Enphase field MTBF: M190: ~36 Years M215: ~316 Years M250: >357 Years
- Thread starter RegGuheert
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RegGuheert
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I got a tracking number from Enphase for the replacement inverter indicating it should arrive next Monday (July 28). Interestingly, this one is shipping from Milpitas. I am relatively sure that the previous one (in early 2012) was shipped from HQ up in Petaluma.RegGuheert said:I guess I'm wondering if an RMA request triggers this firmware update *first* and if things "work", then they deny the RMA. Time will tell.ecoobsessive said:Almost three weeks after "we'll send those inverters right out" I still have not received them. "Time to contact Enphase for me, too
You may want to log into your Envoy locally and look at the inventory. For me, the good M190s have this firmware:
520-00008-r01-v01.04.04
The two "failed" inverters which are currently producing have this:
520-00008-r01-v01.08.00
Thanks! One more question: I've looked at the data for your array and it appears that you chose PV panels which do not ever cause the microinverters to limit at their full output power level. In fact, the highest ever average output I could find from the microinverters in your array was about 155W each. Perhaps they are connected to 190W or 200W PV panels, then? If so, perhaps the thermal cycling stresses are lower in your inverters, which could explain the fact that you have no failures on one of the oldest M190 arrays around.drees said:
(Hopefully I won't jinx you by talking about this! I wrote this post in a whisper in hopes your M190s won't hear it! :lol: )
I'd bet that it's getting drop-shipped directly from Flextronics, the company Enphase outsources all their manufacturing to - they have a manufacturing facility there.RegGuheert said:
Yes, I'm using 180W ET-M572 panels. The highest 5 minute power production was around 180W, but that doesn't happen often and usually happens on a mostly clear, cool day between May-June after cumulus clouds pass by.RegGuheert said:
In hindsight I should have gone with the largest panels possible (220-235W at the time) as it makes expanding easier given my 100A service panel - I went with the ET-M572 as I got a great deal on them around $2.20/W with Sharp panels costing around $3.00/W the system was ~$2,000 cheaper with the ET panels.
But with the M190 I am limited to 20 inverters (so can only add 2 more due to the NEC 20% rule - can backfeed 20A worth of inverters into the 100A panel). With 180W panels, that's only 3600W DC. But with 235W panels I could get up to 4700W DC without upgrading the panel - another 1000W DC would generate about an additional 1500 kWh/year here.
Hah! I'm not personally worried all that much about it as I'm already about half-way to break-even on the system. If I start seeing any significant failure rates I'll probably take the time to upgrade a string of the inverters to M215-IG or M250 inverters and install some bigger panels.RegGuheert said:
wwhitney
Well-known member
One option is to change your main breaker to 90A to allow 30A of solar back feed into the 100A paneldrees said:
Cheers, Wayne
RegGuheert
Well-known member
With the 2011 LEAF, you can replace the 40A breaker for the EVSE with a 20A breaker. I'm not sure how much that buys you, though. Of course, that workaround is only good until you try to charge a different EV with a higher-power OBC. (That is, unless you can also program the EVSE to limit its output to 16A.)drees said:
The new inverter arrived yesterday, just as expected. I installed it this morning. It took about an hour and a half and all seems to be working properly. I will try to make some comparisons of the electricity production versus the previous microinverter once I have some data.RegGuheert said:
I will note that this new inverter is, at this moment, producing the same power as the M190 with the "limp-along" firmware, while the other "high producers" in the array are producing about 6 percent more. Previously, both of these positions had been among the highest producers. I had kind of expected the differences in output power were related to the PV module they were attached to, but perhaps not.
Firmware Versions:
Interestingly, the new microinverter I just received has the same firmware version as the old (properly functioning) M190s:
520-00008-r01-v01.04.04
It indicates it was programmed with this firmware on Fri Dec 20, 2013 07:25 PM EST, so it is not like they recently programmed it to match our system.
Serial Numbers:
The new microinverter has a higher serial number than even the new M215s in our system:
New M190: 12142400XXXX
Old M190s: 12104541XXXX
Old replacement M190 installed January 2012: 12114403XXXX
New M215s: 12140201XXXX
Controller Part Numbers:
The controller part number of the new microinverter is also the same as all the other M190s:
480-00002-r01-v00.0b.12
Assembly Version Numbers:
Note that only the new M190 and the M215s report an actual assembly version:
New M190: 880-72412-r16
Old M190s: fff-fffff-rff-vff.ff.ff
New M215s: 880-00056-r06
The new microinverter visually looks identical to the old ones, including the Amphenol connectors. Only the new serial number and the reporting of this assembly version make me think it is from a new batch rather than old stock.
