AltCar Expo: Santa Monica, CA - 9/28 to 9/29/12

Anyone going to http://www.altcarexpo.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Lots of cars to test drive and see at http://www.altcarexpo.com/exhibitor_vehicles.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I'm contemplating making the trek down there (>300 miles for me, one way). How were the test drives at the 2011 event? Were they on a closed course or out on the open road?

Did they at least have some stretches were you could punch it or test their handling, a bit?

If I go, I may need some help w/bidding on Priceline for hotels. (I attended UCLA but never had much of a reason to stay in hotels down there. In that part of LA, I've only ever stayed at the UCLA Guest House and the former Holiday Inn on Church Lane (round hotel) near the 405 and UCLA (now http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g32655-d84522-Reviews-Hotel_Angeleno-Los_Angeles_California.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

It seems that many/most (all?) Santa Monica hotels at http://biddingfortravel.yuku.com/topic/5121/LOS-ANGELES-HOTEL-LIST" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; have very pricey parking. I'd prefer it be free or minimal cost. I'm not sure about some of the other zones. I definitely don't want to stay too far away (traffic sucks) or stay in a bad area (e.g. downtown LA, Hollywood, Inglewood, etc.)

is a map of the zones.

I'll probably go on the Friday. Test drives are a short block around the Civic Center parking lot (Pico/Main/Olympic/4th). Some vendors can be persuaded to let you add a half-block and take the vehicle up to Colorado, but that's as much as you'll get. No real opportunity to drive hard due to short distances involved before you need to make turns and the volume of traffic in the area.

I see. I'll have to get a look at Google Street view as I don't remember that area well at all. Never had a reason to even know where the SM Civic Auditorium was.

If I went, I was going to plan to attend both days, since I'm coming from so far away.

I'm considering going on the Friday also, I attended the last two years, though I've already driven about everything they'll have to test drive. I agree with mwalsh, rides are very short and often slow, but sometimes you can hold back a bit so that you can punch it for 50 yards or so to test both accel and braking. You can, however, get a feel for fit and finish, interior space, some of the instrumentation, quiet and/or noise isolation, etc. Definitely drive the Honda Fit EV in Sport mode.

FWIW, I think that two days might be too much, there's not all that much to do unless you're gonna attend many of the talks. That said, there's lots to do in Santa Monica and Venice, even if it's just people watching near the beach or at 3rd Street.

Thanks. I figured two days because I'm afraid there might be long waits for test drives. I counted ~27 cars available for test drives. I don't think I've ever been to a driving event where in a single day, I even test drove 20 cars.

There are a few I don't care much about test driving (e.g. the propane gas cargo van, Dodge CNG truck) but there are quite a few I'd like to try. I think the wait for the Rav4 EV might be long.

Yeah, in college, I used to go to 3rd Street Promenade sometimes on weekends w/friends. On a Friday night/weekend, my thoughts were "wow. This seems to be where everyone goes. No wonder the dorms are so dead on Friday and Saturday nights."

Won't the 405 be closed to the north that weekend for construction?

Yep, could be lines for some of the more popular cars. Friday will be much more manageable, if prior years' experience is representative. I'd scope out the supply of test cars at each stand and plan for the "must do" drives and rarer cars on Friday and leave the more abundant testers until Saturday.

And start early each day before the crowds show up.

Kataphn said:

Won't the 405 be closed to the north that weekend for construction?

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Oh joy!

That's right, last night I stumbled across some articles about "Carmageddon II". (I haven't lived in LA since 97.)

Kataphn said:

Won't the 405 be closed to the north that weekend for construction?

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Thanks, Kat. I see that ramps will start to close as early as 7 pm on Friday and lanes by 10 pm.

If I go, I'll make sure that I'm southbound in the afternoon and out of the area in time for any major impacts.

If you are planning on going, try to make it on Sat. I sent off a letter to Susan Carpenter who is moderationg a discussion panel at 1:15 and asked her to bring up the issue about the battery degradation issues. See attached:

Ms. Carpenter,
Senior feature writer
Los Angeles Times
202 W. 1st St.
Los Angeles, CA 90012
213.237.6310 (office)
213.308.5603 (cell)
Follow me on Twitter @LATcarpenter

I was wondering if you could bring up an issue to Mr. David Peterson, West Coast Project Manager Corporate Planning, Nissan North America, Inc., during the Annual Altcar Tech debate session as I now see he is slated to be a panelist.

