LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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DNAinaGoodWay said:
So, LEAF Gen 2, I'd expect to be ready to roll, at the same time or shortly after Bolt's debut. Hope so. eNV200 too. Yet all media rumors suggest 2018. Smokescreen?

The most persistent rumor (backed up by at least one web article) is that the 2017 Leaf will be unchanged except for a 40kwh pack with a 140 mile range. Leaf 2 is still expected in 2018. If prices are low on the 40kwh Leaf in the Spring, I may buy one - if I haven't switched to a Bolt by then.
 
The October issue of Automobile magazine says Nissan isn't going to surrender to GM and Tesla. They are predicting a gen 2 Leaf on sale mid-2017 with 220 plus miles of range from a 60 KWH battery powered by a 220 HP, 265 lb-ft motor. Things are getting interesting.
 
Not in the same space as a Tesla but an option to a Bolt. The Model 3 will be a much nicer looking car with much better performance at the base model. I expect the LEAF to be a redesigned Nissan econobox with that looks like a Honda Fit or other uninteresting Japanese car unless they got a last minute design change kick in the rear but that's just not likely. I did hear the carpeting will be two coats this year instead of one and they added two more voice commands to the Navigation.
 
LKK said:
The October issue of Automobile magazine says Nissan isn't going to surrender to GM and Tesla. They are predicting a gen 2 Leaf on sale mid-2017 with 220 plus miles of range from a 60 KWH battery powered by a 220 HP, 265 lb-ft motor. Things are getting interesting.

GCR concurs: Plug-in electric car sales for August: Volt sells at twice Leaf rate - Green Car Reports
https://apple.news/ArkYVaiUHO0ql8OryswDlpQ
(About half way down the article)
 
2018 models can be sold as early as January 1, 2017. I still expect Leaf 2 to arrive spring of 2017, probably as a 2018 model year. Whether the 2017 appears in the interim with a 40kWh battery is almost inconsequential. The 2017 will likely be a short run.

Jay Cole of insideEvs predicted a while ago that Nissan would skip 2017 altogether and go from an extended 2016 run straight to an early 2018 model.
 
blimpy said:
I hate to say anything that makes sense, while you guys are busy arguing but...
The simple, low cost way to reduce temperature induced battery degradation in the Leaf Pack is

A-I-R--C-O-O-L-I-N-G. Introducing forced air cooling is the obvious way to get rid of waste heat.
This added greatly to the simplicity and reliability of the VW. Each aluminum skinned "cell" has a large amount of surface area, painting these black improves thermal conductivity even more.

Ram air cooling can provide much if not all of the required flow at speed, and a squirrel cage blower can do it at low speed.

Liquid cooling, with a1000 O-rings ( as in the Volt Battery) is a long term nightmare .
Look at some YouTube videos of the two battery types disassembled... and you wont want to own a volt or tesla
battery .

KISS Prinicple. Nobody talks about the admirable Leaf progressive refinement program which is so similar to what made the VW bug so successful, and so much improved over its many decades of production. Maintaining optimal battery temps also has some minor range implications.. but the longevity issue, especially in hot climes and under quick charge regimes make adding aircooling the obvious elephant in the room

air cooling is an option but has drawbacks. air must circulate between the cells which means longer interconnects, larger pack. and likely 2-4 fans. 2 blowing in, 2 sucking out to get even air flow across the cells PER section. remember, the LEAF pack is 3 sections put together.

IOW; what seems simple enough does have its challenges. now I don't know what it takes to design airflow but guessing its not as easy as we want it to be.

I worked at Ford when the Focus EV was first conceived and spent some free time (of which there was a TON of) one day going thru the maintenance CBTs and saw the complexity of that cooling system. it was monstrous.

