JTim
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:56 am
Delivery Date: 16 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 1024

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:42 am

Like many other 30 kWh battery owners, I received the letter saying the battery controller (LBC) was not displaying properly.

This is a record of my car just before the software upgrade (which took about 40 minutes):

GIDS 242 (67.8%), AHr 57.893, SOH 72.84, HX 70.98, L1/L2 365, QC 16

and after

GIDS ?? AHr 70.459, SOH 88.65, HX 71.07 (all 12 bars returned!)

I forgot the GIDs, will look tomorrow. So what do I think? It was great to see all 12 battery capacity bars returned. But looking below at the first capacity bar going away, I don't think I'm too far from that happening again.

Prior history is copy/pasted below.

J.Tim


JTim wrote:
JTim wrote:
JTim wrote:
First battery capacity bar gone, 3/17/17
Cross-posted to: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606

Manufacture date from inside car door is 10/15 *NOT* 2016 as I originally posted

ODO 6,084
AHr=64.97
SOH=81%
Hx=79.63
10 QC / 139 L1/L2

Charging habits: mostly from 20% to 80%, a few to 100%, from memory, 2 QCs in 97-degree temperatures, one or three times car sat more than 4 hours at 100% charge in the heat, and maybe twice (from memory) at 95% charge more than 12 hours (in a garage -- those times I misjudged thinking it would be a busy day, so fully charged ran short errands, car got to 95% at about 3pm, then sat that way until the next morning).


2nd bar lost [10 Battery Capacity Bars Remaining]

11/2/17
ODO 10,367
Ah=54.54 (climbed to 58.25 after driving)
SOH=73%
GIDs=257
HX=72.99
14 QCs, 276 L1/L2 [10 Capacity Bars]

-J.Tim


Added my car to:

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... acity_Loss
JTim
Fort Worth, TX
Man. Date: 12/15
Delivered 12-16-2015
Glacier White, 2016 SV, 30 kwh

dedwards
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:54 am
Delivery Date: 08 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 304425

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:44 pm

Today was the first day I was able to test my power added after the software update.
Drove to work today trying to bring the car as low as I could and hooked it up to the ChargePoint charger.

13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery. I did not have time to gather the latest LeafSpy data.

By my calculations, this means about .28631 kwh per percent used. This would mean an available capacity of 28.631 kwh. My understanding is that the car holds a small reserve charge of a couple kwh beyound 0% available power.

Looks pretty close to where it should be considering the miles on the car.

I would love information on how to best test the battery capacity.

Valdemar
Posts: 2500
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:45 pm

I'm having a deja vu, Nissan blamed instrumentation error when the original pack issues became obvious, we all know how it ended.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
53.92AHr, SOH 84.5%, 140k miles

9kW Solar

jbuntz
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:35 pm

dedwards wrote:Today was the first day I was able to test my power added after the software update.
Drove to work today trying to bring the car as low as I could and hooked it up to the ChargePoint charger.

13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery. I did not have time to gather the latest LeafSpy data.

By my calculations, this means about .28631 kwh per percent used. This would mean an available capacity of 28.631 kwh. My understanding is that the car holds a small reserve charge of a couple kwh beyound 0% available power.

Looks pretty close to where it should be considering the miles on the car.

I would love information on how to best test the battery capacity.

Part of the thing that makes the calculations difficult is you have to consider the efficiency of all the parts. The chargepoint is probably close to 99.9% since it only connects the power to the charger in the car. The charger is more like 85% since it has to convert the AC to DC and up the voltage to 400V.
One study said it takes 32kWh to fill a new battery to 28.5kWh. So 13% = 3.7 kWh + 24.9 added = 28.6 28.6/32 = 89% capacity?

I don’t trust anything on the dash these days so I am going to run it down to turtle and then charge it up and see how close it is to 32. Or 28.5 on a QC charger.
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

SageBrush
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:50 pm

dedwards wrote:13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery.

About 12.5% charging losses, so 24.909*0.875 = 21.79 kWh into battery.
If 13% SoC remaining is correct then your full battery capacity is 21.79/0.87 = 25.05 kWh

I gather that a new 30 kWh battery in the LEAF has about 28 kWh usable, so your battery has ~ 25/28 = 89% of new capacity.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:57 pm

JTim wrote:So what do I think?

Wait for the reset effect to fade.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:06 pm

jbuntz wrote:...One study said it takes 32kWh to fill a new battery to 28.5kWh...

I believe that the EPA certification only states is that it took 31.7807 to recharge the pack from stop, using L2.

Which is consistent with a ~30 kWh total pack, with ~90% (~27 kWh) available, and discharge/recharge efficiency of ~85%.

jbuntz wrote:...I am going to run it down to turtle and then charge it up and see how close it is to 32. Or 28.5 on a QC charger.

It is useless to use a DC charger, since we don't know the efficiency or the actual "100%" charge level when DC charging.

