On the fence... questions for current owners

coach81 · Jul 27, 2016

My Ford Fusion Hybrid of 4 years has been acting up.. thinking about the leaf... again... questions for current owners:

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?

5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?

Thanks in advance,
Coach

Reddy · Jul 27, 2016

1. Today I would buy used due to cheap prices (less than $10,000), but my in-town driving needs are minimal. Otherwise, I would lease since the tech is moving so fast.
2. NO GAS, SMOOTH and QUIET.
3. Battery degradation is much faster than advertised back in 2010.
4. Yes, I've been charging with L1 for almost 5 yrs (I'm at 35,000 mi now).
5. Vandalized or chargers are essentially non-existent here.

jjeff · Jul 27, 2016

1. Yes but probably used, I purchased my second Leaf(a '12SL) for less than 1/4 of my first(a '13S) and it had less than 30k miles. True it's missing a couple bars and it's range is ~20-25 miles less than my '13 but for shorter trips it works just fine. Actually if I had to do it over I'd probably look for a used '13, many things about the '12 I don't care for as much as my '13 and probably newer Leafs.

2. Quiet, Quick, Front seat room.

3. Cargo room(or very much lack of it), cramped rear seat room.

4. No problem, I used a L1 for my first year?? and that was in MN where it gets cold and preheat doesn't work so well with L1.

5. Don't really use them but I've never seen one damaged in my area.

WetEV · Jul 27, 2016

coach81 said:
1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?

Yes, but I'm not sure I would in a hot place. Battery capacity loss is temperature dependent, hotter means shorter battery life. Only the people in cool climates will get the advertised life. Newer batteries are probably better. Thermal Management System (like Tesla and Volt) might be a good idea in hotter climates, but not in cool climates.

coach81 said:
2. Overall Best about the vehicle.

Quiet, smooth, no gas stops (mostly charge at home), might even be cheaper than an ICE, even at the price I paid in 2012 and the current price of gasoline.

coach81 said:
3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?

Hard to find one. Love the car. Would be nice if I had more range, but that impacts me once a month or less.

coach81 said:
4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?

Yes.

coach81 said:
5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?

99%+ of charging is in my garage. I've taken trips, and have yet to run into a problem. However, I check status before leaving with Plugshare.comand/or on the charging network's web page.

KillaWhat · Jul 27, 2016

My Ford Fusion Hybrid of 4 years has been acting up.. thinking about the leaf... again... questions for current owners:

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?
Yes. Love the Car. I accept and Understand the limitations.
It’s my daily driver. Upgraded to Leather interior, etc.

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.
Quiet, Fast, No Gas, I have solar panels, Rear leg room is better than your Ford

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?
Range. Again, I accept this limitation

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?
Sure, But why would you?

5. I've heard of chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?
The EVSE network is growing, not shrinking.
The DCQC network is sometimes fragile, but the L2 network is solid.
We have 7 DCQC chargers close (+/- 30 Miles).

The Pennsylvania Turnpike is putting 2 DCQC units in every rest area. I have used them,
but don’t rely on them.
Yes, I charge 99% at home, L2.

I did a year of L1, then L2 (changed my life), then upgraded to a 6.6Kw+ on-board charger,
and my life changed again.

Don’t be afraid of 240 Volts.

Good luck

LeftieBiker · Jul 27, 2016

If you can keep the car cool in a garage that is at least partly air conditioned, a Leaf should work fine for you. If you can't keep it cool, lease it. They now have enough capacity (except the S, until next model year) to still be usable after 3-5 years.

nickandre · Jul 27, 2016

Alright, leaf for a year opinion:

I would purchase the car again, but only under very specific circumstances. If you have two cars in your family, it makes a great commuting car. With a 30 mile commute you will have a bit of flexibility if you want to visit your friend after work. Also look into local charging infrastructure (free and readily available charging at work or in town by the coffee shop makes it a no-brainer).

If you do not have a second car, the leaf is not practical unless you are a crazy geek like me and even then it is a stretch. Normal highway driving at real speeds will shorten your range drastically. Even normal 1 hour car trips you wouldn't blink about making in an ICE car cannot be made without lots of planning and reduced speed (and forget about a return trip -- full L1 charge at a friend's house takes like 20 hours, unless you pack a foldable bicycle in the trunk and cruise on over from the closest charging station). Quick Chargers ameliorate this _slightly_ but the "fill ups" take 30 minutes after 60 minutes of driving, the chargers are unreliable (finicky and not rapidly repaired, can be a total surprise when they **** the bed on you) and not always convenient, and leaving yourself a reasonable safety margin means charges every 40-50 miles of highway driving (even if the QCs existed in those "necessary" places).