If you are not aware of the issue, that of a premature loss of battery capacity in hot climate areas, you may want to check out the two links included below(one the wiki link to battery issues and the other to MNL.com 11 bars, not included for this post). Many of us believe the issue is under reported, mostly by lack of knowledge by owners realizing that they have a loss and under addressed by Nissan in admitting they have a problem that needs to be dealt with. As you will see, if you decide to wade through the mountains of posts, there are real people with serious range issues resulting in cars that are no longer viable transportation. Coupled with that is the value issue, as I was recently quoted a trade in price of “about $14,000” from a Nissan dealer for a 1 year old, 10,000 mile, $35,000 dollar sticker price new car. Not since I owned a new MG in the late 70’s, have I seen such depreciation.

As stated in my letter, the Nissan Leaf is a wonderful car for us and we have no intention of selling it but, to advance the technology and ensure electric vehicles remain a viable future source of transportation, something the Alt Car Expo uses as a mission statement, this issue needs to be answered and quickly. If not, I fear this may be another example of a 70’s car, remember the Bricklin?

Thank you for any consideration,
to which she responded:
I will certainly bring that up!

I will not be able to go this year and it will be interresting to see when she brings it up what the answer is. The answer from Nissan may be formulaic but, the more it is brought up in a public debate, the less they will be able to hide from it. I also gave her the link to the Phoenix test. Not sure if she followed it but was hoping there would be some data to present at the forum.

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Anyone else going?

I won a bid on Priceline (meaning, I've paid no matter what) at the Crowne Plaza in Redondo Beach. Even though I was bidding for 2.5* hotels in all sorts of zones and using many permutations, nobody was biting. Then, I suddenly won it at $69 and was "upgraded" to a 3.5*. $69 was a bit more than I was hoping for.

Driving down Thursday afternoon... debating whether to meet w/over a dozen So Cal Priuschatters for dim sum in Irvine on Sunday.

Nobody else going besides myself, mwalsh and Boomer23?

It'd be cool to meet other MNLers there.

cwerdna said:

Nobody else going besides myself, mwalsh and Boomer23?

It'd be cool to meet other MNLers there.

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91040 is going to be there too. Or so Boomer23 tells me. I guess we'll be getting there around 10am on Friday.

I plan to be there around 10am as well. tbleakne may be coming but has not confirmed yet.

See y'all tomorrow.

I should be there both days.

I'm an Asian guy w/glasses, short hair, late 30s, about 5'7", wearing jeans and a dark baseball cap.

I'll be wearing a white Coco's Cat Rescue t-shirt, green shorts, brown sandals, and a Coda ball cap. And I'll be with Boomer23, if that helps.

I'm working Friday and Saturday is Carmageddon II, so I won't be able to make it this time...

On the qt, there is an AV DC Quick Charge available during the event. It is located just inside the driveway entrance on Pico.

Many L2s in the parking lot and parking structure.

A few observations on this year's Alt Car Expo.

It was fun to meet cwerdna, visiting from the Bay Area, and fun to visit with mwalsh, 91040 and tbleakne, as always. We had a chance to chat with Dave Peterson (spelling?) (nice young guy from Nissan product planning who's on a panel Saturday), and Tim Gallagher, Nissan's west coast PR guy.

Cars available to drive (in no particular order):
I drove the ones marked (*)

Nissan LEAF (about 4 ea)
Mercedes F-Cell Fuel Cell (about 3 ea)
Toyota RAV 4 EV (about 4 ea) (*)
Toyota Prius hybrid, Toyota Prius V hybrid, Toyota Prius Plug-In hybrid, Toyota Prius C hybrid (I didn't count the numbers)
Coda (about 3 ea)
Honda Fit EV (one only) (*)
Honda Clarity Fuel Cell (one only)
Ford Focus EV (one only)
Ford C-Max Hybrid (one only) (*)
Mitsubishi iMiev (about 3 ea)
Chevy Volt (about 4 ea) (*)
Fiat 500 (ICE, one only) (*)
Dodge Dart (ICE 6 speed manual, one only) (*)
Dodge truck, I don't know which one, I don't know anything about trucks, what do I look like, a cowboy???
Kia Optima Hybrid (one only) (*)
Kia Forte (ICE, one only)
Kia Fuel Cell SUV prototype (one only)
I probably left out a few, especially ICE cars and trucks and a fuel cell SUV or two. I apologize for that.

