responsice-fwd.67460/#post-1461204
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/driver-side-falcon-wing-door-hinge-snapping-when-opening.77686/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/falcon-wing-door-false-obstacle-detection.71789/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/fwd-door-senses-obstacle-when-nothings-there-solution-just-drive.62188/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/please-help-front-door-latch-just-failed-have-to-drive-400-miles-in-am-with-latch-warning-beeping.71137/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/post-initial-problems-with-the-model-x.59839/page-16
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/falcon-wing-scratching-and-scuffing-other-parts.71339/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/falcon-wing-scratching-and-scuffing-other-parts.71339/page-2#post-1602160 - this pic's great :)

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/post-initial-problems-with-the-model-x.59839/page-14#post-1471614 has pointers to more.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17305 has pointers to some automakers testing doors to 84,000 open/close cycles to simulate 10 years of customer use. I suspect the probability of a pass (no problems) if taking a random Model X off the line and subjecting each door 84K cycles in a variety of environmental conditions (e.g. sun out, cold, etc.) is not very high.
 
They are calling it "Leaf 2" rather than "Leaf 2.0" so it isn't at all clear from the name that it's all new. If those camouflaged cars are just test mules, it makes little sense, for a couple of reasons. First, why camouflage them? It would be better to just use whole Leaf 1 cars, which are inconspicuous. After all, you don't need to test drive a new nose and tail. The only reason I can think of is if the new motor and pack won't fit into the existing nose and tail, but that doesn't seem especially likely, either - the new nose doesn't seem appreciably larger than the old, and there is plenty of empty space in the tail of Leaf 1...

Finally, since Nissan is competing on price more than on performance, building a whole new car on the cheap, when the existing car's interior is well liked, also makes little sense. Putting a new nose, tail, and dash on the existing midsection does make a lot of sense. That would let Nissan keep building essentially the same body on the same production lines, with only a few new external pieces, and a few (but important) internal parts changing. That would give them a significant cost advantage.
 
LeftieBiker said:
They are calling it "Leaf 2" rather than "Leaf 2.0" so it isn't at all clear from the name that it's all new. If those camouflaged cars are just test mules, it makes little sense, for a couple of reasons. First, why camouflage them? It would be better to just use whole Leaf 1 cars, which are inconspicuous. After all, you don't need to test drive a new nose and tail. The only reason I can think of is if the new motor and pack won't fit into the existing nose and tail, but that doesn't seem especially likely, either - the new nose doesn't seem appreciably larger than the old, and there is plenty of empty space in the tail of Leaf 1...

Finally, since Nissan is competing on price more than on performance, building a whole new car on the cheap, when the existing car's interior is well liked, also makes little sense. Putting a new nose, tail, and dash on the existing midsection does make a lot of sense. That would let Nissan keep building essentially the same body on the same production lines, with only a few new external pieces, and a few (but important) internal parts changing. That would give them a significant cost advantage.
If it is Leaf 2 or 2.0, and it isn't nearly all new, it will be a huge disapointment and deceptive marketing. But you can keep dreaming that the next Leaf will be the old Leaf.
 
But you can keep dreaming that the next Leaf will be the old Leaf.

If you keep putting words in my mouth I'll just filter you. Life is short and trolls are legion. What I'm "dreaming" is that they will use the Leaf 1 passenger compartment and seats, with a much more powerful motor, a full 40kwh pack that is at least cooled when charging, and a nose with headlights that actually work well on both Low and High beams. I think that if Nissan actually builds a whole new Leaf as cheaply as they can, that it will have problems. Those problems will then be inexcusable, because there is no reason for them to build a whole new Leaf.
 
LeftieBiker said:
But you can keep dreaming that the next Leaf will be the old Leaf.

