$2,500 Home Carger: Included?

I remember that the MSRP price of the car included a $2500 "home charger" for those of us ordering the Leaf with all the bells & whistles. Does anyone else remember that stated in a Nissan email?

Those who've already had their assesment seem to note they're being told the following costs typically apply:

standard installation $1,296.68
charging dock, wall mount 15' cable $721.12
installation permit and processing $300.00
shipping and delivery $49.95
sales tax $66.70
total $2,434.45

Math isn't my specialty, but that means that the actual charger costs passed on by AV will be a paltry $65 or so. WHAT am I missing. Is THAT how the charger comes out to be "free" ?? Minus these VERY high costs? I already HAVE a 40amp breaker, AND line feeding out from it right next to my box. This is getting very bothersome ... especially after AV CANCELED my 1st two attempts to get an assessment.

Is this, or is this NOT the charger (following web page) we get for free, when we buy the loaded leaf?

http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/at_home/

.

The 3.3kW charger is free, and it is built into the car. What is not free is the EVSE (electric vehicle service/supply equipment, or something like that). The EVSE is a requirement to insure there is a safe way to get power to the car charger.

You may be thinking of the Level 1 120V charger. The $2200 charger ( average installation cost) from AV as recommended by Nissan is a Level 2 240V 32A charger. The Level 1 charger depending on whether it's 12A or 16A will be marginal for overnight charging. It might work at 16A but I've not seen anything but a 12A specified as yet.

Its not very difficult to either install it yourself or hire an electrician to wire it and it will be much less than $2200 unless you need a panel upgrade or you have a complicated installation.

I bought the 220V 32A Level 2 breaker, THHN wire, EMT conduit etc.. for less than $75 at Home Depot and it took about 2 hours to install it to where I want my EVSE. The permit will be about $75 and I've seen $700-$800 as the target Level 2 EVSE price once things are rolling. That means if you stall with a Level 1 for a while, a level 2 if self installed can cost less than $1000.

I didn't mean charger, the charger is inside the Leaf, its the EVSE which is a glorified high safety extension chord and holder.

pgrovetom said:

I bought the 220V 32A Level 2 breaker, THHN wire, EMT conduit etc.. for less than $75 at Home Depot and it took about 2 hours to install it to where I want my EVSE. The permit will be about $75 and I've seen $700-$800 as the target Level 2 EVSE price once things are rolling. That means if you stall with a Level 1 for a while, a level 2 if self installed can cost less than $1000.

Click to expand...

Hi,
Would you be able to list out completely the bill of materials for the parts purchased from Home Depot? I am interested to follow your path on this endeavour. Are you located in California? I was also wondering where did you get the $75 permit cost from...

Thanks in advance!

hill said:

I remember that the MSRP price of the car included a $2500 "home charger" for those of us ordering the Leaf with all the bells & whistles. Does anyone else remember that stated in a Nissan email?

Click to expand...

I've kept all the emails I've gotten from Nissan, and there is nothing about a $2500-anything in any of them. My $99 deposit acceptance email just pointed back to the website for details, so there might have been something there at one time which is gone now. I do vaguely remember some early comments about the fancy SL version including a faster 6.6kW charger while the base SV model would have only the 3.3kW charger, but that has gone by the boards. [Or maybe it was a statement that Nissan would upgrade the charger free on the SL when the 6.6kW charger became available.]

hill said:

Is this, or is this NOT the charger (following web page) we get for free, when we buy the loaded leaf?

http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/at_home/

Click to expand...

Note the wording on that page. They never refer to it as a charger, but as a "charging dock". (Ignore the possible future "charging appliance".) Think of a boat dock or a laptop dock. As palmermd said, the charger is built into the car. The dock is just a place where you can connect the car to your house current.

As to whether you can get that charging dock (officially EVSE) free, that depends on your location and whether you were accepted as one of the free recipients. I'm fairly certain that was not affected by which model you chose. I wasn't eligible for that, so I don't know, but it's possible there might have been an "up to $2500 value" qualifier on the offer.

