EAGERBEAVER
Member
This vehicle has been sold.
2012 LEAF SL FOR SALE
- Thread starter EAGERBEAVER
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Edmunds pricing is totally out of whack! For my 2013SL Premium it lists retail of 29K and a trade in of 26K. KBB shows a trade in of 17K. That is what I was offered on a RAV4 EV lease. Needless to say, I am still a Leaf driver. There is no Southern California resale market.
A year ago I got 16.5K for my 2012SL with 5900 miles as a trade on my current Leaf. That was book price at the time.
A year ago I got 16.5K for my 2012SL with 5900 miles as a trade on my current Leaf. That was book price at the time.
Are you sure that the pre-2013 Leafs actually do better in crash tests...?
JeremyW
Well-known member
Would be nice (if you have an android phone) to run LeafSpy and get Amp-Hour/state of health readings. I imagine you probably haven't lost your first bar yet (but are probably within a few % of losing it).
EAGERBEAVER
Member
Responding to JeremyW's Reply
I am sorry that KBB caused Jeremy to trade in his 2012 Leaf SL at such a low price. As my report, "Financial and Health Benefits of Driving Electric" demonstrates, Leaf ownership is financially superior to Prius ownership. Edmund.com also has performed detailed analyses and prepared reports that accurately state the true value of Leafs, Priuses and all other vehicles. Yet KBB appraises the fossil-fueled Prius far above the Leaf. This is in part due to KBB's bias toward dealers' interests. Dealers are the primary source for KBB funding. Dealers are biased toward fossil-fueled vehicles (FFVs) because they are more profitable and easier to sell to the public. The public has been biased toward FFVs by dealer advertising for nearly a century, regardless of the harm that FFVs have done and continue to do to the public. KBB may also be under the influence of the oil industry. That industry conducts intensive public disinformation and political coercion campaign to protect its immense investment in oil resources. Google "Climate of Doubt - PBS" and view this investigative report on its campaigns. Nothing threatens the oil industry's interest more than electric vehicles. As shown in this video, it will go to any length to protect its interest. So I would not be surprised to discover that KBB is under the influence of the oil industry and giving low appraisals of EVs to discourage their ownership.
KBB's unfounded, extremely low appraisals of Leafs became a self-fulfilling prophesy. Nothing could discouraged the general public from purchasing EVs more than the fear of excessive depreciation of the new cars they buy, like the excessive depreciation that Jeremy experienced when he traded in his 2012 Leaf SL. Readers will recall the rumored $16,500 cost for Leaf battery replacement. Whether that rumor was initiated by KBB, directly by the oil industry's disinformation campaign or by some other source is an open question. It is interesting to note that the cost of replacement batteries, recently announced by Nissan, is about $10,000 lower than the rumored price. It is important to note that this is about the difference between Edmunds.com's and KBB's Leaf appraisals. KBB did not adjust its appraisals after this announcement, which provides evidence of its bias against EVs, whether or not it is "doing the bidding" of the oil industry.
Considering the bias that exists against EV ownership in dealerships, KBB and especially the powerful oil industry, it is essential that we, "early adopters", carry the ball in convincing the "early majority" that it is in their best interests to go electric. Crossing the chasm between us and them is a tough slog, but collectively we can do it. We can start by circulating to our relatives and friends reports, like "Financial and Health Benefits of Driving Electric". An electronic version can be obtained by e-mailing [email protected]. We can turn their attention to the analysis-based reports of Edmunds.com and discourage the use of information from the KBB. We can price any EV we sell or trade at a price that for now is somewhere between Edmunds.com's True Value Appraisal and the biased KBB appraisal. That is what I did in pricing my low mileage, fully-equipped 2012 Leaf SL. Its sticker price was about $38,000.00. The Edmunds. com appraisal for private party sale is $25,037. I am asking $18,950.