If you keep putting words in my mouth I'll just filter you. Life is short and trolls are legion. What I'm "dreaming" is that they will use the Leaf 1 passenger compartment and seats, with a much more powerful motor, a full 40kwh pack that is at least cooled when charging, and a nose with headlights that actually work well on both Low and High beams. I think that if Nissan actually builds a whole new Leaf as cheaply as they can, that it will have problems. Those problems will then be inexcusable, because there is no reason for them to build a whole new Leaf.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Please ignore me as well and exist inside of your own self deluded bubble.

There are plenty of reasons a whole new Leaf is needed, even if it shares parts and certain dimensions with the current Leaf.
 
Does anyone have any thoughts or have seen any information or statements from Nissan regarding efficiency and weight of the new Leaf. I recall Carlos in a presentation talking about the new Leaf and mentioning that it would be lighter and more efficient then the current model. I think it may have been during the annual Japanese shareholders meeting last year. Given that Hyundai have gotten a 136 mpg-e rating with a range of 124 miles from a relatively small battery pack, 28kWh, then what can we expect from Nissan? It's about a 16% improvement in efficiency.
If the all new Leaf is going to be both lighter and more efficient then what range could we infer (guess) would be close for the 41kWh battery pack - as used in the Zoe - and the all new designed 60kWh pack confirmed by a Nissan engineer 18 to 24 months ago (at a show in Canada I think? - correct me if I am wrong).

I'm guessing that range for 40kWh will be a little higher then what people are guessing in other pages/threads.
Same again for the 60kWh pack.

Thoughts anyone?
thanks in advance :)
 
We were wondering that as well. If they can gain 10 percent from efficiency and 25 percent from pack size that would put them solidly above the 300 km range on the European scale and probably north of 250 km on the North American scale which would be a good marketing point. I think the 40 ish variant would be a good fit for many customers. It would be for us, but then again our 30 KW is fine for us.
 
geefish said:
... I recall Carlos in a presentation talking about the new Leaf and mentioning that it would be lighter and more efficient then the current model...
Not to mention C. G. and others emphasis on reducing production costs, so LEAF 2 and N/R's other BEVS can beat ICEVs in the marketplace without government subsidies.

The LEAF 1 was an outstanding initial effort, as evidenced by how well the ~300k gen 1 LEAFs are still performing, and its continuing high worldwide sales rate to date.

It's unexpectedly long production life has given Nissan the luxury of time to make major improvements, and I expect LEAF 2 will probably be a significant advance from our BEVs.

Just how much more efficient, lighter, and less expensive than the LEAF 1, and how many new features it will have, will be announced in the next few months.

I'm impatiently driving my 2011 (over 6 years and over 52k miles on the O.E. battery pack, and covered 95.7 single-charge miles the day before yesterday, from "100%" to the VLBW.) and waiting for the LEAF 2 news before I decide what my next BEV will be.

Very interesting story below on how Nissan/Renault's culture of delegating authority, working cooperatively with partners and suppliers,
and benefiting from long experience in building cars (The Anti-Tesla approach) has revolutionized the entry-level ICEV.

We might be reading a similar story about the development of the gen 2 (or maybe the gen 3) LEAF/Zoe in the future...


True Disruptors Of The Auto Industry: 118-Year-Old Renault, A 71-Year-Old Man And A $4,100 Car

There has been a lot of talk about disrupting the auto industry. If you want to see disruption in full-scale beauty, you must go to Chennai, India. The city formerly known as Madras has become a veritable hotbed of automotive disruption, and not just because the mercury constantly flirts with the 100 degree mark. Some 30 dusty, and very nerve-rattling miles south of the airport is the Oragadam Industrial Corridor, and right in the middle of it is Renault and Nissan’s joint production site, which is trying to crank out the $4,100 Renault Kwid as quickly as it is snapped up, usually by first-time buyers, who finally can afford a real car.

Some 40 years ago, we finally could afford a real computer, 64K and all -- now a real car can be bought at a similar price.