3 cooling systems (one for cabin but could also be partially directed to the pack if needed) 2 heating systems. I wondered then why so much but then again, who am I to argue with a team of top engineers.

add to all that; most engineering designs start out perfect, robust and fool proof, then marketing gets a hold of it and then we get the pruned down results. Its kinda scary to think what we have now is a lesser form than what engineering wanted...
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
...I worked at Ford when the Focus EV was first conceived and spent some free time (of which there was a TON of) one day going thru the maintenance CBTs and saw the complexity of that cooling system. it was monstrous...
And apparently ineffective, despite the huge energy consumption (and expected high maintenance and repair costs) required by the ATM.

AVTA test results (to date) show the four Focus Es in their Phoenix test fleet with ATM used ~20% more Wh/mile than the four LEAFs, while having negligible benefits in reducing capacity loss.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/bev

It appears ATM and insulated pack designs were only an economically viable option for those BEVS requiring very expensive batteries when used in a small subset of all climates.

Other than for manufacturer's using flammable cells that need ATM for safety reasons (Tesla) I doubt many manufactures of future BEVs will try to use insulation and refrigeration to slow pack degradation.

Unless some clever engineers figures out how to actively insulate a battery pack, allowing passive rejection of heat during most conditions, while allowing the pack to still benefit from insulation in very low ambient temperatures, as well (perhaps) if exposed to extremely high ambient temperatures, such as those which occur in the Summer in Phoenix.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Other than for manufacturer's using flammable cells that need ATM for safety reasons (Tesla) I doubt many manufactures of future BEVs will try to use insulation and refrigeration to slow pack degradation.
Agree! In an EV, It's all about maximizing net energy to the wheels, dictated by the performance characteristics of the battery. For example; The Leaf's first gen battery is about 140 Wh/Kgin with a usable 21Kws and it's EPA range is about 70 miles. Using 20% of the available power to condition the battery environment pulls the range down by about 14 miles. Using battery power for the heater is enough of an overhead. I'm sure that's why Nissan chose not to expend the energy on the first MY.
 
As reported in summary of BEV developments to be introduced ~tomorrow, the Gen 2 LEAF is still ~ a year away?

Electric car tipping point may challenge pioneers

..In Paris, Renault will unveil a longer-range Zoe "LR", with an upgraded 40 kWh LG battery that can power it almost as far as its larger GM rival, company and industry sources told Reuters. The new version will go on sale almost immediately.

But affiliate Nissan, which builds its own batteries in a venture with NEC (6701.T), will not be in a position to follow suit for another year, the sources said - leaving its flagship Leaf outgunned by the Bolt in the interim...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-paris-electric-idUSKCN11X2D1?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FbusinessNews+%28Business+News%29
 
edatoakrun said:
As reported in summary of BEV developments to be introduced ~tomorrow, the Gen 2 LEAF is still ~ a year away?

Electric car tipping point may challenge pioneers

..In Paris, Renault will unveil a longer-range Zoe "LR", with an upgraded 40 kWh LG battery that can power it almost as far as its larger GM rival, company and industry sources told Reuters. The new version will go on sale almost immediately.

But affiliate Nissan, which builds its own batteries in a venture with NEC (6701.T), will not be in a position to follow suit for another year, the sources said - leaving its flagship Leaf outgunned by the Bolt in the interim...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-paris-electric-idUSKCN11X2D1?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FbusinessNews+%28Business+News%29

Funny that they point out Renault is using LG Chem batteries and the (current) Leaf is using NEC batteries. But then they assume that the Leaf will have to wait until NEC catches up with LG Chem? I seem to recall Ghosn stating that if NEC cannot keep up with its competitors, Nissan is open to moving on for the next-gen Leaf.

I would not count out LG Chem batteries for the next Leaf, regardless of what Reuters says. Not unless I hear it from Nissan.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
I seem to recall Ghosn stating that if NEC cannot keep up with its competitors, Nissan is open to moving on for the next-gen Leaf.
It still seems to me that many missed the video of the US battery factory where they showed
the roll of electrodes being unloaded from Japan to eventually go to the cutting machines.
Nissan can get their electrodes from anywhere, Japan, South Korea, Timbuktu, they don't make them.
In the case of LG Chem they would also need the separator. I keep seeing reports where
the reporter seems to think the electrodes, and batteries are both manufactured at the same place.
 