I am sorry that KBB caused Jeremy to trade in his 2012 Leaf SL at such a low price. As my report, "Financial and Health Benefits of Driving Electric" demonstrates, Leaf ownership is financially superior to Prius ownership. Edmund.com also has performed detailed analyses and prepared reports that accurately state the true value of Leafs, Priuses and all other vehicles. Yet KBB appraises the fossil-fueled Prius far above the Leaf. This is in part due to KBB's bias toward dealers' interests. Dealers are the primary source for KBB funding. Dealers are biased toward fossil-fueled vehicles (FFVs) because they are more profitable and easier to sell to the public. The public has been biased toward FFVs by dealer advertising for nearly a century, regardless of the harm that FFVs have done and continue to do to the public. KBB may also be under the influence of the oil industry. That industry conducts intensive public disinformation and political coercion campaign to protect its immense investment in oil resources. Google "Climate of Doubt - PBS" and view this investigative report on its campaigns. Nothing threatens the oil industry's interest more than electric vehicles. As shown in this video, it will go to any length to protect its interest. So I would not be surprised to discover that KBB is under the influence of the oil industry and giving low appraisals of EVs to discourage their ownership.
KBB's unfounded, extremely low appraisals of Leafs became a self-fulfilling prophesy. Nothing could discouraged the general public from purchasing EVs more than the fear of excessive depreciation of the new cars they buy, like the excessive depreciation that Jeremy experienced when he traded in his 2012 Leaf SL. Readers will recall the rumored $16,500 cost for Leaf battery replacement. Whether that rumor was initiated by KBB, directly by the oil industry's disinformation campaign or by some other source is an open question. It is interesting to note that the cost of replacement batteries, recently announced by Nissan, is about $10,000 lower than the rumored price. It is important to note that this is about the difference between Edmunds.com's and KBB's Leaf appraisals. KBB did not adjust its appraisals after this announcement, which provides evidence of its bias against EVs, whether or not it is "doing the bidding" of the oil industry.
Considering the bias that exists against EV ownership in dealerships, KBB and especially the powerful oil industry, it is essential that we, "early adopters", carry the ball in convincing the "early majority" that it is in their best interests to go electric. Crossing the chasm between us and them is a tough slog, but collectively we can do it. We can start by circulating to our relatives and friends reports, like "Financial and Health Benefits of Driving Electric". An electronic version can be obtained by e-mailing [email protected]. We can turn their attention to the analysis-based reports of Edmunds.com and discourage the use of information from the KBB. We can price any EV we sell or trade at a price that for now is somewhere between Edmunds.com's True Value Appraisal and the biased KBB appraisal. That is what I did in pricing my low mileage, fully-equipped 2012 Leaf SL. Its sticker price was about $38,000.00. The Edmunds. com appraisal for private party sale is $25,037. I am asking $18,950.
JeremyW
Well-known member
I haven't done such a thing. Did you even read what I wrote?EAGERBEAVER said:
TimLee
Well-known member
Just as in real estate, the proper valuation of a product is what buyers are willing to pay.
Unfortunately for the LEAF it has been heavily leased rather than purchased from early on.
The early spreadsheet tracking orders and deliveries showed even the early adopters were leasing 60% to 70% of the time.
That % rose to around 85% at one point as the market began to understand the rapid capacity degradation problem and were uncomfortable with the poor capacity warranty and that Nissan would not sell replacement batteries until their June 2014 change of heart.
And the end of lease price is way above market for most.
Nissan would lose less $ if they would negotiate with the lessor but they will not.
They are just dumping them at auctions.
They don't have much of a Nissan certified vehicle program either.
The dealers don't want them and many auctions are not open to the public many of which would pay more than the dealers.
Especially the original leasor.
Overall a horrendously bad situation for the valuation of used LEAFs.
Unfortunately for the LEAF it has been heavily leased rather than purchased from early on.
The early spreadsheet tracking orders and deliveries showed even the early adopters were leasing 60% to 70% of the time.
That % rose to around 85% at one point as the market began to understand the rapid capacity degradation problem and were uncomfortable with the poor capacity warranty and that Nissan would not sell replacement batteries until their June 2014 change of heart.
And the end of lease price is way above market for most.
Nissan would lose less $ if they would negotiate with the lessor but they will not.
They are just dumping them at auctions.
They don't have much of a Nissan certified vehicle program either.
The dealers don't want them and many auctions are not open to the public many of which would pay more than the dealers.
Especially the original leasor.
Overall a horrendously bad situation for the valuation of used LEAFs.
EAGERBEAVER
Member
My apologies to JeremyW. My response to his reply should have been to GlennD's reply.
JeremyW is correct, my 2012 Leaf SL has not lost a bar. The temperatures in this part of Oregon are quite gentle on EV batteries.
JeremyW is correct, my 2012 Leaf SL has not lost a bar. The temperatures in this part of Oregon are quite gentle on EV batteries.