Part 1

1. In the LEAF there is a 120v/240v charger. It needs AC power to work, either 120v or 240v. There is a standard J1772 "charging-power" socket on the car, in the front. This allows the LEAF to be "J1772-standard compliant", and the LEAF's internal charger to work, drawing current (getting power) from the "e-fuel" cord that you will attach to the car to bring the AC power from the "charging station", either one out in "public", one installed at your home, or a portable one.

2. With the LEAF, when you buy it, there will be an included, portable, "use (almost) anywhere" version of the "charging station". In the USA, apparently this will be a 120v plugin cord, with special "safety" features, and a special electrical cable (cord) and connector (J1772 plug) to plug into the J1772 socket on the car. Instead of calling this a "Smart E-Fuel Cord" (or "Toaster"), it is called an "EVSE" (an example of a piece of "Electric Vehicle Service Equipment").

3. So, the EVSE is supposed to make connecting AC power to the car safer, and tell the car how much (maximum) current (think power) that the charger in the car is allowed to draw "from the wall". Typical home bedroom wall sockets are on a shared circuit, usually from a 15-amp (occasionally 20-amp) breaker in your electrical "breaker panel" (which is connected through the Public Utility's "power" meter to the AC power "grid").

4. Since charging generally takes a "long" time (over an hour or so), it is considered a "continuous" load. In the USA, a continuous load is (legally) allowed to draw (use) only 80% of a breaker's current rating. So, 12 amps from a 15-amp breaker, and 16 amps from a 20-amp breaker.

(continued in Part 2)

palmermd said:

The 3.3kW charger is free, and it is built into the car. What is not free is the EVSE (electric vehicle service/supply equipment, or something like that). The EVSE is a requirement to insure there is a safe way to get power to the car charger.

Click to expand...

Ok - I got it. So . . . with your $2,200 home charger install (minus the $99 refund) costs, PLUS the COST of the $2,200 ish charger (minus the 1/2 fed tax rebate) ... we'll be looking at somewhere around THREE THOUSAND dollars out the door - right?

Part 2

5. The LEAF-included Level 1 (120v) EVSE will probably "tell" the car to "only use a maximum of 12 amps", so this "included" L1 EVSE can be plugged in almost anywhere to a 120v socket (one WITHOUT too many other ON loads, of course).

6. However, this "Level 1" charging will be "slow" (incorrectly called "trickle" charging in some descriptions). The 120 volts times 12 amps is 1440 watts (only 1.44 kilo watts, or 1.44 kW). At this rate, full charging of an "empty" LEAF (requires approximately 24 kW-hours of energy) can take over 20 hours. Note that a much smaller "quarter-charge" might take only 5 or 6 hours. Useful, but not the "faster" overnight (8 to 4 hour) charging that would often be much more convenient. But, enough to be able to "use" the LEAF, at least a little.

7. NOTE: For comparison, in the UK, the "wall-socket" voltage is 240 and the circuit-breakers are "continuous" rated, so a 15-amp circuit with their Nissan-included Level 2 (240 volt) plug-in, charge-anywhere EVSE there can be used to charge in about 8 hours, a MUCH more useful EVSE! (240 x 15 = 3600 watts, or 3.6 kW)

8. So, how are we allowed to charge "faster" in the USA?

See Part 3

No, you don't have it:

A. There is no "$2200" charger.
B. There is a 120v plugin EVSE (allows slow charging) INCLUDED with the LEAF (in a "package" in the cargo area).
C. An OPTIONAL 240v "faster-charging" EVSE is available from AV for about $2200 (or more, for non-standard installations), minus a possible tax credit.

Please see Part 1, 2, 3, ...

Part 3

8. Faster charging requires more power, more than is usually available at typical Residential 120v sockets. Most Residences have 240-volts available, just not "convenient". A typical electric dryer or whole-house Air Conditioner typically use 240v, and the 240v is available in the breaker panel box.

9. If one adds a dual-breaker to create a new "dedicated" 240v circuit, and wires it to an appropriate Level 2 (240v) EVSE, something like 4-hour charging could be accomplished. But, charger included inside the initial LEAF might not be able to use that much power, and will (probably) take about 8 hours to fully charge.

