Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:17 am

Valdemar wrote:Do you know if any 2013+ 24kWh battery can be installed in a 11/12 Leaf with a dealer reprogramming (with the necessary adapters) or only the ones that were originally fitted into 11/12 cars as warranty replacements? Which was it in your case?

Ah, good question.
Till date I have only installed a complete battery that was made for a 2011/2012 into those Leafs, even when manufactured in 2017, the batteries for old style Leafs have a different control connector and also still appear to have 4 physical temp sensors, whereas newer Leafs only have (and expect) 3 temp sensors. So, even though it would be trivial to simulate the 4th temp sensor in software, the new battery pack for old Leafs is still equipped with the correct nrof temp sensors.
I heard from others (have not tested it myself) that if the temp sensors are not present, the BMS will not balance the pack, so I made sure
to install the temp sensors.
BTW, I checked the new BMS (with colored connectors) and no matter if it its intended for new or old pack, it still has all 4 temp sensor inputs present, apparently the change for new packs is simply not to wire the 4th sensor and the software to ignore the missing reading, but the software for the new BMS that goes into the old Leaf is expecting 4 temp sensors.
So, I am expecting that you can't take a new pack intended for a new Leaf and mount it in an old one, even if you found a way to hack up the control cable to fit into the new socket from the old style plug on the old Leaf, the missing temp sensor is likely going to upset the Leaf, although I have no tried it, it might work but throw error code(s). Just like I was successful in letting the dealer program a 4-button FOB for my 2012 even though the car expects a 3-button one. But I have a permanent error code stored about this "incompatible" remote. I just had only this remote handy and I like to have 2 keys to every car I own (I bought a blank physical key and had it cut, so it is complete)
The safest way to use a 2013+ battery in a 2011/12 Leaf is to swap modules.
BTW, if you think of changing the control connector on a battery, please note that the connector can only be installed from *inside* the battery, even though you can unbolt the alu flange that the connector is installed into, from the outside of the shell, the high voltage pins from the power connector and the "connector inserted" detection cable cannot be disconnected from outside the shell. And the shell is glued shut.
I still want to get my hands on a 30kWh battery and verify that modules from that battery can swap into an older Leaf, I see no reason why that would not work, but have not verified it yet.

Valdemar
Posts: 2417
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:01 pm

Thanks, that's what I suspected. 2013+ batteries made for 11/12 cars are probably hard to find but should provide for a real easy swap (hopefully wreckers don't find this out and price them at a premium, hehe).
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

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drees
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:59 pm

Cor wrote:The safest way to use a 2013+ battery in a 2011/12 Leaf is to swap modules.

How many of these swaps have you done now? How much does a used 2013+ pack cost these days? I suspect the biggest issue is trying to figure out how much capacity a used pack has - what do you do to account for that?

Thanks for all the info - it's very interesting!
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:29 pm

drees wrote:How many of these swaps have you done now? How much does a used 2013+ pack cost these days? I suspect the biggest issue is trying to figure out how much capacity a used pack has - what do you do to account for that?

Hi Drees,
When I receive a pack, I used LeafSpy to read the info from the BMS (LBC) about capacity and health of the pack.
If the pack is still in the car then it is simple - just plug the dongle into the OBD2 connector.
When testing a pack by itself, I use clip on leads or header plugs to connect CAN and 12V to pack and ELM327 so
I can use LeafSpy in BMS only mode to read the data from the LBC.
Prices are still going up, due to demand, so now a 2013 pack can cost $2900 before taxes.
And you need to arrange a truck to pick up the 600 lbs battery at the dismantler, or do what I did on my first pickup
now over a year ago, I tore the battery apart in the parking lot of the dismantler, as I came with my Prius.
They were cool about that but not every dismantler appreciates that.
I have now worked on over a dozen batteries.

Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:05 pm

Got a call today from the dismantler that a few more packs are available, so if anyone is interested...

NiallDarwin
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:58 am
Delivery Date: 12 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 004321
Location: New Zealand

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:00 pm

Hi Cor, that's really interesting to hear that your Nissan dealer will do the coding now. That makes battery changes much safer as well as easier. You said that the owner needs to be present but other than that are the dealers cool about it or do you have one "tame" outlet that you go to?

Like you I'm on the hunt for a 30kWh pack to try in my 2011 but I've been distracted by fighting Tesla for panelshop info to be able to repair a salvage Model S that I gambled on. They are not especially easy to deal with...

estomax
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:34 am

very interested in the results you get if you find a 30kwh battery to swap into a worn out leaf. Good luck and hope it is a relatively painless process!

Marko
2013 Leaf SL Premium
27k, 93% SoH, 2/17
32k, 96% SoH, 6/17
37k, 92% SoH, 9/17

Dooglas
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:42 pm

estomax wrote:very interested in the results you get if you find a 30kwh battery to swap into a worn out leaf. Good luck and hope it is a relatively painless process!

My understanding is that it would be a relatively futile process. Nissan has said that the electronics of the 24kwh vehicles are not compatible with the 30kwh battery. (I realize Cor has suggested he may know how to do so, but there is plenty of incentive to do that with no reports of success)
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

camasleaf
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:03 pm

Dooglas wrote:I realize Cor has suggested he may know how to do so, but there is plenty of incentive to do that with no reports of success


I believe the incentive to do a swap to a 40kWh will overcome all obstacles.

I might be simpler to let the 2011/2012 BMS control a "fake battery" and have the 40kWh with is own BMS. I just took a look at the schematic and the 2011/2012 BMS could be tricked to believe it has a battery using 96 resistors, a controlled voltage 300 to 400 VDC low power source and low voltage 0-200 A current source. Keep the temp sensors on the real battery if the temperature profiles match.

A smart/fast device controlling the voltage and current seen by the 2011/20112 BMS could interface with the 40kWh BMS. I will have to give it some more thought, but it might be easier than to hack the BMS.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 76000 miles 71%SOH 15.7kWh
2015 SV 09/02/14, Over 36000 miles soon to be returned for a 2018
5.7kW DC System

rmay635703
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:26 am

Cor normally takes raw cells from for example a 30kwhr battery and reshells it into the old battery with the existing electronics.

So the car wouldn't know the difference and since the min max voltage on 30kw batteries is the same the car will just think it has lots of capacity past low battery

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