And I'd suggest you try to complete the entire initial charge/discharge/recharge cycle using 240 V L2 within a reasonably constant pack temperature range, between 70 F and 90 F, if possible.

From p 56, in more detail:

edatoakrun wrote:
jbuntz wrote:Currently my stats are 50.44 Ah 63.46 SOH 60.59 Hx 21622 Odo 230Gid 4 bars down. Appmt for Tuesday to get tested for replacement.

I did a test yesterday drove 77 miles to 6 GIDs. 70 miles were at 70 mph and the rest at less than 30. LeafSpy reported 17660 Wh used .5kWh remains...

You're on the right track, but first thing, throw out all the LBC ("LeafSpy reported") data.

jbuntz wrote:I then charged to 100%. EVSE total input was 25 kWh. Input was at 6737 Watts...
At 90% charger efficiency that would add about 22.5 kWh...

But It is unlikely your discharge/recharge efficiency was anywhere near 90%.

Nissan's EPA submission for your pack reports:

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 671&flag=1

Which is consistent with a ~30 kWh total pack, with 90% (27 kWh) available, and discharge/recharge efficiency of 85%.

jbuntz wrote:I also noticed that the car displayed 3.5 mi/kWh avg...

First, use mapping software to find your odometer error in your CW/NC miles driven reports to correct the mi in 3.5 mi/kWh.

Then, use your expected discharge/recharge efficiency to correct the kWh used error, as reported by CW/NC in 3.5 mi/kWh.

If your 30 "kWh" LEAF has the same error in kWH use reported on the Dash/NaV screen and CW/NC as do 2011 LEAFs, then you could calculate capacity loss from this consistent error, without having to do full discharge/charge tests.

My 2011's LBC currently reports ~36% capacity loss, but the kWh use report error is close to a consistent 12%, meaning each nominal kWH reported on my dash/nav screen and CW/NC, actually contains ~1,120 WH, and my available pack capacity is now ~24 % below spec.

However, the 3.5 mi/kWh. you report (you're sure that was for the entire 77 miles, and only those miles? From the from dash or Nav screen?) suggests the kWh used, as reported by CW/NC was about 22 kWh (77/3.5) ~88% of the 25 kWh accepted on the recharge, close to the expected expected discharge/recharge efficiency and not nearly the ~20% error (see below) that seems to be shown by your 25 kWh recharge report.

jbuntz wrote:So what do you think the true capacity is and what are they going to tell me Tuesday?

I have no idea what Nissan will tell you, but since your pack apparently accepted almost 79% of its specified capacity (25/31.7807) after a less-than-complete discharge, I think with further observation you would probably find that your pack still has between 75% and 85% of its specified capacity, as opposed to the ~63% your LBC is reporting.

The big variable you did not mention is battery temperatures during the previous charge, the discharge, and the recharge. The warmer the pack, the higher the available capacity, and also the higher the efficiency of the charge and discharge cycles.

Unfortunately (and unlike for the "24 kWh" packs) we have virtually no temperature data reported for the "30 kWH" packs.
no condition is permanent

SageBrush
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:48 pm

jbuntz wrote:Part of the thing that makes the calculations difficult is you have to consider the efficiency of all the parts.

More to the point, you have to take into account the test result variation. E.g.,
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... 12Leaf.pdf

Ed's attempts to sell an "accurate" method to calculate battery capacity whilst quoting inaccurate charging efficiency is funny.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:24 am

jbuntz wrote:
dedwards wrote:Today was the first day I was able to test my power added after the software update.
Drove to work today trying to bring the car as low as I could and hooked it up to the ChargePoint charger.

13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery. I did not have time to gather the latest LeafSpy data.

By my calculations, this means about .28631 kwh per percent used. This would mean an available capacity of 28.631 kwh. My understanding is that the car holds a small reserve charge of a couple kwh beyound 0% available power.

Looks pretty close to where it should be considering the miles on the car.

I would love information on how to best test the battery capacity.

Part of the thing that makes the calculations difficult is you have to consider the efficiency of all the parts. The chargepoint is probably close to 99.9% since it only connects the power to the charger in the car. The charger is more like 85% since it has to convert the AC to DC and up the voltage to 400V.
One study said it takes 32kWh to fill a new battery to 28.5kWh. So 13% = 3.7 kWh + 24.9 added = 28.6 28.6/32 = 89% capacity?

I don’t trust anything on the dash these days so I am going to run it down to turtle and then charge it up and see how close it is to 32. Or 28.5 on a QC charger.


You assumed that the ChargePoint used was NOT a QC, i.e. no DC directly to the battery with no losses, except internal battery resistance
losses, right? Was that really the case?
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

SageBrush
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:44 pm

lorenfb wrote:You assumed that the ChargePoint used was NOT a QC, i.e. no DC directly to the battery with no losses, except internal battery resistance
losses, right? Was that really the case?

He said Chargepoint at work.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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