USA Today: "Are Electric Cars Losing Their Spark?"

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TomT

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http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/story/2011-12-20/electric-cars-problems/52131810/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Rather than electrifying auto buyers, the plug-in car revolution is feeling more like a fizzle. A year after the first two plug-in electric cars from major makers went on sale, buyers appear put off by high sticker prices — even with federal subsidies — and, for the moment, by more-stable gasoline prices."
 
TomT said:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/story/2011-12-20/electric-cars-problems/52131810/1

"Rather than electrifying auto buyers, the plug-in car revolution is feeling more like a fizzle. A year after the first two plug-in electric cars from major makers went on sale, buyers appear put off by high sticker prices — even with federal subsidies — and, for the moment, by more-stable gasoline prices."


"SoS" == Same old **** from the journalistic genius gloom and doom folks. In another post I mentioned how it was my opinion that a journalist will write about anything, even the Second Coming, if they can put a Negative Spin on the story, e.g.: "Messiah Returns! Millions Condemned to Eternal Damnation".

Meanwhile I just went over 500 miles without a drop of fuel.

Cheers,

Dave
 
I have been talking up my LEAF at work. Many are interested at work in checking it out or test driving. The groundwork we lay as early adopters will help convince others to take a look.
 
Then there is this from http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fo...les-crowns-in-2011-says-edmundscom-2011-12-21 --

"Every year there are some cars that dealers just can't sell fast enough. Edmunds.com tracks these vehicles with its Days-to-Turn (DTT) metric, which discloses how long it takes a car to be sold once it hits the dealer lots. In 2011, the vehicle with the shortest DTT was the electric Nissan Leaf, which had just an average 11-day shelf life at Nissan dealerships."

Yes, most LEAF's are pre-sold, but this shows that even orphans don't stay on the lots very long.
 
adric22 said:
You also have to wonder if somebody bribes these people to write stories like that.
No just plain old lazy reporting and blinders.

Since most car sales are demand constrained, they assume if the sales are low, it must be because the demand is low.
 
While the article might be BS, John Q Public is never going to embrace an ev with a $35k+ price tag. There are just too many limitations. There is too much pre-planning. People like to just be able to get in car and drive. They do not want to have to worry about that side trip that they forgot to plan for. 75 miles +/- in the winter months is just not going to be something for the masses.
I make a lot of money and the $7500 tax credit is really not giving me an extra $7500. In closing, I love my Leaf. I love the fact that I do not need to take to the gas station. But in its current form the Leaf will not be something that the general public is ever going to embrace.
 
downeykp said:
While the article might be BS, John Q Public is never going to embrace an ev with a $35k+ price tag.

But John Q Public doesn't need to buy an EV - infact you can't even satisfy 1% of the demand if J6P wants to buy an EV.

All we now need are early adopters to buy EVs.

BTW, the average price of a car in the US is touching $30k now-a-days. J6P doesn't buy new cars - he buys used.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut11.shtm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A new car is second only to a home as the most expensive purchase many consumers make. According to the National Automobile Dealers Association, the average price of a new car sold in the United States is $28,400. That’s why it’s important to know how to make a smart deal.
 
We should collect these poorly written, ill-informed, and slanted reports and create a quarterly award. We have a community vote, announce the winner, and post the article to our "Wall of Shame".

Here's an article entitled "2011 Nissan Leaf SV: Review Notes" I read this afternoon.
The author states, "The drive itself is better than that of most similarly sized subcompacts". When you clearly don't even know what a subcompact is, should you really be writing automobile reviews?
 
They decided to quote moron Art Spinella, author of the thoroughly debunked Hummers are greener than Priuses CNW junk science. He also made idiotic claims that
This means that when gas prices go up, these people don't rush out to buy more hybrids. "They buy a Chevy Aveo," says Spinella. "It delivers the same fuel economy as a Prius, but at half the price."
Right, Chevy Aveo of the time got ~25 mpg overall on Consumer Reports tests while the Prius of the time got 44 mpg. 25 == 44 by this math.
 
downeykp said:
I make a lot of money and the $7500 tax credit is really not giving me an extra $7500. In closing, I love my Leaf. I love the fact that I do not need to take to the gas station. But in its current form the Leaf will not be something that the general public is ever going to embrace.

how is that possible?
you are AMT's?
I dont see how rich folks losing part of the tax credit makes a credible argument that the average 100k earning or less will lose part of the credit.
someone with an AGI of 65k would get the full credit.
 