For those who think the outrageous price is not low enough, the factory has just started to produce a $3,700 derivative, the Datsun Redi-GO. Both are real cars, on a brand-new platform, and they already disrupted the marketing plans of Maruti-Suzuki, which until now has dominated the rapidly growing Indian car market, but probably not for a lot longer. (The secret of how Renault-Nissan has achieved the cars’ ultra-low price is revealed here. But does Renault-Nissan make money with the cars? The answer is here.)...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2017/05/22/true-disruptors-of-the-auto-industry-a-118-year-old-carmaker-a-71-year-old-man-a-4100-car/#6d1e8b1d69b0
 
edatoakrun said:
True Disruptors Of The Auto Industry: 118-Year-Old Renault, A 71-Year-Old Man And A $4,100 Car

There has been a lot of talk about disrupting the auto industry. If you want to see disruption in full-scale beauty, you must go to Chennai, ....
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2017/05/22/true-disruptors-of-the-auto-industry-a-118-year-old-carmaker-a-71-year-old-man-a-4100-car/#6d1e8b1d69b0

I follow Bertel on Twitter. He is a full blown Anti-Tesla reporter (so has gotten into fights with me). One thing he doesn't mention about $4,100 car is that it got zero stars in crash testing.
 
evnow said:
edatoakrun said:
True Disruptors Of The Auto Industry: 118-Year-Old Renault, A 71-Year-Old Man And A $4,100 Car

There has been a lot of talk about disrupting the auto industry. If you want to see disruption in full-scale beauty, you must go to Chennai, ....
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2017/05/22/true-disruptors-of-the-auto-industry-a-118-year-old-carmaker-a-71-year-old-man-a-4100-car/#6d1e8b1d69b0

I follow Bertel on Twitter....

One thing he doesn't mention about $4,100 car is that it got zero stars in crash testing.
Well then you probably already know how convincingly Schmitt has demonstrated that when you are on a road in India, you definitely want to be in one of those zero star cars, rather than subject to the mass slaughter suffered by pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorcyclists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6wh-MEOiEM

https://twitter.com/BertelSchmitt

Back on-topic.

I'll be happy if Nissan uses batteries manufactured in India in future BEVs, so long as they aren't highly flammable, like the ones Tesla uses in all its BEVs...

Govt eyes India-made Li-ion batteries to lower cost of electric vehicles

NEW DELHI: The government is contemplating incentivising manufacturers to set up facilities for making lithium-ion batteries in India to lower the cost of electric vehicles...

Secretary in the Department of Heavy Industry Girish Shankar said since the lithium-ion battery is not manufactured in India and the automobile industry has to depend on imports.

"We need to develop indigenous production capabilities for lithium-ion batteries so that electric vehicles can become affordable," Shankar said...
http://www.newindianexpress.com/business/2017/may/25/govt-eyes-india-made-li-ion-batteries-to-lower-cost-of-electric-vehicles-1608993.html
 
Nissan in advanced talks over selling part (all?) of AESC battery unit?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-26/china-s-gsr-said-to-near-1-billion-deal-for-nissan-battery-unit

What does this mean for Leaf 2.0? No change? LG batteries?
 
jhm614 said:
Nissan in advanced talks over selling part (all?) of AESC battery unit?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-26/china-s-gsr-said-to-near-1-billion-deal-for-nissan-battery-unit

What does this mean for Leaf 2.0? No change? LG batteries?
Nissan has been saying for years now that it plans sell its stake in AESC, as it sees the future of BEV batteries as a low-margin commodity business, and it will make no more sense to make its own than to make its own tires, glass, etc.

It is still possible that Nissan will buy some non-AESC batteries for the LEAF 2 (for an optional higher capacity, high density pack?) but if that's happening for the MY 2018 I think we should expect to hear about it very soon.

Since any outside battery supplier doesn't have the same incentives to keep quiet about the LEAF 2 that Nissan has...
 
My hopes for the new Leaf are that is have better back seat legroom / comfort, and I hope they make a big improvement in the Cd (coefficient of drag). It already is evident they have made the headlights look better.
 
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