EAGERBEAVER
Member
Response to LeftieBiker:
Yes, I am quite sure. This crash safety degradation can be verified by visiting the website of U.S. DOT's NHTSA and most likely on EPA's website. Its timing was coincident with the move of the charger from the luggage compartment to the engine compartment, suggesting that the assembly in which the charger is now located is larger than the original and interferes with the function of the crumple zone on the front passenger's side. The degradation for rear passengers may be attributable to the removal of the charger's housing structure in the luggage compartment to provide more rear storage space.
Yes, I am quite sure. This crash safety degradation can be verified by visiting the website of U.S. DOT's NHTSA and most likely on EPA's website. Its timing was coincident with the move of the charger from the luggage compartment to the engine compartment, suggesting that the assembly in which the charger is now located is larger than the original and interferes with the function of the crumple zone on the front passenger's side. The degradation for rear passengers may be attributable to the removal of the charger's housing structure in the luggage compartment to provide more rear storage space.
That's a shame. It's going to be harder to sell/lease these cars to families when the only person with adequate protection is the driver.
WetEV
Well-known member
TimLee said:
Not at all what I was seeing when I was in the market for buying a replacement for my first Leaf, after it was totaled by the insurance company.
There were very few used Leafs for sale, and prices seemed to me to be high when compared with the price of a new car less rebates. Mostly the cars leased in 2011, and just a few 2012's, and there seemed to be a fair demand for them at that time. They were not priced low, not many of them, and they were not staying on dealer's lots.
Of course, this was in Seattle area, and like real estate, location matters. Might be different elsewhere, probably is different in hotter areas. Might even be different now.
Apparently there's a healthy market for used Leafs on the East Coast. Back when I was shopping for my 2012, the lease rates were $50 less per month for the Northwest compared to zip codes entered for other parts of the country. I think Nissan was subsidizing Leaf sales here as it is a good climate for the batteries. Not too hot, Not too cold.
Lower new car prices push down used car prices so maybe that's why they are put on a truck and sent East.
Lower new car prices push down used car prices so maybe that's why they are put on a truck and sent East.
garymelora
Well-known member
This is from Autotrader.com
There are several more out here in the East, this one is typical.
Used 2012 Nissan Leaf SL
Used 2012 Nissan Leaf for sale in King Of Prussia PA 19406
$16,900
12,437 miles
Black
Nice one owner low mileage 2012 Nissan Leaf SL, ordered in Super Black on Light Gray Seating
201 miles from 19406 Champagne Motorcar Company1-877-269-5686
2012 Leaf was 5 stars in crash test, reduced to 4 stars in 2013 due to reduced performance in side crash.
There are several more out here in the East, this one is typical.
Used 2012 Nissan Leaf SL
Used 2012 Nissan Leaf for sale in King Of Prussia PA 19406
$16,900
12,437 miles
Black
Nice one owner low mileage 2012 Nissan Leaf SL, ordered in Super Black on Light Gray Seating
201 miles from 19406 Champagne Motorcar Company1-877-269-5686
2012 Leaf was 5 stars in crash test, reduced to 4 stars in 2013 due to reduced performance in side crash.
Shopping for new and used Leafs in so-Cal...my dealer has two '12's, an SV with 17K for $15,999, down one bar, and a SL with 26K for $16,999, down 2 bars. Both were clean cars in excellent condition.
Quote a new '15 'S' with charger for $225 with $2K down, 3 year lease, 12K miles.
Also went next door to the Ford store and drove a FFE with pearl paint and leather, $31,500 with $10,500 off in incentives, $2400 down, $225 per month on 3 year lease. The FFE drives REALLY nice, better than our $40K Mercedes C250 Coupe.
It also looks like CarMax has been buying quite a few of them as they have a bunch on their lots down here. All lease returns. One I liked has 1500 miles on a '11, loaded SL, $18K. Seems too close to the cost of a new one for a 4-model year old car though. Didn't know enough about battery capacity loss to know to look so I don't know if it still has 12bars.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, just sharing some market data here in this locale. New to the forum.
Quote a new '15 'S' with charger for $225 with $2K down, 3 year lease, 12K miles.
Also went next door to the Ford store and drove a FFE with pearl paint and leather, $31,500 with $10,500 off in incentives, $2400 down, $225 per month on 3 year lease. The FFE drives REALLY nice, better than our $40K Mercedes C250 Coupe.