Unfortunately for me, I already get back most of the money I pay in taxes already. So the credit does not do me much good. In hindsight I probably should have leased, but leasing just didn't make sense. A tax rebate might get more people to buy, a credit could be holding people back.
 
downeykp said:
While the article might be BS, John Q Public is never going to embrace an ev with a $35k+ price tag. There are just too many limitations. There is too much pre-planning. People like to just be able to get in car and drive. They do not want to have to worry about that side trip that they forgot to plan for. 75 miles +/- in the winter months is just not going to be something for the masses.
I make a lot of money and the $7500 tax credit is really not giving me an extra $7500. In closing, I love my Leaf. I love the fact that I do not need to take to the gas station. But in its current form the Leaf will not be something that the general public is ever going to embrace.

In the mid '70s many people could give you lots of reasons why small efficient cars weren't worth it. Then, the oil shortages hit -- gas lines, gas rationing, gas outages. People realized that cheap endless gasoline was not a given. In just a few years the average mileage for cars sold in the US went from the low teens to the mid twenties. Dealers couldn't sell small cars fast enough.

If we see $5, $6, $7 dollar/gal gasoline, watch how fast the market changes. And shortages, rationing, outages? A range-limited EV that you can fill up every night starts looking brilliant compared to an ICE that can't find fuel.
 
Nubo said:
In the mid '70s many people could give you lots of reasons why small efficient cars weren't worth it. Then, the oil shortages hit -- gas lines, gas rationing, gas outages. People realized that cheap endless gasoline was not a given. In just a few years the average mileage for cars sold in the US went from the low teens to the mid twenties. Dealers couldn't sell small cars fast enough.

If we see $5, $6, $7 dollar/gal gasoline, watch how fast the market changes. And shortages, rationing, outages? A range-limited EV that you can fill up every night starts looking brilliant compared to an ICE that can't find fuel.
Yep... it puzzles me that the US auto buying public has such a case of short term memory/amnesia and not thinking about the bigger picture and long term. I see an insane # of monstrosity class SUVs (full-sized ones like Tahoes, Expeditions, Suburbans, Escalades, etc.) or even worse, Hummer H2s, running around my area, almost always driven solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers. Most of the folks driving look old enough to have been alive for both 70s oil crises. Some of these sparsely loaded battering rams of death are driven by teenagers :eek: :x but yet their parents should be old enough to remember the oil crises.

I wasn't born yet for the first one but have vague memories of the rationing, flags and odd/even system of the 2nd. Yet, the US now imports a greater percentage of oil than we did back on those crises. It seems those folks just don't care and are ignorant.

Whenever gas prices get "high" (>$4), people flee large trucks and SUVs and thus their sales plummet. When they get "cheap" again, they flock right back to them. US auto execs have complained about their behavior since it makes it difficult to plan production and future products.

Sometimes when discussing the oil the crises, I point to http://blog.sfgate.com/parenting/2011/03/02/remembering-the-1973-oil-crisis-bay-area-photos/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; along w/a bunch of quotes from Tivocommunity where people recounted their experiences: http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-house-pancakes/90757-remembering-1973-oil-crisis.html#post1276469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
 
"They forgot Marketing 101," says Arvizu, 33, who works as a clean-tech researcher. "They forgot that people buy cars because it makes them look good and feel good. … These cars are sexy, fast and fun."

Sexy, not so much. Except for the Teslas.

But she's right. Stop with the contrived, smarmy polar bear commercials and singing electrical outlets. It's silly, stupid, and makes people gag. Stop with the ridiculous trees and leaves on the dash displays. Just make a car...that happens to be electric.

Enough of the word "green." It's overused to death. Stop making these bulbous, silly cars with even sillier names that look like a golf cart and a half with a roof.

Cmon, LEAF? Really? The acronym is cringe inducing. That name needs a "kick me" sign on it. So I'm just going to say it. Stop with the environmental angle. The melodramatic, Oprah crying, "save the earth!" evangelism. Take off the birkenstocks, shelve the polar bears and advertize THE CAR. Well, put a decent body on it first, then advertize the car.

