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Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:16 pm
by LEAFfan
Someone needs to remove the FFE from the title. It doesn't fit in with the others because it's a 'compliance' car. It's only offered in a very small number of states. Because of this, of course the number will be low. :roll:

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:08 pm
by GaslessInSeattle
adric22 wrote:
GaslessInSeattle wrote:Depending on Nissan's next move, we will likely sell and a lower price is not going to get us back. more range and a solution to the heat problem is probably what it's going to take to keep us on. the tricky thing is, Nissan is the only one offering a CHAdeMO quick charging port, and there are lots of CHAdeMO's cropping up in the Seattle area. It will be hard to return to the side lines and "wait and see" with all those quick charging stations calling, then again, with the battery now being such a wild card, staying in the game could prove to be a very pricy proposition! What to do???????????????? Hem, Haw...


If you're in Seattle, why are you even worried about the battery issues? I haven't heard of any degradation issues that far north.


For several reasons:
1. the temperature appears to be rising practically everywhere but the Northwest. Still I'm worried about the market for the Leaf overall and would want to sell it before depreciation accelerates substantially. My plan has always been to trade up till the battery capacity reaches 2-300 miles, now i'm not sure if I'll have the luxury of doing that due to rapid depreciation.
2. I think we are just seeing the beginning of the premature capacity loss. so far, it does not look to me like it tapers off, and if anything gets worse over time. Honestly, without really knowing where to draw the line, I'm reluctant to take the Leaf even into parts of OR and WA when it's hot there. all the uncertainty is giving me cold feet.
3. perhaps most importantly, my hope with buying the Leaf has been to support a company that appeared to have high integrity and a good product that was appropriate for the masses, a viable alternative to all that is wrong with ICE's and Big Oil. The dozens of folks reporting early capacity loss have left me feeling that Nissan did not do it's homework like I was assured they had. My confidence in Nissan has become quite shaky with all this and I'm no longer sure they deserve my patronage. on a basic level, the trust gap is widening.

4. The Leaf without TMS is vulnerable to loss of range in the cold months, permanent loss of range during the hot summer months as well as some undefined "normal" background capacity loss over time. The number of oscillating variables is beginning to feel like to much to juggle!


cwerdna wrote:
GaslessInSeattle wrote: the tricky thing is, Nissan is the only one offering a CHAdeMO quick charging port, and there are lots of CHAdeMO's cropping up in the Seattle area.

Mitsubishi is w/the i-MiEV. There are others at http://www.chademo.com/03_EVs_compatibl ... AdeMO.html, but most of them don't exist in the US.


yes, sorry, it does offer CHAdeMO and that's a good thing but it won't work for us and doesn't appear to be reaching market viability, at least not yet.

Re: PiP 0% financing

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:25 pm
by GaslessInSeattle
Randy wrote:
From a recent Plug-in 2012 conversation with Nissan reps, the Smyrna-produced batteries will be the same as what has come out of Japan. There will be some slight efficiency gains in the MY 2013 car so it uses slightly less energy, but the battery will be the same...[/quote]

Yes, in light of the capacity loss, it appears to me that Nissan really has to come up with substantial perks to keep the momentum going into the next model year. It's still possible that they are holding their cards to the chest, though unlikely IMHO, and that they have been planning all along to increase capacity and robustness of the battery. right about now would be very good! I can think of a variety of reasons why they would withhold that info from us at this point, mainly to move through the current stock of 2012's, but I agree it's a long shot. On the other hand it's kind of unthinkable that they did not see this coming and truly have no plan for significant upgrades. I would imagine that if they truly are committed to the Leaf and EV's in general, that they are scrambling right now to make some changes.

I hate to say it, but it's actually kind of surprising that the July sales numbers were as good as they were considering how the capacity loss issue has eclipsed practically all else with respect to the Leaf.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:35 pm
by Stoaty
GaslessInSeattle wrote:For several reasons:
1. the temperature appears to be rising practically everywhere but the Northwest. Still I'm worried about the market for the Leaf overall and would want to sell it before depreciation accelerates substantially. My plan has always been to trade up till the battery capacity reaches 2-300 miles, now i'm not sure if I'll have the luxury of doing that due to rapid depreciation.
2. I think we are just seeing the beginning of the premature capacity loss. so far, it does not look to me like it tapers off, and if anything gets worse over time. Honestly, without really knowing where to draw the line, I'm reluctant to take the Leaf even into parts of OR and WA when it's hot there. all the uncertainty is giving me cold feet.
3. perhaps most importantly, my hope with buying the Leaf has been to support a company that appeared to have high integrity and a good product that was appropriate for the masses, a viable alternative to all that is wrong with ICE's and Big Oil. The dozens of folks reporting early capacity loss have left me feeling that Nissan did not do it's homework like I was assured they had. My confidence in Nissan has become quite shaky with all this and I'm no longer sure they deserve my patronage. on a basic level, the trust gap is widening.