It also looks like CarMax has been buying quite a few of them as they have a bunch on their lots down here. All lease returns. One I liked has 1500 miles on a '11, loaded SL, $18K. Seems too close to the cost of a new one for a 4-model year old car though. Didn't know enough about battery capacity loss to know to look so I don't know if it still has 12bars.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, just sharing some market data here in this locale. New to the forum.
pkulak
Well-known member
If your price wasn't 4 grand high and accompanied by 2000 words of fluff, none of which includes battery stats, I might believe you're motivated solely by altruism. 
EAGERBEAVER
Member
This vehicle has been sold.
TimLee
Well-known member
Not sure I understand why you are doing that Walt :?:EAGERBEAVER said:
EAGERBEAVER
Member
[/quote]
Not sure I understand why you are doing that Walt :?:[/quote]
Tim, a comprehensive answer will be sent to you in a report. Anyone else who wants it can send a request to [email protected]. This report also tells how to set up your own project to satisfy a vital objective. That objective is to transform automotive transportation from engine-driven vehicles to motor-driven vehicles and their energy supply to hydro-, solar- or wind-generated electricity. The purpose is to eliminate the increasing disease, injury and death, caused by automobile exhaust.
This 83-year-old and his spouse cares deeply about what is happening to their grandchildren and all people who are or will increasingly suffer from the diseases caused by the toxic components of automobile exhaust. Google "The Health Effects of Automobile Exhaust" for access to the many medical and related reports on this subject. We also care deeply about the increasing amount of physical injury and number of deaths, caused by climate-related catastrophes. These events are increasing in number and severity because of the copious quantities of greenhouse gases that engine-driven vehicles spew out. Google "The Effects of Automobile Exhaust on Global Warming" for science-based reports on this subject.
I have found that one of the best a way to get engine-driven vehicle owners to buy an EV is to enable them to deal with an owner rather than a dealer's sales persons. They are frustrated by the latter, who generally know very little about a new EV, let alone the condition of a used one. From personal experience I know that not even authorized Nissan dealer service departments have the equipment, training or authorization to perform a detailed analysis of a Leaf's battery for example. The battery of even a new Leaf should be thoroughly analyzed with the aid of Leaf Spy before purchase, particularly those that may have sat on a lot with a full charge for an extended period of time. Such storage degrades EV batteries, another little-known fact. It is this kind of knowledge that engenders the trust that many potential buyers need before they will take the step into newer automobile technology.
We are also concerned about the amount of injury and the thousands of deaths that result annually from the ownership of both engine-driven and electric vehicles, whose manufacturers compromise crash safety for less important benefits. That is why I recommend 2011 and 2012 Leafs with an overall 5-star, crash safety rating for family use. I recommend 2013-2015 models for commuters and other owners who do not frequently carry passengers, because of such features as B-Mode which increases range. The driver's seat in these models is still rated 5-star, but all passenger seats have been down-rated to 3-stars. Apparently this was done to squeeze out more room in the cargo compartment, some cost in shorter hoses and cables and a little extra range. The vast majority of families do not need the added range, because they travel less than 40 miles per day (95% of travel) and use their engine-driven vehicle for the remaining 5%, can get by with the original cargo area and would gladly pay a little more for a safer vehicle for passengers, frequently their children.
This information may be disquieting to Nissan management and to some owners, who were not aware of this fact when they purchased one of these models. However, my code of professional ethics does not allow me to conceal this information and allow others to unwittingly fall into this trap that a sales person would not disclose for fear of killing a sale. The DOT-EPA sticker reveals this but buyers frequently do not see this for various reasons, some related to selling techniques.
Please do not misinterpret my comments. I am grateful to Nissan for taking a risk by jumping out ahead of other manufacturers and giving us this vehicle as means to replace deadly, engine driven vehicles. All I am asking is that Nissan recover the Leaf's 5-star safety rating by making the necessary changes in design.
Not sure I understand why you are doing that Walt :?:[/quote]
Tim, a comprehensive answer will be sent to you in a report. Anyone else who wants it can send a request to [email protected]. This report also tells how to set up your own project to satisfy a vital objective. That objective is to transform automotive transportation from engine-driven vehicles to motor-driven vehicles and their energy supply to hydro-, solar- or wind-generated electricity. The purpose is to eliminate the increasing disease, injury and death, caused by automobile exhaust.