I wonder if/when the M190 microinverters in our system will be updated to the version that drees has installed in his.drees said:
Any word on your replacements, yet?ecoobsessive said:Almost three weeks after "we'll send those inverters right out" I still have not received them. "Time to contact Enphase for me, too
RegGuheert
Well-known member
FWIW, I just noticed that the microinverter that was just replaced is the same inverter which recorded the highest temperature ever in this array. Note that 149F is the same as 65C, which is the upper limit for this inverter. In other words, it was not operated out of its specified range.RegGuheert said:You can see my array in the link in my signature, including photographs.
The hottest inverter is under a panel in the top row of the garage, third from the right. Here is the data again from the week containing the hottest day last year: July 6, 2012:
(The new Enlighten website refuses to put Y-axis information on their graphs for anything other than power. But by poking around, I have figured out that the scale for temperature in Fahrenheit is one-half that shown for Power Produced (W). In other words, if you see 250 on the scale, you read the temperature curve as 125F.)
RegGuheert
Well-known member
O.K. I have also bolded the second inverter in this list. I just happened to look at the event log today and I noticed that more than one inverter was showing the "GridGone" event which is indicative of the "limp-along" firmware that I had previously received for one of the inverters which was malfunctioning. So I looked at the inventory and discovered that inverter 121045415714 had received this firmware update on August 2, 2014 without any communication between Enphase and me.RegGuheert said:
I looked to see if I could spot any anomalous behavior from this inverter prior to this update (other than the higher-than-average energy production which prompted this prediction) and I did not see anything. As such, it appears that Enphase may now have an automated system which watches system messages for certain symptoms and proactively sends this firmware update at the first sign of trouble. (Just a guess!)
In any case, the signature of somewhat-higher-than-average energy harvest compared with neighboring units seems to be fairly indicative so far. I predicted that four specific inverters (10% of the array at that time) would be next to fail and one of those has been replaced with one other receiving "limp-along" firmware from Enphase without my knowledge. Both of these happened within one month of the prediction.
So the tally for our M190s to date stands at:
- 2 inverters replaced under warranty
- 2 inverters now operating under "limp-along" firmware, but production is fairly consistent with the neighboring units
The new M215IGs are all working fine at this point.
Weatherman
Well-known member
I have six out of my thirty, m190 micros doing the "grid gone" thing and dropping power back on a routine basis. Enphase refuses to replace any of them.
They did, however, offer a replacement on a micro which dropped to zero power on a "DC Power Too Low" event. That one will be replaced on Thursday, this week. This will be the second micro replacement under that panel location. The first one lasted from June 2012 to October 2013. The second one lasted from October 2013 to early this month. I've had three others replaced, in different panel locations, so this will be replacement number five in a little over two years.
I don't know if it's just the weather (more clouds this year than the past two) or whether the new software (version 7 and 8) is holding output back, but I've been running consistently low on output for the entire array this summer.
They did, however, offer a replacement on a micro which dropped to zero power on a "DC Power Too Low" event. That one will be replaced on Thursday, this week. This will be the second micro replacement under that panel location. The first one lasted from June 2012 to October 2013. The second one lasted from October 2013 to early this month. I've had three others replaced, in different panel locations, so this will be replacement number five in a little over two years.
I don't know if it's just the weather (more clouds this year than the past two) or whether the new software (version 7 and 8) is holding output back, but I've been running consistently low on output for the entire array this summer.
ecoobsessive
Well-known member
The replacements from Enphase arrived a couple of weeks ago and I was finally able to get them replaced last week. Turns out I actually had the 380s, not 190s. From re-reading this thread I see that the 380s are even more problematic than the 190s, and that those installed in mid 2011 had the most problems. Guess when was my original installation: June 2011! They sent 190s to replace the 380s. Then I had 2 more go out (only produce for a few hours in the morning) so the new installer put in a ticket for that. And I have several more that go out - down to zero -for a few minutes every day. My new installer is going to see if Enphase will go ahead and allow all of my 380s to be replaced with 190s since I'm approaching 30% failure for the entire system. Interesting thing is that the 2 that were only producing for a few morning hours recently started to work all day again, then went back to very low production, and then are normal again today. I haven't been able to check software/firmware updates but I may try to look into that when I have time. Other problem is that my original installer had gone out of business so I had to find a new installer, also the original installer did not map the inverters correctly on the map so my new guy had to spend a lot of time looking for the serial numbers and then fixing the map.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
Glad to hear you finally got them replaced! I think this explains why they agreed to send out replacements so quickly: The D380s were pretty bad. (Well, that and the Texas accent!ecoobsessive said:
) I guess they want them all out of the field. In fact, Enphase paid to have a crew replace ALL of one customer's D380s with M215s. That may have been discussed upthread.BTW, I updated the spreadsheet to reflect SIX microinverters failed, since the D380s are duals. The assumption is that they sent you SIX M190s to replace the three failed D380s. Please let me know if this is not correct.