10. Such electrical "additions" usually requier a "permit" from the local "building" department. Usually one must submit detailed "plans" for the addition, including wire and conduit size. Often, the plans must be signed be a licensed contractor. The Permit fees are usually $50 or higher, and vary considerably.

11. The wiring might go through enclosed wall, or through conduit (metal thin-wall "pipe") if not in an enclosed wall. Working around electricity can be hazardous, even deadly, so it is best to get an experienced person to do the "install". Typically, the city will send an "inspector" after the install is "complete", which is usually included in the Permit fee.

12. The AeroVironment (AV) people have linked up with Nissan to offer a "package deal", site evaluation, bid, permit, the EVSE, electrical parts and the installation, and a 3-year warranty, all for about $2200 (as long as the electrical "additions" are relatively minor). Severe modifications can easily be 2 or 3 times that figure.

13. With the AV Level 2 EVSE installed, the "entry" LEAF could "full-charge" in about 8 hours, and the EVSE will even support the higher-power "4-hour" charging if/when the charger in the LEAF is upgraded to use more power and charge faster.

14. Out in "public" places, there will be a lot of "Level 2" EVSEs being installed, made by many different companies. Often, these are highly-desirable, "big bucks" contracts, supported by Federal, State, and even local grants.

15. Level 3 "Quick" charging later ...

garygid said:

No, you don't have it:

A. There is no "$2200" charger.
B. There is a 120v plugin EVSE (allows slow charging) INCLUDED with the LEAF (in a "package" in the cargo area).
C. An OPTIONAL 240v "faster-charging" EVSE is available from AV for about $2200 (or more, for non-standard installations), minus a possible tax credit.

Please see Part 1, 2, 3, ...

Click to expand...

Did you see the break-down in the OP ?
The electricians that come out break down THOSE costs for what? ... service work, simply so you can be ready for the CHARGER.
Now,THAT amount is over $2K. See the breakdown in the OP.
It looks like you're saying;
"There is no $2200 charger" . . .
and then you're saying there IS,
"An OPTIONAL 240v "faster-charging" EVSE [] available from AV for about $2200 ..."

I must be thick. To ME that says there's a $2K fee for electricans work (wire, breaker {needed or not}, labor etc) and NOT the cost of the charger. The itemized junk that the electrician is bidding "no where" includes the cost of a charger in their itemization. Thus, after you pay the electrician over $2K ... you STILL have to pay for the 240V EVSE charger (notwithstanding the fed rebate), if you want one.

Right?

hill,

I don't think you're "thick". It's just that so far now one else remembers about a free "$2500 charger". What I remember is a $2,200 EVSE (also called "charging dock"). But it was very unclear in the beginning what that $2,200 included, and the fact (as we now learn) that it's not an exact cost, only an estimate for the installed Level 2 EVSE if conditions are "simple" or "standard". The EVSE (the piece of equipment) as you point out in the OP is $721. The rest is electrician installation and permitting cost. The fact that even an electrician calls it a "CHARGER" is due to inexperience. (The "charger" is indeed already in the car.) The controversy (or frustration) is that Nissan is limiting early LEAFs to only charge at a maximum rate of 3.3kW, unless you use DC-QuickCharge. I doubt the $2500 you recall is the cost of the included Level 1 (120V) emergency, or "opportunity" EVSE. And, yes, the Aerovironment EVSE is optional. So you can avoid the estimated $2,200 cost, but you will be charging sloooowly with the portable L1 EVSE, or you can use a public EVSE ("charging station") if it's convenient.

Put together the (in my opinion) excessive $2,200 paired with a "crippled" 3.3kW charger in the car, and I am personally inclined to forgo the AV-installed-EVSE. The options are: a] build your own L2 EVSE (and even make it portable); b] Use L1 at home, supplemented by L2 public stations; c] wait for cheaper hard-wired L2 EVSE and/or install it (even AV's) myself.

The AV option is $721 for an EVSE and $1,479 for install. Half of this (estimated) $2,200 qualifies for a federal tax ceedit.

Do you maybe remember a $2,500 figure in relation to an estimated value placed on the EV-Project's "free" charging docks to be installed in the participants' homes as part of the ECOTality project ?

garygid said:

Please see Part 1, 2, 3, ...