So: if you have a 30 mile commute, another ICE car, and a garaged area where you can easily charge it nightly, the car makes a lot of sense, it drives really well, and it's a fun car.

Other points:

I would not, under any circumstances, buy a new leaf until the release of the 200 mile version. Values are plummeting so fast it's not even funny. The 2016 leaf has a laughably small increase in range in exchange for double or triple the cost, which doesn't even consider that besides the battery and tires, nothing in the car really wears. The Leaf hasn't seen but a small upgrade since the 2013 or even OG 2011 model year and with the new cars coming out with 200 mile range you shouldn't expect anything but aggressive depreciation.
I got my 2013 SV with 16k miles, QC, LED headlights for $12.5k in late August 2015 and the price now is $9.5k 9 months and 9k miles later. I ran the numbers at 56 cents a mile for my first year (including tax, depreciation, high insurance, and a new tire) even after I got free power for almost all my driving through finagling myself into University and municipal charging stations (which you probably won't due to excessive inconvenience I endured to do this).
Note with the L1 charger that if you get home at 9PM and leave at 7AM the next morning, the car will only accrue ~50% of charge (which is enough to do your daily commute but no extra if you come in "running on fumes"). The L1 is also less efficient than the L2. If you don't get a built-in charger, look into the EVSE Upgrade modification for your charging cable. Works very well and allows charging up to ~5kW from a dryer outlet using adapters. It comes in exceedingly handy and after purchasing an L6-30 extension cord I can reach dryer outlets a room over and charge at many family residences.
The cars are engineered well internally but the UX is terrible and they're dinosaurs. Radio and nav system (if you get them) reminds me of 2006 at best.
If you buy, invest in the LeafSpy app and a CAN dongle to check battery health and use that as part of your price negotiations. I bought mine with 12 bars but it probably had 85% SoH as it lost a bar within months of my owning it.
You may very well still have to do planning and think ahead to use the car. If you don't enjoy the vehicle, you won't enjoy doing this planning.
If you live somewhere much south of Boston/Seattle, you're going to see faster-than-normal battery deterioration. Best to avoid (since leases are so bad right now due to the aforementioned plummeting values).

LeftieBiker · Jul 27, 2016

The 2016 leaf has a laughably small increase in range in exchange for double or triple the cost,

The MSRP for the 2016 SV is, AFAIK, about the same as the 2015 SV. Certainly not "double."

coach81 · Jul 27, 2016

Thanks for all the replies.

Good news is.. so far the FFH is running ok (battery / power) has all of a sudden been an issue- but that's another story.

Sounds like-

1. I should probably not look to buy a 2016 as the "new leaf" is coming end of this year, early next year?
2. If I ever do buy.. I should probably look to install an L2 charge port at the house.
3. Main concern- shocker- is range on current Leafs.
4. Most owners love the car, except for the accepted range and a few other issues.

I appreciate all the info.

LeftieBiker · Jul 27, 2016

1. I should probably not look to buy a 2016 as the "new leaf" is coming end of this year, early next year?

Actually, what is coming in December or thereabouts is just another update to the existing Leaf, but it's significant: a 40kwh pack, we are hearing. That means a range of about 140 miles. Nissan is hoping, if this is true, to stop their customers from er Bolting from Nissan to Chevrolet before Leaf 2 comes out in almost two years. It might work, in my case, if the price is right.

coach81 · Jul 27, 2016

Hmmmmm wondering if it will be a better buyer's market in December (for 2016 SV) or now??? As I think the current 80-100 mile range is fine for me?

RegGuheert · Jul 27, 2016

coach81 said:
1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?

Yes. But I would get the 40 kWh version if/when it becomes available. I would certainly get the 30 kWh version if I were buying today.

coach81 said:
2. Overall Best about the vehicle.

Refueling at home.

coach81 said:
3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?

I HATE the operation of the climate control system. Fortunately they redesigned that part in 2013.

coach81 said:
4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?

You certainly can. However, I think L1 can be dangerous due to the poor suitability of the 120V connector for this purpose. I upgraded the L1 charger to L2 and plug it into a twist-locking plug.

coach81 said:
5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?

Yes. Frankly, the QC equipment out in the field are notoriously unreliable and there often is just one in a given location. Even L2 EVSEs are sometimes dead. IMO Tesla is the only company who has thought through quick charging thoroughly.

grandizer52 · Jul 28, 2016

coach81 said:
My Ford Fusion Hybrid of 4 years has been acting up.. thinking about the leaf... again... questions for current owners:

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?
Got a used 2011, did ALOT of homework including visiting Nissan headquarters in 2010,11 and 12, it's like driving an IPOD

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.
how it zips in and out of traffic, how you can sit in and and not huff exhaust, while messing on the phone with the A/C on

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?
think everyone has this one...range...not a huge deal here, think the other is the same everyone has, lack of public chargers...over time this should get rectified.