Since the D380s are duals, I have you at 8 out of 24 failed, or 33%. Your system's MTBF is now down to about 10 years.ecoobsessive said:
There is no excuse for that kind of sloppiness. I'm glad your new installer is cleaning things up.ecoobsessive said:
RegGuheert
Well-known member
I have two of those right now and they seem to be holding their own versus their neighbors. I'm on board with this since it reduces the number of replacements I need to do. Some of the inverters will be quite difficult to replace.Weatherman said:
Interestingly, I have a microinverter that has been "dead" since last Thursday, August 28, with a "DC Power Too Low" event. Enlighten shows no production from that inverter since about 1:50PM that day. What is interesting is that this inverter is easily visible from the driveway and I can see a blinking green light, which means it is producing power and communicating with the Envoy. What is also interesting is that I *think* this is the inverter which I disconnected briefly on June 29 in order to determine the polarity of the PV panels for my field project. (I know the date since I forgot to turn that portion of the array back on all that day!Weatherman said:
) I wonder if that had any bearing on this problem. I'm going to disconnect and reconnect that one this evening just to see if that changes anything.I will also point out that that this is NOT one of the four inverters which I recently guessed would soon fail. It tends to harvest about the same amount of energy as its neighbors do.
This failure brings the MTBF for our system down to about 51 years.
O.K. I've updated the spreadsheet to show 5 replacements and the note says 6 on "limp-along" firmware.Weatherman said:
MTBF for your system is now down to about 13 years.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
Enphase uploaded the "limp-along" version of the firmware to the newly-failed inverter yesterday evening and it is reporting "Grid Gone" events today, but it also still gives "DC Power Too Low" events and has not produced over 20W all day. As such, I expect Enphase will RMA this one, too. Fortunately, this should be one of the easiest inverters to replace in the entire array.RegGuheert said:
I was wrong about this. I had disconnected the inverter NEXT TO the one which just failed. (I can tell because when I disconnect an inverter with the MC4 tool that I have, I inevitably break the thin plastic on the Amphenol connectors that came on the M190s. I'm glad that Enphase decided to go with true-blue Multi-Contact MC4s on the M215IGs that I recently installed. I have sometimes wondered if the selection of non-standard MC4 connectors might be leading to some of the M190 failures.)RegGuheert said:What is also interesting is that I *think* this is the inverter which I disconnected briefly on June 29 in order to determine the polarity of the PV panels for my field project. (I know the date since I forgot to turn that portion of the array back on all that day!
I did that on Monday morning, but it did not make any difference, so I emailed Enphase at that time.RegGuheert said:
Edit: In parallel with me writing this post, Enphase sent me an email saying they would send out a replacement inverter.
Weatherman
Well-known member
Opened up a new case with Enphase for another m190 death. If the RMA clears, this will be replacement number six. This is not one of the ones affected by the grid gone power drops. This is a new one that just died (power drop to zero with no recovery).
This is gotten so routine that I just call Enphase and say, "another one of my m190s has died". Not even worth expressing my disappointment anymore. Another one has died so just send me a replacement. I'm sure I'll be calling you again, at least once, before the end of the year to ask for replacement number seven.
This is gotten so routine that I just call Enphase and say, "another one of my m190s has died". Not even worth expressing my disappointment anymore. Another one has died so just send me a replacement. I'm sure I'll be calling you again, at least once, before the end of the year to ask for replacement number seven.
I have a 11 year old and 7 year old string inverter, neither has any problems. If they do fail, I don't have to have someone go up on my roof, to do the repair and then hire a roofer, to fit the damage they did to my roof.
If they do fail, I don't have to have someone go up on my roof, to do the repair and then hire a roofer, to fit the damage they did to my roof.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
That's good! DesertDenizen also reports very good results with his SunnyBoy string inverters:pchilds said:I have a 11 year old and 7 year old string inverter, neither has any problems.