4. The Leaf without TMS is vulnerable to loss of range in the cold months, permanent loss of range during the hot summer months as well as some undefined "normal" background capacity loss over time. The number of oscillating variables is beginning to feel like to much to juggle!

Even though I love my Leaf and #1 doesn't apply to me (still think Leaf can be useful for me for about 10 years since 50% capacity will be enough to cover a lot of my needs), I have to agree about #2-4. I am pretty disappointed in Nissan at this point, as it appears they cut a lot of corners (no TMS, allowing use of 93% of battery capacity per Ingineer, early capacity loss in hot states and then stonewalling) and marketed the Leaf beyond its actual long-term capabilities.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:49 am
by TomT
With a whopping three QCs (two if you ignore Mitsubishi's generosity) in all of the greater Ventura/Los Angeles/Orange County/San Bernadino areas, it is not much of calling for us...

GaslessInSeattle wrote:the tricky thing is, Nissan is the only one offering a CHAdeMO quick charging port, and there are lots of CHAdeMO's cropping up in the Seattle area. It will be hard to return to the side lines and "wait and see" with all those quick charging stations calling,

Re: PiP 0% financing

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:51 am
by TomT
I suspect most of the gain is due simply to being able to charge faster with the 6.6Kw charger thus reducing fixed parasitic losses such cooling pumps, much like the difference between current L1 and L2 charging efficiency...

GaslessInSeattle wrote:There will be some slight efficiency gains in the MY 2013 car so it uses slightly less energy, but the battery will be the same...

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:34 am
by DaveinOlyWA
TomT wrote:With a whopping three QCs (two if you ignore Mitsubishi's generosity) in all of the greater Ventura/Los Angeles/Orange County/San Bernadino areas, it is not much of calling for us...

GaslessInSeattle wrote:the tricky thing is, Nissan is the only one offering a CHAdeMO quick charging port, and there are lots of CHAdeMO's cropping up in the Seattle area. It will be hard to return to the side lines and "wait and see" with all those quick charging stations calling,


even with the much higher public charging profile (WA ranks 2nd behind OR in charger density per population) i have to agree that my biggest disappointment by far has been the lack of charging infrastructure that we had been promised.

people talk about range loss like it was never mentioned or expected and seeing people who have not seen it yet, upset by it is a bit strange to me. i have range loss and it was expected and i accept it knowing that i only decided on the LEAF because it had MORE range than i needed most of the time so losing a bit of it was ok. they told me to expect 30% less so that is what i planned for; 30% less TODAY means in 10 years, i am ok with it.

but what i was also told is that we would have 2500 public chargers including 40 DCFCs from Blink, a dozen from AV plus an expected handful from others. Well, AV is here (8 months late) and Blink has barely started (more than a year late)

it has become very clear to me that this is the biggest problem Nissan faces. its the lack of support. it is not the batteries. i knew the range would be falling off. i am prepared for that, but my plans included having much more charging options than i have now. of the nearly 2500 L2's we were supposed to have, we have about 500. huge regional gaps where there are none, other places with chargers every few blocks. there is no balance, plan or structure to the installs that i can see, but worst of all; no transparency.

we have just gotten word that along with the 2 DCFCs for the EV Highway Project (first 2 of 40) there are nine more set to go but other than a brief mention of two of the cities involved, everything else is hush hush? why is that?

why cant the city be revealed? this cant possibly put "pressure" on any entities involved as the final details get hammered out can it?

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:40 am
by TonyWilliams
GaslessInSeattle wrote:with the battery now being such a wild card, staying in the game could prove to be a very pricy proposition! What to do????????????????

GaslessInSeattle wrote:..... I'm worried about the market for the Leaf overall and would want to sell it before depreciation accelerates substantially.


A truly excellent summary. The battery issues affect the value of all LEAFs; even those LEAF owners with their head in the sand. Just saying "charge more" wont fix resale value; quite the opposite.

When Nissan tell's you your 5 star rated battery depreciation is normal, they will also be able to tell you that the falling resale / trade-in is normal also.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:46 am
by thankyouOB
i doubt that they will roll out their marketing plans before Labor Day.
patience has proven to be a virtue with the LEAF, as with some of the other issues we have faced here: line-jumpers, earthquake, battery issues, blink errors, installation of EVSE crawl.

the summer is the summer. Folks are not paying attention and marketers and advt folks know that.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:02 am
by DaveinOlyWA
Nissan could solve the hot weather issue quite easily by installing an effective QC network and allowing anyone with "out of spec" degradation free access to them. albeit a bit of a roundabout way of doing it, but this gives back the loss of range. problem is getting the multitudes of results-inept political bodies together on one page.