This 83-year-old and his spouse cares deeply about what is happening to their grandchildren and all people who are or will increasingly suffer from the diseases caused by the toxic components of automobile exhaust. Google "The Health Effects of Automobile Exhaust" for access to the many medical and related reports on this subject. We also care deeply about the increasing amount of physical injury and number of deaths, caused by climate-related catastrophes. These events are increasing in number and severity because of the copious quantities of greenhouse gases that engine-driven vehicles spew out. Google "The Effects of Automobile Exhaust on Global Warming" for science-based reports on this subject.
I have found that one of the best a way to get engine-driven vehicle owners to buy an EV is to enable them to deal with an owner rather than a dealer's sales persons. They are frustrated by the latter, who generally know very little about a new EV, let alone the condition of a used one. From personal experience I know that not even authorized Nissan dealer service departments have the equipment, training or authorization to perform a detailed analysis of a Leaf's battery for example. The battery of even a new Leaf should be thoroughly analyzed with the aid of Leaf Spy before purchase, particularly those that may have sat on a lot with a full charge for an extended period of time. Such storage degrades EV batteries, another little-known fact. It is this kind of knowledge that engenders the trust that many potential buyers need before they will take the step into newer automobile technology.
We are also concerned about the amount of injury and the thousands of deaths that result annually from the ownership of both engine-driven and electric vehicles, whose manufacturers compromise crash safety for less important benefits. That is why I recommend 2011 and 2012 Leafs with an overall 5-star, crash safety rating for family use. I recommend 2013-2015 models for commuters and other owners who do not frequently carry passengers, because of such features as B-Mode which increases range. The driver's seat in these models is still rated 5-star, but all passenger seats have been down-rated to 3-stars. Apparently this was done to squeeze out more room in the cargo compartment, some cost in shorter hoses and cables and a little extra range. The vast majority of families do not need the added range, because they travel less than 40 miles per day (95% of travel) and use their engine-driven vehicle for the remaining 5%, can get by with the original cargo area and would gladly pay a little more for a safer vehicle for passengers, frequently their children.
This information may be disquieting to Nissan management and to some owners, who were not aware of this fact when they purchased one of these models. However, my code of professional ethics does not allow me to conceal this information and allow others to unwittingly fall into this trap that a sales person would not disclose for fear of killing a sale. The DOT-EPA sticker reveals this but buyers frequently do not see this for various reasons, some related to selling techniques.
Please do not misinterpret my comments. I am grateful to Nissan for taking a risk by jumping out ahead of other manufacturers and giving us this vehicle as means to replace deadly, engine driven vehicles. All I am asking is that Nissan recover the Leaf's 5-star safety rating by making the necessary changes in design.
TimLee
Well-known member
^^^^ Thanks Walt.
I kind of thought that was your intent to help perspective used LEAF purchasers.
The part I am still unclear on is doesn't this entail a lot of transaction cost?
Or is Oregon like Washington and not charging sales tax on electric vehicles and electric vehicle parts?
Still seems like if you are going to do many of these help buyers out transactions that would be much more cost effective if you were buying the used LEAFs at auction.
The ability to do that varies. I have never bought at auction but at least in the past you could do it in Tennessee. May have required some modest registration fee or posting bond or ability to pay documentation.
You might want to look into buying at auction.
Could turn into trustworthy Walt's used LEAF auction purchase service
Of course if you do much of it you may have to pay for business license.
Good luck Walt.
Really nice to see someone helping people out and furthering the use of electric vehicles.
I kind of thought that was your intent to help perspective used LEAF purchasers.
The part I am still unclear on is doesn't this entail a lot of transaction cost?
Or is Oregon like Washington and not charging sales tax on electric vehicles and electric vehicle parts?
Still seems like if you are going to do many of these help buyers out transactions that would be much more cost effective if you were buying the used LEAFs at auction.
The ability to do that varies. I have never bought at auction but at least in the past you could do it in Tennessee. May have required some modest registration fee or posting bond or ability to pay documentation.
You might want to look into buying at auction.
Could turn into trustworthy Walt's used LEAF auction purchase service
Of course if you do much of it you may have to pay for business license.
Good luck Walt.
Really nice to see someone helping people out and furthering the use of electric vehicles.