Click to expand...

VERY NICE write-up. Thanks Gary ... great summary for all new-comers (and memory jogger for the rest of us, too). Make it a separate STICKY !

LEAFer said:

hill,

I don't think you're "thick". It's just that so far now one else remembers about a free "$2500 charger". What I remember is a $2,200 EVSE (also called "charging dock").

. . . . . . . . . . . . snip

Click to expand...

Just the charging dock is $2,200 ??

Can one forgoe the charging dock, and simpy buy the Home Charging Appliance ?

hill said:

LEAFer said:

hill,

I don't think you're "thick". It's just that so far now one else remembers about a free "$2500 charger". What I remember is a $2,200 EVSE (also called "charging dock").

. . . . . . . . . . . . snip

Click to expand...

Just the charging dock is $2,200 ??

Can one forgoe the charging dock, and simpy buy the Home Charging Appliance ?

Click to expand...

The "charging dock" IS the "Home Charging Appliance". You don't have to buy two because they're different names for the same device.

Here's a price breakdown:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=10354#p10354

Andy

AndyH said:

The "charging dock" IS the "Home Charging Appliance". You don't have to buy two because they're different names for the same device.

Here's a price breakdown:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=10354#p10354

Andy

Click to expand...

How CAN they be the same thing. HERE, they show them as two separate/distinct things:

http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/at_home/

They don't even look the same.
.

hill said:

AndyH said:

The "charging dock" IS the "Home Charging Appliance". You don't have to buy two because they're different names for the same device.

Here's a price breakdown:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=10354#p10354

Andy

Click to expand...

How CAN they be the same thing. HERE, they show them as two separate/distinct things:

http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/at_home/

They don't even look the same.
.

Click to expand...

That page is NOT Nissan - it's a list of products AVAILABLE (or soon to be available) from AeroVironment.

To charge the Leaf we need a cable and/or interface to connect from 120V or 240V to the car. The device is called electric vehicle supply equipment (EVSE). There are three flavors - Level 1 (120V), Level 2 (240V), and Level 3 (~350-400V DC).

Nissan is taking care of the 120V Level 1 side, because they're giving us a Level 1 EVSE that will allow us to charge from a 120V outlet. We're set to charge straight from the dealership with no additional purchases.

The Level 2 EVSE is optional - we do not have to buy one - but it is available if we choose. The device supported by Nissan - and installed by AeroVironment - is labeled 'charging dock' by AeroVironment. Devices sold by Clipper Creek and other companies use the term 'EVSE' in the name.

The 'home charging appliance' device that AeroVironment shows is a concept that doesn't yet exist. It's a Level 2 EVSE that has a bunch of batteries in the case. It's another way to do the same thing - sit between a power line and the car in order to charge the car's battery.

I hope that helps,
Andy

hill said:

AndyH said:

The "charging dock" IS the "Home Charging Appliance". You don't have to buy two because they're different names for the same device.

Here's a price breakdown:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=10354#p10354

Andy

Click to expand...

How CAN they be the same thing. HERE, they show them as two separate/distinct things:

http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/at_home/

They don't even look the same.
.

Click to expand...

The three products listed on the page you reference are all essentially an EVSE, and only one of them is necessary for properly connecting the LEAF to your home's AC, if you choose to take advantage of Level 2 charging for the LEAF. They just provide for different features (and pricing, especially the third one, which includes energy storage).

The AV "Home Charging Appliance" is a proposed future product that is plugged into "home" 120v power, like a toaster would be. Thus, it is powered rather like a "home appliance".

It will (somewhat) slowly store some energy (for awhile), and then use that stored energy to charge the EV (faster) at a convenient time.

Downside:
1. it is likely to be expensive.
2. it might possibly be quite heavy.
3. as described now, it will provide only "fast" (Level 2) charging of the EV, not "Quick" (Level 3) charging.
4. it will only have the energy-storage capacity to do a partial-charge of the EV.

Advantage:
1. a 240v source is not required.
2. electricity can be stored at a less expensive time, and then the EV can be charged at a different time.