Unfortunately, some of the M190s appear to have a failure mode which is greatly foreshortening their lives. I doubt it is a bad component. I suspect it is an improper design of a solder pad which is causing a failure after a certain number of cycles.DesertDenizen said:
I'm not yet at the middle of the bell curve for the failures on my roof and it is already starting to get annoying. Weatherman seems to be getting close to the peak of the bell curve of failures and it's clear he is beyond annoyed at this point. And his M190 installation is not the worst one I have documented, by far.
What is unfortunate is that Weatherman and a couple of others have had multiple failures under a single PV panel. What this tells me is that Enphase may not have fixed the problem which plagued the original M190s in the ones they are currently sending out as replacements, at least not at the time Weatherman received his.
So far the M215s have not shown any sign of the problems that are plaguing the M190s. Let's hope that continues.
I need to find a way to get Enphase to replace my failed units with M215s so that I am not replacing them with units which will suffer the same fate several more times within the warranty period.
So far I have not damaged the roof to the point of needing a repair while replacing a microinverter. That task is *much* easier on the roof than installing the array the first time around.pchilds said:If they do fail, I don't have to have someone go up on my roof, to do the repair and then hire a roofer, to fit the damage they did to my roof.
AndyH
Well-known member
Ding ding ding! I'm loving my Outback as well. :lol:pchilds said:I have a 11 year old and 7 year old string inverter, neither has any problems.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
I just got the shipping confirmation for the latest replacement M190 that Enphase sent out to me. Interestingly, it appears from this document that Enphase may have redesigned the M190 to include similar electronics to their latest-generation M215IG and M250IG microinverters, except with M190-compatible packaging. Here is what I see:RegGuheert said:
From the previous replacement microinverter shipping confirmation that was shipped on July 21, 2014:
From the latest replacement microinverter shipping confirmation:
This is a very good sign, as it might mean that the replacement M190s may now be using the same design as the new M215IGs that come with a 25-year warranty. If that is the case, while I may still have to replace each and every M190 as they fail, it is possible that they will be replaced by units that have a real 25-year life and possibly a much higher MTBF, as was stated on the original M190 datasheet ("MTBF of 331 Years").
Hopefully this new unit will come with installation instructions. I know that when I installed the M215IGs recently, I had to attach ground to the wiring that goes to the microinverters. I suspect I will have to do the same thing with the new M190IG that is coming. In any case, it is an easy change.
I should be receiving the new microinverter next week and I will update this thread based on what I find when I open the package.
Weatherman
Well-known member
Yep.
The last two m190s I received as replacements were a slightly different model that all the others I have installed.
M190240-M190IG-R
M190 240V to M190-IG RMA kit
Maybe the different model will be more reliable. I hope so. As I noted in some of my earlier posts, I had one of my original m190s replaced with the same model of m190 and the replacement died in only ten months.
The last two m190s I received as replacements were a slightly different model that all the others I have installed.
M190240-M190IG-R
M190 240V to M190-IG RMA kit
Maybe the different model will be more reliable. I hope so. As I noted in some of my earlier posts, I had one of my original m190s replaced with the same model of m190 and the replacement died in only ten months.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
O.K. Thanks for the confirmation!Weatherman said:
So now I'm left wondering about any changes in the installation. My original inclination was that the change would be easy:
But then I remembered something that I hadn't considered: The old M190s only have three wires in their attached cables: L1, L2 and N. The fourth wire and pin is vacant for the single-phase versions of the inverters. But the pigtail used to wire the string into the junction box includes that extra pin that would be required for bringing ground into the units. So the question I have is whether or not the new inverter has *only* the integrated ground and not the grounding lug which was found on the old units. If that is the case, then I will need to do two things to ground the new inverter:RegGuheert said:
1) Ground the pigtail in the junction box.
and
2) Move the new M190IG to the end of the string closest to the junction box so that ground can come in through the connector.
I may do those two things even if there is a ground lug as a belt-and-suspenders type of approach. In that case, I can simply add new inverters into the junction box end of each string as they are replaced.
Hopefully Enphase will provide an information sheet explaining all of this, as I have been unable to find a datasheet for the M190IG anywhere online. I will know more on Wednesday when I receive the new inverter.
To date the failures have been spaced far enough apart that I have been doing individual replacements. If it gets to the point where a group of them fail at once (or close together), then I plan to replace entire strings of the most difficult-to-access panels at the same time to try to minimize overall labor. For the string this panel is on, I can do all the work without ever going onto the roof.
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