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?
work is 9.32 miles each way...yes, but it would bug the crap out of me, cause I did that the first 2 months I had the leaf till I found the right L2.

5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?
I have a Motorwerks charger, any tech questions they answer ludicrously fast, my charger had a fault and a tech walked me through getting it back in service over the phone...I'm not an electronics guy, but was that day.

My advice....get one, you'll love it unless you have 60 mile commute, and no charger on the other end....hell come to hawaii, I'll let you drive mine

Thanks in advance,
Coach

gregn · Jul 28, 2016

coach81 said:
My Ford Fusion Hybrid of 4 years has been acting up.. thinking about the leaf... again... questions for current owners:

Thanks in advance,
Coach

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?

Yes, for my use it's perfect. I haven't had to change my driving habits and the cost savings is huge.

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.

Zero Emissions, the main reason I bought the car. Then the driving experience.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?

None really. Obviously a bit more range would make it better.

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?

I drive 64 miles per day and use L1. So yes you would be fine.
If I drive the secondary roads which are posted at 50 mph I get 100% in the morning after L1. If I use the interstate both ways at 65 mph I end up with less in the morning but still plenty to do that same again the next day. If I dip below what will work I just do a short ( 10 min) QC session and I'm back on track. I live where there are a lot of charging options so if on a day I run more miles I can hit a QC to make up what I need.

5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?

Once the QC I usually use was down for a day. so I used the one a coulee of miles up the road that is on the way to work. I did a trip to Boston, MA from Montpelier, VT a while back and there was an issues with one of the QCs on the route but the other one next to it worked fine.

If you get a 2016 SV you will be very happy. If you routinely need more than 100 miles range then it would require planning but still work. I'm sure in a few years there will be 200 mile cars around other than Tesla but with typical leases only 3 years you would be well within that window with the current Leaf.

Marktm · Jul 28, 2016

coach81 said:
1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?

6 months of ownership of a 2012 - the following additional suggestions:

1. Being from Louisiana, find a 2013 (6.6KW charger), that will degrade below 9 bars before the 5 year/60,000 mile warrantee runs out. Make sure it does and use Leaf Spy to help. Put in a Level II home charger for sure and keep it topped off so you can make a max miles trip at any time (could be unexpected). This helps get your new battery also.
2. Find one that is low mileage in really good condition (they are out there) and show it off to all your friends as a wonderful commuter vehicle and will most likely get a new technology battery for free - spread the word!
3. My 2012 has a 3.3KW charger - ONLY complaint. I've saved 200 gallons of gasoline burned - for about $100 in electricity.

kubel · Jul 28, 2016

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?
I was a 2012 lessee. In retrospect, I should have waited for the 2013 or held out a few years later and bought a 2013 used. I'm currently back to driving a gas car, doing just that- waiting. I would not buy new. Leasing is also problematic now that they have adjusted residual values. Used is the best way to go.

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.
Things that make the "EV grin": Instant torque, silent propulsion, linear power delivery. The cars hatchback design is practical. The car is very roomy. It's overall a nice car.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?
Battery sucks. Excessive degradation. With bigger packs now, it becomes less troublesome. Regenerative braking is weak. Grabby brakes. The current body design fails the small overlap test.

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?
Yes but I would still recommend a L2 EVSE if you want to rely on the car as your primary vehicle.

5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?
I didn't have CHAdeMO. When I first leased my car, there wasn't a single station in my state. Now there are close to a dozen in my area. I imagine this is a huge inconvenience if your trip is dependent on non-working stations. This tends to be a problem with non-Tesla DC fast chargers. I rarely relied on public L2 charging either. I've encountered a few non-functional L2 stations, but ICEing was a bigger problem. Use the PlugShare app to determine the reliability of stations in your area.

Levenkay · Jul 28, 2016

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?
Thanks partly to some odd circumstances, I've owned a 2011SL, a 2012SL, and now own a 2016SL. The last purchase I regret somewhat, feeling that I should have waited for the next crop of larger-range vehicles. I also regret that the 2016's 30kWh battery doesn't help much on (fortunately rare) long-distance trips , because it overheats two to three times more quickly when repetitively QCed than the 24kWh packs did.

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.
Silent, peaceful driving experience. Low maintenance. Benefiting the nation's environment and economy.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?
Failure to provide battery cooling. And it didn't have to be much cooling; even cooling that only works during DC fast-charging would probably suffice. For Pete's sake; the CHAdeMO cables are thicker than tugboat hawsers anyway, why don't they contain a hose for squirting cooling air over the pack's modules? On the pre-2013 models, inefficient cabin heater. Innumerable shortcomings in Nav user interface.