No plug decals. No earth decals. It's a car. Act like it's a car. Sell it like it's a car. Design it like a car. Not some miquetoast, high tech appliance on wheels. With decent looking gauges and an interior that invites it to be driven. Recycle plastic bottles to make more plastic bottles. Not make seats and carpet out of them.

LEAF? MiEV, Up!, ForTwoEV. Somebody texting these idiotic names?

Tesla Roadster. See? That wasn't hard.
 
evnow said:
adric22 said:
You also have to wonder if somebody bribes these people to write stories like that.
No just plain old lazy reporting and blinders.

I don't know. With all the money and power at stake in the oil industry, I'm willing to throw on the tin foil cap here. It seems like all the stories are all the same, so while lazy reporting might be to blame (or citogenesis: http://xkcd.com/978/), it makes me wonder if these reporters are being fed stats and story ideas from those in the oil industry.

If I adjust the cap to just the right angle, I even wonder about the current stability of gas prices being an attempt to squash the EV industry before it gains a foothold, maybe not from the oil producers themselves, but possibly even the countless speculators between the oil fields and the gas pumps. I mean there was a brief TV news clip about how gas prices are dropping just in time for the holiday travel season, and the reason they gave, somehow saying it with a straight face, was because of uncertainties in the European economy :shock: :shock: :shock: When was the last time you recall that gas prices didn't edge up a week or two before busy holiday travel times, and why on earth would they go down given economic uncertainties? They seem to use ANY excuse to raise prices normally!
 
Train said:
But she's right. Stop with the contrived, smarmy polar bear commercials and singing electrical outlets. It's silly, stupid, and makes people gag. Stop with the ridiculous trees and leaves on the dash displays. Just make a car...that happens to be electric.

Enough of the word "green." It's overused to death. Stop making these bulbous, silly cars with even sillier names that look like a golf cart and a half with a roof.

Cmon, LEAF? Really? The acronym is cringe inducing. That name needs a "kick me" sign on it. So I'm just going to say it. Stop with the environmental angle. The melodramatic, Oprah crying, "save the earth!" evangelism. Take off the birkenstocks, shelve the polar bears and advertize THE CAR. Well, put a decent body on it first, then advertize the car.

No plug decals. No earth decals. It's a car. Act like it's a car. Sell it like it's a car. Design it like a car. Not some miquetoast, high tech appliance on wheels. With decent looking gauges and an interior that invites it to be driven. Recycle plastic bottles to make more plastic bottles. Not make seats and carpet out of them.

Oh... I can't agree more.. I think they should definitely advertise the electric part of it.. but the "green" aspect should be a footnote at best. Truth be told, I'm getting really tired of defending my Leaf against arguments about it burning coal and whatnot. Yes, their argument is totally flawed. I've never lost an argument about that. But the whole thing irritates me from the very beginning because I only get into these arguments because people assume I bought the car to save the environment. So lately I've been answering such an argument with something like, "While you are wrong, and I will be happy to prove to you that you are wrong if you desire to debate it, I would like to point out that environmental reasons had almost zero influence on my decision to buy a Leaf." Its amazing how many people are dumbstruck because of that statement.

I'm just absolutely tired of people assuming that an electric car is a pain to drive and is plagued with disadvantages and therefor the only reason somebody would put themselves through such torture would be to save the environment. I mean WTF? And who is to blame? I believe the marketing department at Nissan, Toyota, and Mitsubishi are at least partly to blame.

Here's a perfect example of Toyota's BS marketing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq4nrmnqY9o[/youtube]

So while this video probably appeals to "Joe Environmentalist" that lives in California, it has almost zero appeal to the rest of the country. In fact, I will go as far as to say that this commercial actually damaged sales of the Prius here in Texas. It is commercials like this that give the Prius the feeling of being "un-manly" if a man were to drive one.

I mean seriously.. They need to do some ads with Prius or the Leaf with some cool music and some hot babes..