LKK said:
The October issue of Automobile magazine says Nissan isn't going to surrender to GM and Tesla. They are predicting a gen 2 Leaf on sale mid-2017 with 220 plus miles of range from a 60 KWH battery powered by a 220 HP, 265 lb-ft motor. Things are getting interesting.
Will be interesting..
Waiting to see see what my next car will be next year..
I want a car that can take me to work and back on a charge.
That's 120 miles.
I don't see a 40 or 41 kwh pack doing that..
My 22 pack in my 2012 Leaf is finally just under the 1 way trip range when traffic is going 65.
60 would probably do it..
But the Bolt also would...

It will be an interesting year to wait and see.. ;-)

desiv
 
edatoakrun said:
AVTA test results (to date) show the four Focus Es in their Phoenix test fleet with ATM used ~20% more Wh/mile than the four LEAFs, while having negligible benefits in reducing capacity loss.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/bev

It appears ATM and insulated pack designs were only an economically viable option for those BEVS requiring very expensive batteries when used in a small subset of all climates.
Careful about comparing apples and orange here.

LEAF and FFE have different battery chemistry. A proper test would be to have identical cells in a fleet of cars divided between ATM and passively cooled.
 
Maybe the Gen 2 LEAF will only get a facelift, rather than a clean sheet redesign, if you believe the report below:

Nissan discontinues 24 kWh battery in the USA

...With the 24 kWh battery out of production, the upcoming facelifted 2017 Nissan Leaf with a 30 kWh battery in the lowest trim and 41 kWh for the highest is set to be unveiled next month at the Los Angeles Auto Show...
http://pushevs.com/2016/10/11/nissan-discontinues-24-kwh-battery-usa/

Original report of Nissan ending ~24 kWh pack LEAF sales in USA:
Nissan Leaf S quietly gets 30-kwh battery upgrade, higher price
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106593_nissan-leaf-s-quietly-gets-30-kwh-battery-upgrade-higher-price

off-topic: reply

WetEV said:
edatoakrun said:
AVTA test results (to date) show the four Focus Es in their Phoenix test fleet with ATM used ~20% more Wh/mile than the four LEAFs, while having negligible benefits in reducing capacity loss.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/bev

It appears ATM and insulated pack designs were only an economically viable option for those BEVS requiring very expensive batteries when used in a small subset of all climates.
Careful about comparing apples and orange here.

LEAF and FFE have different battery chemistry. A proper test would be to have identical cells in a fleet of cars divided between ATM and passively cooled.
Which is impossible of course, as no manufacturer currently offers battery refrigeration (with or without pack insulation) as an option.
 
30 Kwh S trim is here now so not much of a rumor. I am glad to hear about the 41 kwh LEAF but not happy with the source. There is a lot of stuff that happens across either ocean that never makes it here
 
looks like only 30kWh batteries for 2017 model
https://electrek.co/2016/11/10/nissan-2017-leaf-trim-details-30-kwh-battery-range/
 
Nice price cut on the S trim! but have to think a battery pack increase is just around the corner. Plan on MSRP being nothing but a sales tool.

Getting ready to pop on a S trim on what is essentially a "50% off" sale...
 
There are about 250,000 2011-2015 Leafs that have been left high and dry with no battery upgrade path; Is Nissan offering the 41 kWh pack to their older model Leaf customers?
 
fotajoye said:
There are about 250,000 2011-2015 Leafs that have been left high and dry with no battery upgrade path; Is Nissan offering the 41 kWh pack to their older model Leaf customers?

What an entitled post. There is no obligation to offer anything for previous model years beyond the federally mandated parts support.
 
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