You'll have to sign a global drive event release at the entrance to the ride-and-drive area, plus a separate one for GM cars at the adjacent table. RAV 4, Ford and Kia, and possibly Nissan, also required additional sign-offs at their tables.

The stand-out EV at the drive event was.................. The Toyota RAV 4 EV. It had the longest lines to test drive, so get there early on Saturday and go to the RAV 4 line first. It was beautifully finished inside and out, well equipped, had great visibility, very promising driving range of over 100 miles (it should, with a pack size over 40 kWh), and it really hauls the mail, especially in Sport mode. I squealed the tires twice without really trying. I detected some creep from rest, but it was pretty slight creep (mwalsh disagreed, he thought that there wasn't any creep.). Brakes felt capable and strong. Regen didn't feel particularly strong (tbleakne agreed, and he put the car in B mode). Instruments are clear and visible but tbleakne commented that he found the regen power display too dim to see easily.

If I wanted an SUV sized EV, and if the range boost over a LEAF made much difference to me, I'd be all over a lease on the RAV. It's also the cheapest and fastest way to get your hands on Tesla technology. Downside is that there is no QC capability, but the standard onboard charger is 10 kW, three times faster than the LEAF's.

Second place on my list goes to the Honda Fit EV. I've already reported at length on this great little EV, but it stands as the best value in a sporty, fun to drive EV with a highly efficient drive train and air cooled battery pack (confirmed that it is only outside air circulating, not cooled air), and highly regarded Toshiba SCiB batteries. Smaller inside than a LEAF. but a nice little package. Limited to some Calif regions and Portland OR at this time. Coming to some North East cities next year.

I still like the Volt, but I found the brakes weak and a bit soft on the one I drove today.

Ford C-Max hybrid is roomy inside and a nicely appointed package, but I found the hybrid drivetrain slow and noisy, similar to a Prius. They had a prototype C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid parked on the lot, but not available for drives or static examination. I have the Energi on my list to look at next year as a Prius replacement.

I've always admired the styling on this generation of Kia Optima, and the hybrid gives up nothing in terms of styling, both inside and out. Well appointed and powerful to drive, with pretty decent MPG numbers.

GM has the most comfortable exhibit, with free wifi, seating and mini-paninis and small lemonade and iced tea shots.

Best "swag" at the show is a tie between the RAV 4 and the Dodge booth. For test driving the RAV, you get a little solar cell phone charger with an array of plugs and wires. At the Dodge booth, you get a set of "Ram" leather and canvas work gloves. Nissan gets honorable mention with a dizzying array of water bottles, water cups, and T shirts, while the nicest water bottle styling honors go to Ford and Toyota (I was told you have to drive some kind of toy cars to get one).

Static displays inside the exhibit hall include the BMW ActiveE and the upcoming Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid, which is open and available to crawl around inside.

If you're intrigued by electric-assist bicycles, there is a group in the rear of the exhibit hall that has several different brands and types of these available to test ride (indoors). I'm impressed by the pedal assist on these things and I plan to check into them further.

There's charging available in the parking lot at Alt Car, but all five or six EVSEs were claimed by 10 am Friday when we arrived. We were able to charge at nearby Santa Monica Place mall, where there are four Chargepoints and a Clipper Creek, and there are a few down at the Pier. As 91040 mentioned, there is an AV Quick Charger and about three AV level 2 EVSEs on the grounds, but they are inside the ride-and-drive perimeter and would be hard to get to without special permission. I assume that they are really there to charge the ride-and-drive cars.

Food available for purchase in the exhibit building was a very nice looking Vegan menu. If you're a carnivore, consider the nice little Oaxacan place right across Pico.

Great write up!