Take some lessons from Mitsubishi:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH0zWrDi6GA[/youtube]
 
lpickup said:
If I adjust the cap to just the right angle, I even wonder about the current stability of gas prices being an attempt to squash the EV industry before it gains a foothold, maybe not from the oil producers themselves, but possibly even the countless speculators between the oil fields and the gas pumps. I mean there was a brief TV news clip about how gas prices are dropping just in time for the holiday travel season, and the reason they gave, somehow saying it with a straight face, was because of uncertainties in the European economy :shock: :shock: :shock: When was the last time you recall that gas prices didn't edge up a week or two before busy holiday travel times, and why on earth would they go down given economic uncertainties? They seem to use ANY excuse to raise prices normally!
According to an AAA survey, although gas prices have dropped a little since last month, we are still paying the highest price for gasoline during the Xmas season this year than at any time in history, despite lessening demand.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4571981...oliday-gas-prices-all-time-high/#.TvSbI_Ky9H8

While we depend on importing crude oil, we are exporting refined petroleum products overseas at record rates:
http://money.msn.com/ways-to-invest/why-the-us-is-sending-oil-overseas-jubak.aspx
In September, the United States exported 35,000 barrels a day of unrefined crude oil. That same month, the U.S. imported 9 million barrels of crude oil a day. If you look just at crude, the U.S. is the same huge importer of oil it has been for as long as most of us can remember.

But if you look at the figures for refined petroleum products, the picture is shockingly different. In September, the United States exported 3.2 million barrels of refined petroleum products a day and imported just 2.2 million barrels a day. That's a surplus of exports over imports of roughly a million barrels a day. For the first nine months of 2011, according to the U.S. Energy Information Agency, the U.S. exported 752 million barrels of refined petroleum products: gasoline, jet fuel, kerosene and such chemical-industry feed stocks as ethylene, butane and propylene.

The swing in less than a decade is immense. For 2005, for example, the U.S. imported 900 million more barrels of refined petroleum products than it exported....

There's no evidence to suggest that U.S. consumers have gotten any benefit from the United States becoming an exporter of refined oil products. Gasoline prices, as far as anyone can tell, haven't fallen as a result, for example. Higher oil prices are still likely to take money out of consumers' wallets that could have been spent on things other than gasoline.

So what exactly will happen from the Keystone pipeline project being built? Will it result in lower gas prices for USA consumers, or will the oil companies simply export the refined product and increase their profits? I know what I think. YMMV.

TT
 
adric22 said:
Here's a perfect example of Toyota's BS marketing. So while this video probably appeals to "Joe Environmentalist" that lives in California, it has almost zero appeal to the rest of the country. In fact, I will go as far as to say that this commercial actually damaged sales of the Prius here in Texas. It is commercials like this that give the Prius the feeling of "homosexuality" if a man were to drive one. I mean seriously.. They need to do some ads with Prius or the Leaf with some cool music and some hot babes.. Take some lessons from Mitsubishi

Although from CA, I don't consider myself a "Joe Environmentalist", and I must say that I completely disagree with your opinions on those commercials. I consider the Prius ad MUCH more aesthetically pleasing (both audibly and visually) than the Mitsubishi ad (although I will give Mits the edge in regard to including price information and a url at the end). And as for your "homosexuality" comment, I haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about: are you saying that as a detraction or as a positive for the Prius ad?
 
+1!

Train said:
"They forgot Marketing 101," says Arvizu, 33, who works as a clean-tech researcher. "They forgot that people buy cars because it makes them look good and feel good. … These cars are sexy, fast and fun."

Sexy, not so much. Except for the Teslas.

But she's right. Stop with the contrived, smarmy polar bear commercials and singing electrical outlets. It's silly, stupid, and makes people gag. Stop with the ridiculous trees and leaves on the dash displays. Just make a car...that happens to be electric.

Enough of the word "green." It's overused to death. Stop making these bulbous, silly cars with even sillier names that look like a golf cart and a half with a roof.

Cmon, LEAF? Really? The acronym is cringe inducing. That name needs a "kick me" sign on it. So I'm just going to say it. Stop with the environmental angle. The melodramatic, Oprah crying, "save the earth!" evangelism. Take off the birkenstocks, shelve the polar bears and advertize THE CAR. Well, put a decent body on it first, then advertize the car.

No plug decals. No earth decals. It's a car. Act like it's a car. Sell it like it's a car. Design it like a car. Not some miquetoast, high tech appliance on wheels. With decent looking gauges and an interior that invites it to be driven. Recycle plastic bottles to make more plastic bottles. Not make seats and carpet out of them.

LEAF? MiEV, Up!, ForTwoEV. Somebody texting these idiotic names?

Tesla Roadster. See? That wasn't hard.
 
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