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?
My commute IS 20 miles/day, so I could easily survive on just an L1 charger. But since you undoubtedly mean "the L1 EVSE that came with the car", I have to say that stowing and unstowing the cable on a daily basis would become intolerable after about, oh, the second day. Yes, one can leave the provided L1 EVSE in one's garage more or less permanently, but I value the reassurance of having the thing with me for its intended "emergency" use.

5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?
I take several trips of 220-ish miles (one way) per year, which rely on a string of mostly Aerovironment DCQC stations that have only one connection at each location (plus one L2), so setting out on these trips is kind of an anxious affair - particularly since I try to set out in the wee small cold hours in hopes of postponing the battery's cooking as long as possible. I do check the most current reports of station status on the Web before departing (and have postponed a trip once because a station was out of service). Luckily, I've made a couple hundred QC charges over the past five years without being stranded yet, although I have had to contact station owners by telephone a couple times to have them remotely reboot the equipment ("Och, it's vurra, vurra complex: no' only does it have tae turn ON, but OFF as weell..."). I have encountered inoperative Blink stations a couple times, but was able to divert to an alternate nearby station.

Nubo · Jul 28, 2016

coach81 said:
My Ford Fusion Hybrid of 4 years has been acting up.. thinking about the leaf... again... questions for current owners:

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?

5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?

Thanks in advance,
Coach

1. Yes. I've been very happy with the vehicle. On my 2nd lease.
2. Best thing is my "fuel" is delivered while I sleep, and each morning I awake to a "full tank" ready to go.
3. The suspension sucks donkey balls.
4. 30 miles per day is entirely doable with an L1 as long as you have a reliable 7 or 8 hour charging window. L2 is preferable as it is more flexible and more energy-efficient. With L1, make sure your outlet and wiring are top-notch. A dedicated 20-amp circuit would be best. Continuous 12-amp loads are uncommon with typical household circuits. L2 has a safety advantage, imo, because heavy loads are expected on 240V circuits.
5. I rarely use public charging, although I have on occasion, including a SF-LA round-trip. I have never run out of charge.

bbrowncods · Jul 29, 2016

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?
Yes. I bought and capitalized on 0% financing and rebate for using NMAC, tax rebate, and "below invoice sale". Even with those benefits I have seen gems where someone bought a new Leaf and turned it back in, backing out on the sale. Used is definitely better. As any used car you will need to weigh the age, mileage, and cost.

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.
One of the things that I had not expected was the joy of not buying gas. It is one of those things in life that you just get used to doing, and it is really kind of liberating to not have to stop your trip and seeing money going into the tank. My "energy" costs per mile is almost free (1 cent a mile). At 2 years old and 27K miles the 2014 Leaf has cost $0 maintenance, $250/month in fuel savings (includes not driving vehicle #2), a $50-75 decrease in electric bill by capitalizing on residential EV rates. These savings almost cover my payment. The car itself is really a great automobile.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?
If I had to pick a single annoyance it would be the NAV is not really friendly to use. That may have changed since 2014.

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?
Yes you can survive. I drive 25miles total commute. A L2 really allows you do additional, and opens up the range. It allows us to use the Leaf instead of car #2 (another benefit of saving gas).

grandizer52 · Jul 30, 2016

Nubo said:
coach81 said:

My Ford Fusion Hybrid of 4 years has been acting up.. thinking about the leaf... again... questions for current owners:

1. If you could do it again, would you still buy, why or why not?

2. Overall Best about the vehicle.

3. Biggest complaint about the vehicle?

4. If you don't drive much normally 20 - 30 miles daily.. could you survive with just L1 charger?

5. I've heard of Chargers not operating anymore / vandalized, etc.. is this a problem for you?

Thanks in advance,
Coach

Click to expand...

1. Yes. I've been very happy with the vehicle. On my 2nd lease.
2. Best thing is my "fuel" is delivered while I sleep, and each morning I awake to a "full tank" ready to go. Agree'd
3. The suspension sucks donkey balls. Agree'd
4. 30 miles per day is entirely doable with an L1 as long as you have a reliable 7 or 8 hour charging window. L2 is preferable as it is more flexible and more energy-efficient. With L1, make sure your outlet and wiring are top-notch. A dedicated 20-amp circuit would be best. Continuous 12-amp loads are uncommon with typical household circuits. L2 has a safety advantage, imo, because heavy loads are expected on 240V circuits.
5. I rarely use public charging, although I have on occasion, including a SF-LA round-trip. I have never run out of charge.

On the fence... questions for current owners

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